Ambush!!!

[gjts00]

Wouldn't it make sense to give certain infantry like units the ability to lay in wait to ambush their foes? The system could be very simply implemented...Add an order for said unit to (A)mbush. After the end of the next full turn the unit would be concealed until the ambush is canceled, or an enemy unit enters the same square. For instance, a unit in the square next to the ambush unit would not even be aware of the ambushers' presence if/until the moved into the same square. Where upon the ambushing unit would be given a bonus toward their attack factor (the element of surprise). Conversely, the ambushee would suffer a defense penalty (having been surprised). From that point on combat would be conducted as normal.

I think that with this idea in place, combat would be enhanced while not adding too much depth & clutter. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/Instagib.gif" border=0>

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Thou who goes to bed with an itchy butt wakes up with a smelly finger.

[This message has been edited by gjts00 (edited April 17, 2001).]

 

[Mongol Horde]

I don't really like ideas that that make the military aspect more complex rather than more simple. I am not too sure on my views on this one.

Couldn't this be incorporated into the sentry command though i.e. any unit that is woken from its sentry by an enemy unit gets a slight attack bonus againt that unit?

 

[gjts00]

Originally posted by Mongol Horde:
I don't really like ideas that that make the military aspect more complex rather than more simple. I am not too sure on my views on this one.

Couldn't this be incorporated into the sentry command though i.e. any unit that is woken from its sentry by an enemy unit gets a slight attack bonus againt that unit?

I agree that too many new complex features would detract from the quality of the game. But, this idea could be very simply added. It would be nothing more than a new order in the window for infantry type units.

No, this doesn't fit under the sentry command, because sentries pull guard duty & don't necessarily attack upon contact with a different element, and aren't always hidden/concealed. Whereas an ambush will attack upon contact & during preparations for an ambush great care is is taken to conceal the unit conducting said ambush. Therefore an ambushing unit deserves a major offensive bonus, conversely the defender should suffer an equal defensive penalty due to the element of surprise (a concept that is not clearly conveyed as yet in the game).

As a former Airborne Ranger, I can tell you firsthand that (when properly performed) there is no more violent or effective form of attack in modern conventional combat.



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Thou who goes to bed with an itchy butt wakes up with a smelly finger.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

The Ambush idea is a good one. I think it should be a multi-turn action, like a settler constructing a fortress. The time taken should reflect the terrain. One turn in Mountains or Swamp, 2 in Forest or Jungle, 3 in Hills or Desert, like 5-10 in Plains, Tundra, or Arctic. The unit should disappear immediately when it begins, but if it is bumped into or moved next to, it should become visible, and have to start over. No unit should be able to stack with it, and spies-diplomats should be able to 'unambush' it, ruining its preparations even when fully concealed.

The command should be made available upon discovery of Tactics. No!! The command should be available first with Warrior Code, obsoleted with Metallurgy, and made available again by by Tactics. That would reflect the effect of Gunpowder and Explosives on ambush tactics. I mean, a bunch of Musketeers or Riflemen marching down the road gets ambushed by Archers, so what? They open fire at much greater effectiveness, and the ambush becomes a rout. Same thing happens with Calvary and Alpine Troops doing the ambush, someone's gonna die, fast. Even Mech Infantry. (Unless their leader has teamed them with a Howitzer and grants Ambush Detection.)

 

[Mongol Horde]

I didn't mean that an ambush was the same thing as a sentry, I just think that it would be better if it were "dumbed down" and incorporated into the sentry command for greater simplicity.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

A very interesting concept. I like the idea that it takes time to set up the ambush based on terrain. Otherwise it could be too easy to do.

Perhaps another aspect(the "bonus" of surprise) is that when a unit moves to a square next to the ambush, the ambush unit immediatly engages the moving unit but the typical roles are reversed. The unit that is moving uses it's defensive value, while the unit that was in Ambush mode uses it's attack value. Furthermore, the "ambushee's" effectiveness may be further decreased if it has been travelling down a road and has less than one full movement left (i.e., "our troops are tired , proceed at 2/3 strength sire!" - although in this case you have no choice).

Imagine strolling down a road with your Vet Cavalry and with 1/3 move left you get ambushed by a lousy elephant. Because it takes time to reset the trap, you can only do it once, but it could be just enough to slow down an offensive coming at you (assuming the new AI can actually mount an offensive

)

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DEATH awaits you all...with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

 

[gjts00]

Keep in mind that mounted units would be exempt from this form of attack. It's pretty hard to hide an elephant, or even just to keep the mounts quiet! Only infantry type units would have this capability.

Even if a unit moved into an ajacent square the ambush unit should remain concealed. Ambushes are conducted at very close quarters.

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Thou who goes to bed with an itchy butt wakes up with a smelly finger.

 

[scorch]

good idea

 

[Algernon Pondlife]

Wow!!!!


platoon of sharpshooters hide up a tree with two years supply of sandwiches and coffee!!!!

real deep

Sorry, can't resist. But isn't this something for tactical battle games like Squad Leader or something?

posted by that horde of followers of Chinghis Khan
any unit that is woken from its sentry by an enemy unit gets a slight attack bonus againt that unit?

Now that is something else again. But I think it should be a defense bonus. I've often thought that sentry should be at least a bit towards the value of fortified since we are talking of an established position.
Thinking really deeply (well it is Sunday!), that actually factors in ambush in two ways: the sentry bonus is a bit like the effect of a defensive ambush and conversely, the fact that the non-sentry unit has lower defense describes its greater vulnerability in march formation, and that includes vulnerability to ambush.

The spin off benefit is that it makes simple military victories that little bit harder.

Of course you don't have to read all that detail into every combat situation, but if it cheers you up you can go through all the detailed aspects of combat that are being factored in to everything that you do.

I never liked squad leader anyway.

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"Ridicule can do much...but one thing is not given to it, to put a stop permanently to the incursion of new and powerful ideas"
-Aaron Nimzovitch

 

[Mongol Horde]

We actually follow Kublai and Genghis too.

I agree with you pondweed, It does make sense that that a sentried unit would have a little bit of a defence bonus, it just seems to make realistic sense. I don't think that their would be any harm in having a small attack bonus also for sentried units. After all in sentry mode they are essentially waiting for an attack so will have weapons primed etc. You like no?

 

[thealien_83]

Just imagine the poor bastards, lying in wait for their prey for two-three years. Talk about being bored to death...

 

[Supernaut]

Surely it should be easier to lay an ambush in rough terrain like a forest or hills than in open farmland? I really like the idea though - it could be useful for blocking moutain passes and other strategic locations. I also agree with what people have said about it only being infantry. It could make up a bit for a technology gap between the armies. It should be an essential ability for partisans - that would make it much harder to pacify a city if the partisans fled to the hills and you had to seek them out and destroy them (as the Germans found in Yugoslavia in WW2)

 

[Magnus]

how about if you can only find guerrilas if you either stumble upon their square, or you look at your city screen and any square they occupy produces nothing, however the units dont appear, so you KNOW something is there but not what type or how many.

 

[Dipolmatic Spy]

I don't like the idea of ambushes. They make war too comlicated plus the game is about CIVILIZATION, NOT WAR. I would rather play the game completely without offensive units, and play the whole game through diplomacy and trading.

 

[gjts00]

To say that war shouldn't be part of a game called civilization is absurd. War has done more to shape our world than any other single factor. Without armies to protect your trade routes or cities, there would be no commerce at all. Aside form the fact that, I enjoy the military aspect most of all.


The ambush system wouldn't complicate things at all really. All that would need to be added, is a new command on the unit orders screen, such as sleep or fortify (as I have already stated, I believe twice in this thread). What would be so complicated about that?

I would also like to address the issue about units lying in wait for years. That hadn't occurred to me, and is a good point. With this new consideration in mind, I would then recommend, that the ambush would only be able to be sustained for x number of turns.

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Don't sh*t where you eat.

[This message has been edited by gjts00 (edited May 08, 2001).]

 

[Algernon Pondlife]

You are taking more out of diplo's statement than he put in. He just said he preferred to avoid war. And he has a point. The scale of the game far transcends the kind of war that is represented in it. Consequently game wars can easily last a thousand years.

Now, I don't complain about that because the reason it is there is to allow a resolution of technological developments and the realization of strategic decisions in a playable manner. Also I rather enjoy a bit of silicon conflict.

However the idea of having ambushes, as I have no doubt said before, is absurd at this scale. It may be fun, but it has nothing to do with the game whether it makes it more complicated or not.

At the level of wargame for which ambush is applicable as a mechanism (and therefore as a tactic) you would want detailed supply arrangements (possibly to the extent of having supply units shuffling about between the front and the empire) and probably depletion of ammunition. I somehow cannot see how counting bullets contributes to a game covering the vast sweep of civilzation.

Also as I have said before, the game engine is capable of being used in other contexts, with less emphasis on research and development and more on production so that it is easy to develop a game with short timescales and lots more military detail. SMAC is an example of this in practice.

Also (2) as I have said before, if you want to play wargames (with or without ambush rules) then there are tons out there. So go play them.

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Nothing is too wonderful to be true

 

[henmike_sigo]

Throughout history, armies have always used lookouts of some sort, Forward Observers (FO) and Observation Post/Listening Posts (OP/LP) are the modern versions of this. I'm thinking maybe Ambush would be best if it only allowed units (certain ground types) to go 'invisible' to opponents and then for a limited time period. Also, I'm not sure reversing Attack/Defense would be good simply because I could push cheap units like phalanx or pikemen forward and possibly defeat more powerful units like archers or elephants. Personally, I think it should best be left out because time is unrealistic enough in Civilization without expecting units to go into ambush mode for a century or two (based on early deity play).

 

[MummyMan]

This ould be grounds for an exellent addition to Civ 3. This sounds to me like a submarine on land. I don't think the offensive unit should get a bonus. The fact that the unit is hiding is the bonus. It should only be available to ertain units for that special reason, or new unit. Like a ninja. I think it should only be possible in certain terrain squares. I mean, how could a ninja for instance hide in a plain?

 

[BorderPatrol]

The ninja could hide in a field of corn.

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If you cross the border, you better have your green card!