American UHV redux

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, I've wasted the better part of 2 days trying my hardest to get the American UHV. I've restarted several times. Here's what happened:
1st try: Got the double units; thought it was home free. Problem is Spain has all of Mexico and West Coast. Got the 2 tiny English cities with no infrastructure. Got the Statue (just in the nick of time), captured Santa Fe and San Antonio, thankfully Aztec spawned but became their vassal. Even built the Pentagon in 1870. By 1880 it was clear that even with infantry I cannot get them to kill all those entrenched riflemen (4 per city with several cavalry) without artillery. And I'm 2 techs behind and will never get to Mass media before someone else builds the UN. Gave up.
2nd try: single units, New York is owned by Netherlands, Germany (of all countries) has Florida, and England is a super power (400 score ahead of Germany) with 5 cities in NAm. So captured all of the English cities (Germany and Netherlands gave up their cities without a fight). The SAME turn I build the Statue Germany builds the Pentagon (should have suspected that if they have infantry I'm too late). Gave up again.
3rd try: France is the dominant power, with Quebec, New Orleans. Only got 2 cities on flip (New York and St Augustine). Spain owns the whole of Mexico and the West Coast again. Gave up.

I'm really tempted to start out as the English, forgo all the English UHV conditions and build only in NAm, and give all my cities and techs to the Americans when they spawn.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Tried it again. No luck--I conquered all of the European colonies, and even before I discover Democracy, Germany builds the Pentagon in 1770's or so. I think that now the statue is possible, the AI needs to be told to hold off the Pentagon!!

 

[flaming_iles]

I guess you've probably tried this but whenever I play as the Americans I try to get as many great engineers as I can, i.e assigning engineer specialists/building forges...

what difficulty level are you playing on?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Monarch level (Viceroy is easily doable since nobody gets to Industrialism or Democracy in time)

I think the perfect storm would need the following elements (at least for the 600AD start):
1. France is dead and Netherlands has expanded all the way to Bordeaux.
2. England builds only 3-4 cities of which 2 will flip to you, and is behind the continental powers in tech
3. Spain builds St. Augustine and maybe New Orleans but doesn't build anything else on the West Coast
4. Aztec survives the conquerors and isn't vassalized by a European civ. If they do collapse, they need to be reborn and vassalized under a non European civ (e.g. Turkey, Arabia)
5. Maya reborn is good too so that their cities can't be demanded (usually if Tikal or Chichen Itza are native they will be ceded to a European civ)
6. Germany, Turkey and Russia at each other's throats and don't have time to build wonders.

Spain is usually behind in tech which helps, but theocracy makes their units doubly hard to kill. Netherlands usually goes for the cultural wonders (instead of the Statue and Pentagon). Whoever gets Rome (be it France or Germany) will most definitely get to Industrialism in the 1750's and build the Pentagon soon thereafter.

In my first game I had everything except for 3 (Spain was the dominant empire).

I'm going to try the 3000BC start, but I think Rome is going to get the Pentagon again (since it usually does with its tech lead)

 

[Corm]

I done it on the last patch on Monarch so ill give it a try with the new one and let you know how I get on. I dont like going the USA because of the Wonder Rush and tight luck based timing but ill give it a whirl and see if I have any joy.

I really think you have just been unlucky though. Oh and I tried the 3000AD one a few times and the situation was always much worse and the Euros always way more advanced.

 

[Tweakee]

I just won the American UHV, I used the 3000BC start (did some yard work while it ran through the turns).

On the 600AD start, it seems highly likely that multiple civs will be quite advanced and intently colonizing the western hemisphere. On the 3000BC start, it's more likely that wars and plagues will wreak some havoc with AI advancement. In my game, France and England each had a few cities in NA, Holland had New York (flipped), Spain had northen SA and San Antonio (Surprisingly the AIs gave it to me in the continental congress - they must have hated Spain). Nobody had colonized the western US coast (and no one did till I finally took it by default around 1930), no one had colonized Cuba/Dominican, and the civs seemed to have just gotten Rifles.

I used an Engineer to help with Statue of Liberty, but the other two I had no competition for. I quickly got ahead in military tech vs my main rival Mongolia (I needed his vassal's Oil), and nobody had enough presence in the western hemisphere to do more than annoy me by pillaging fish.

I won the UHV around 1970, and owned all of NA and most of Brazil and Persia (for Oil). Just the few turns headstart that 3600 years of plagues and wars can give you should be enough to make this UHV possible now, since the AI is no longer building the Statue before you even spawn. The 600AD start seems less likely to be playable, as the AI will likely be too far ahead of you when you spawn.

 

[CyberChrist]

Whoever gets Rome (be it France or Germany) will most definitely get to Industrialism in the 1750's and build the Pentagon soon thereafter.

This seems to be at the core of the problem. AIs are advancing in tech far too fast on their own - reaching Industrialism a good 150 years before it happened in the real world should be a freak occurance and not the common rule.

Not sure if this would actually help, but maybe Renaissance techs (and up) needs to be increased a good deal in cost. Perhaps also letting tech cost be dependant of how many active civs there are (to deal with the 'tech trade frenzy' that normally goes on between the AIs). Ie. if many civs have fallen, let tech be slightly cheaper - if many are still up and running, let techs be more expensive.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I must be really unlucky (as compared to Tweakee). In my 3000BC start, Rome was dead, Germany was a super power (has France and Rome's spawn site, and captured half of the Viking cities). They also had New Orleans (called it something else). Promptly declared war on me when I got Florida (which they called Ebenezer). They had Industrialism by 1780 and upgraded all to infantry.
And they built the Statue 1 move before I did (even after I had a great engineer invested in it).
I'll try it again with a different load (another hour of waiting)...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I don't know if it's just me or my computer. I got slightly more lucky this time with the 3000BC start: I got the Statue, the Pentagon, and was on my way to clear the 2 remaining Spanish island cities. Then France hits me with building the UN!! I'm going to have to go back to 1832 when I build the Pentagon.
I'm going to have to declare war on French soil, it seems. There's no guarantee since both England and Netherlands have electricity (so potentially both of them have mass media)
Tweakee, how did you get to Electricity to Radio to Mass media in time?

 

[Corm]

Tried 2 600AD starts and 1 3000AD start. In 3000AD (which I just quit) The Statue was built in France about 3 turns before I was able to get Democracy through trade, well extortion from the Netherlands but anyway...failed.

The first 600AD start I done alright managing to get the Statue by rushing a GE and slave whipping research and finance buildings in all my cities. When I started England declared on me and I got a ton of Cuirisars or however they are spealt from Jacksonville (French city) along with lots of galleons and 3 frigates from English holdings in Boston and New York. I took out Toronto, Halifax and Fort York early, Settled Cuba, Seattle, Vancouver, New Orleans and LA. Went to war with France and took Fort Detroit from them along with Mexico city and another Mexican city. All was going well or so I thought. I was getting my invasion ready for the Middle East oil rush and rushing to build the Pentagon having used one GE on it when France built the United Nations!

The 2nd 600AD start someone built the statue 10 turns before I researched Democracy so I quit.

 

[mungman]

I've had pretty much the same problem as everyone else on this. AI techs too fast, they have infantry and artillery while I've got rifles and cannons in late 1700's to 1800's, which also results in Europe getting the Pentagon somewhere in the 1800's. And this is on every game, even when I'm in Europe, the AI is able to fly through pre-industrial and industrial, much faster than IRL. Some adjustments should be made.

 

[Tweakee]

In my game, the AI hated Mass Media. They made no effort to research it, and offered nothing (map+50 gold, yay!) for it in trade before or after I built UN.

There's definitely luck involved with regards to plagues and wars and collapses when it comes to where the AI's tech will be when you start. That's why I prefer the 3000BC start - it gives more chances for the AI to be hurt by those events. The 600AD start provides a pretty optimal situation for the AI to grow from.

France seems to be the most likely monkey wrench, they built the wonders before me in my 600AD starts, just like you guys seem to be seeing. It might have helped me to have been at war with France pretty constantly from when I spawned. I took their 4-5 cities in the US, then blockaded their ports in europe. By the time I was done, they were near the bottom of the score chart. After that, Mongolia was the only civ that was very strong, and they're so far away, and not a tech threat, so that worked out great. England, Spain, Portugal, and Holland were all threats, but none had a good combination of tech and power - Dutch had tech but no army, England and Spain had army but no tech, Portugal ended up with both, but I outteched them.

I used engineers on all 3 wonders and kept my rivals busy with war, but there's still likely a lot of luck involved.

My best strategic advice would be to declare war on almost anyone who has the tech needed for one of those wonders. You need them distracted, and you don't need many allies to win the UHV. When I won, most of the major nations HATED me, since I'd pushed them out of NA and stolen their oil. I'd only managed a few allies like Russia and Germany that were nonthreats and liked warring with my enemies. I had to deal with constant wars and unrest from declining congress city-swaps and defying apolistic decrees against me. Just assume you're going to be a villain, and enjoy it.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Tweakee, I came to the same conclusions as you did. You basically have to declare war on whoever has the tech (France was the only one with Mass media (and in 1830 too) and I had to collapse them. Then I built the UN and was home free basically. (it was still touch and go with Portugal, a vassal of Germany, having infantry in Chichen Itza, but they were no match for Navy SEALs)
I finally became unstable right at the turn I won (since I took so many Arabian and Turkish cities). The American economy (which I converted to State Property) and occupation civic saved my ass.

 

[onedreamer]

I'm considering activating no tech brokering or no tech trading in the mod to see if the tech advancement from the middle age and on is slowed down. As it is now it seriously cripples (or helps too much, see Russia) late UHV goals based on dates.

 

[Ryry]

Recently I have been trying America 'cause I want to play a "modern game", i.e. a game that historically represents the 19th century, and probably the 20th. But , inevitably, the world in 1733 in RFC is not the world as it truely was in 1733.

It is close sometimes. But not exact. And sometimes quite different. Not a complaint, just a fact.

What about if we could have a 1733 start? OR, better yet and 1865 start? Or something like that? You know: RFC MODERN WORLD.

I really wanna have a cold war with Russia..... and see if it gets hot and who wins....

Ryry

 

[Tweakee]

A modern-era start (with new UHVs for the modern civs) could be a lot of fun.

 

[onedreamer]

yeah good idea.