Analysis of New UU's

[colony]

Last I checked swordsmen required a whole extra technology to research - one that's considerably more expensive than bronze working - before they can be built.

Relative to the vulture, the axemen is a jack-of-all-trades. The vulture is a city taker.

Agreed, a strength 6 unit at BW could turn out to be very powerful if the AI still uses a lot of Archers for defence. Combine it with the Ziggarut and I think early domination just got that much easier. I'll definately be trying these out after the first game or 2.

The Holkan looks good too, but the cost might be a bit of a problem that early on.

 

[Simplicity2]

It's true that swordsmen require a later tech, but vultures are going to be less effective than swordsmen at taking cities. And I've never found swordsmen to be all that great at taking cities from archers in the first place (it's their specialty, but their edge is pretty darned small). Take away that
+10% city attack and swordsmen are not that great.

So the window of opportunity then for vultures to be city-takers is that space between Bronze Working and Iron Working. Once Iron Working hits, if you want city-takers, you should be building swordsmen. So the slogan for vultures should be "When you absolutely, positively want to take a city, but can't be bothered to take the Iron Working tech for some reason."

You want to be a warlord, Iron Working should probably be rather high on your priority list, no? If only so you can take the irons away from your enemies.

Now, maybe there's something to having a force that can go either way... But a couple of vultures on top of a swordsman stack should still be a better way to go if you want to actually take something.

 

[AlessioCerci]

It's true that swordsmen require a later tech, but vultures are going to be less effective than swordsmen at taking cities. And I've never found swordsmen to be all that great at taking cities from archers in the first place (it's their specialty, but their edge is pretty darned small). Take away that
+10% city attack and swordsmen are not that great.

So the window of opportunity then for vultures to be city-takers is that space between Bronze Working and Iron Working. Once Iron Working hits, if you want city-takers, you should be building swordsmen. So the slogan for vultures should be "When you absolutely, positively want to take a city, but can't be bothered to take the Iron Working tech for some reason."

You want to be a warlord, Iron Working should probably be rather high on your priority list, no? If only so you can take the irons away from your enemies.

Now, maybe there's something to having a force that can go either way... But a couple of vultures on top of a swordsman stack should still be a better way to go if you want to actually take something.

Obviously you've never done an axe rush:
Horde of Axemen, +0 +4 (Great General)
- National Wonder (1 Necessary)
- Gives A Number Of Free Cities
- Prevents Barbarians From Entering Borders On Continent
Requires Bronze Working and (Copper or Iron)
525 (Double Production Speed With Whip)

(yes i know its frob's sig but it is very fitting here)

Seriously the vulture is one of the best UUs.

 

[Thedrin]

So the window of opportunity then for vultures to be city-takers is that space between Bronze Working and Iron Working. Once Iron Working hits, if you want city-takers, you should be building swordsmen. So the slogan for vultures should be "When you absolutely, positively want to take a city, but can't be bothered to take the Iron Working tech for some reason."

Why the rush for iron working? I may wish to persue economic civics - priesthood and writing - and put iron working down my list of priorites. This is something I'll often do with 'generic civ' if I get copper with bronze working. Early research of iron working usually only occurs if I'm surrounded by jungle, playing as the Romans, or don't have access to either copper or horses.

"but can't be bothered to take the Iron Working tech for some reason."

As the Sumerians with access to copper, and assuming you're not surrounded by jungle, what good reason is their to research iron working early on?

 

[Polycrates]

I understand the Phalanx as strong... (Though it can be countered with axemen).

The vulture... just doesn't seem all that strong to me. It's not quite as good as a swordsman with shock. eh. About even with axemen. I'm assuming the chariot bonus applies against them? If it does... there's their counter.
What is their strength exactly? City-attack? No, swordsmen do that. Melee? Not anymore than axemen.

I guess if you only want a single unit, then it's not bad as a jack-of-all trades, but that seems like a foolish way to go to me...

I was sceptical about it too, but it's turned out to be a real powerhouse. Firstly, it comes a tech earlier than swords (and it's an expensive tech early on), and doesn't require having and hooking up another resource. So if you're axe rushing (which you really should be with a UU like that), you've got a very significant advantage during that time.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it's got an advantage over swords in city attack now that the AI builds mixed-stack city defense, including other axes. You can have a lot of trouble bringing that extra strength to bear with swords when there's defensive axes, whereas the Vulture has no such worries since it does just as well vs axes as a regular axeman anyway. So it's a premier city-attacker, I've found.
Plus they're not countered quite as overwhelmingly by chariots (give them some terrain and it's a pretty even fight), and it only takes a single spearman in a stack to stop chariot attacks dead.

 

[robcheng]

Dog Soldier-

This *BULLDOG* of a unit has some real *BITE*. Why worry about hooking up copper when you can whip rush a small army of these for a free win?

Um...because you can't take cities with them?

 

[Thedrin]

Um...because you can't take cities with them?

Maybe not but they can be built early enough that you can prevent an opponent from getting access to horses - even if you can't see horses you can still see pastures. Without risk of being attacked by chariots there's little that a dog soldier need fear while destroying your opponents economy. Sending/keeping them back in the stone age will give you plenty of time to research swords or horse archers for city raiding.

 

[PeanutBomb]

I'm surprised no one likes the Holkan, its a very early (pre bronze working) 4 strength unit. If you rush someone's copper, the only possible counter to it will be stacks of archers..

..it seems like it will be a great early rush unit, though not as great as the quecha.

Well, holkan needs BW. I guess it's not as early as you think.

Spoiler :

Maya have mining but no hunting, so you need to reserch hunting, too.
I think it's most use is counter chariot rush, they don't afraid resource destroying.

 

[Snoopaloop]

I didn't know the Holkan required bronze working eventhough it doesn't require bronze. I'm quite disappointed with that news...thanks for informing me though PBomb

 

[dankok8]

The East Indiaman
Like a regular galleon but with +1 cargo space, +2 strength and an ability to explore rival territory. This unit is a shield saver. You can build less transport ships since this unit has a higher carrying capacity and less fighting vessels (frigates, ships of the line) as this unit has a higher attack strength and can hold its own ground against these fighting vessels at decent odds. Moreover, it rules the seas until your enemies obtain astronomy and chemistry for frigates against enemy galleons and caravels. Finally, there is no need to build any caravels to explore rival territory since these units can also perform this task on top of those listed above.

 

[Snoopaloop]

Another advantage of the east indiaman is that it will be the only galleon that can directly confront a privateer, both are 6 strength. The privateer comes later than the galleon (chemistry), so the east indiaman will not have to rush to chemistry to defend against a group of unknown privateers..

 

[Otsoga]

Well, holkan needs BW. I guess it's not as early as you think.

Spoiler :

Maya have mining but no hunting, so you need to reserch hunting, too.
I think it's most use is counter chariot rush, they don't afraid resource destroying.

This news hurts my feelings.

 

[diablodelmar]

So has the Phalanx been changed?

The East Indiaman
Like a regular galleon but with +1 cargo space, +2 strength and an ability to explore rival territory. This unit is a shield saver. You can build less transport ships since this unit has a higher carrying capacity and less fighting vessels (frigates, ships of the line) as this unit has a higher attack strength and can hold its own ground against these fighting vessels at decent odds. Moreover, it rules the seas until your enemies obtain astronomy and chemistry for frigates against enemy galleons and caravels. Finally, there is no need to build any caravels to explore rival territory since these units can also perform this task on top of those listed above.

I think you might be refering to hammers. Shields were Civ 3, matey.

 

[Innawerkz]

So has the Phalanx been changed?

The new Phalanx is godly. It is now an Axeman replacement, includes the +50% vs. Mêlée & has +100% vs. Chariots.

Nigh invulnerable until the advent of Horse Archers.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Why the rush for iron working? I may wish to persue economic civics - priesthood and writing - and put iron working down my list of priorites. This is something I'll often do with 'generic civ' if I get copper with bronze working. Early research of iron working usually only occurs if I'm surrounded by jungle, playing as the Romans, or don't have access to either copper or horses.

"but can't be bothered to take the Iron Working tech for some reason."

As the Sumerians with access to copper, and assuming you're not surrounded by jungle, what good reason is their to research iron working early on?

I can't agree more...and while your opponents are going for Iron Working, you could be going for the Catapult Tech or Horsback riding The Vulture opens up doors my friends...

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

The new Phalanx is godly. It is now an Axeman replacement, includes the +50% vs. Mêlée & has +100% vs. Chariots.

Nigh invulnerable until the advent of Horse Archers.

Is it 50% or 25%? The screenshot I saw said 25%??? But, this is still a great UU IMHO.

 

[Tsukasa]

the new flanking system makes the landsknecht even stronger.
now you need strong anti "horse" units to protect your siege units from flanking damage / flanking kills. (see this post: flanking attack) and you need more smaller stacks to lower the amount of damaged siege units caused by a successful flank attack. more smaller stacks means it is good to have a unit which is strong against mounted units and meele units...

i cant wait to test the new flanking system! i hope this is the end of the catapult SODs in mp games.

 

[Innawerkz]

Is it 50% or 25%? The screenshot I saw said 25%??? But, this is still a great UU IMHO.

My source from the "I got it" thread. Add Alexander's Combat 1 from Aggressive and you have a beast of a unit.

(Thanks, frob, for the easy-to-find' index)

 

[azzaman333]

The flank attack can kill catapults without them ever seeing combat, I think.

 

[Tzu Iop]

The flank attack can kill catapults without them ever seeing combat, I think.

The flanking unit must survive the combat to cause flanking damage and after all i think it works similar to collateral damage, so there will be a cap of maximum damage caused by flanking attacks.

edit:

Cataphract:
Much like a regular knight except for a 2 point strength increase and no immunity to 1st strikes. No immunity to 1st strikes should roughly balance with the increased strength, making cataphracts no more efficient at taking cities defended by longbowmen than knights. However, the increase in strength makes them significantly less vulnerable to the only counter to medieval mounted units (pikeman) and I think this makes the cataphract a pretty strong UU and one of my personal favorites. This unit is like a knight at city taking, but generally stronger in field combat and for pillaging purposes because of its increased strength.

I think the cataphract will be a decent UU, since it benefits much more from the strength promotion and also you get first strike immunity with Flanking II and 5 EP aren't that much.