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Another WW2 scenario

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Scenarios' started by rhettrongun, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. Ghandi Khan

    Ghandi Khan Chieftain

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    I've never seen the US take a single island from Japan, even in my games where I have started them at war with each other. Not saying it's impossible... just doesn't happen very often.

    As for Americans being isolationist... even if many Americans wanted to stay out of the war in Europe, the fact remains that the US government was actively supporting the allies. Germany had been sinking US supply ships and the Americans had been supplying France, the UK and China with weapons, munitions, food... even pilots. Though war had not officially been declared... we were clearly siding with the Allies even prior to 1940.
    Without scripted events in the scenario, Japan will almost certainly not declare war on the USA, and it remains extremely unlikely that the US will enter the war at all. I already made an argument before about the canonical Ally and Axis powers of WW2: that being USA/UK/USSR vs. Germany/Italy/Japan.
    If you want to play an alternate war where it's SuperFrance/UK vs. Germany/Italy... with an unrelated one-sided war taking place between Japan and China... Russia as a wildcard and the USA as an unimportant bystander... that's fine. If you want to play a game with the canonical Allies vs. the Axis powers... then you have to set it up as I have. Either that or put in scripted events.

    I'm not saying my way is necessarily better... but I like it better. I was putting the suggestion out there for others who might want to try fooling around with WorldBuilder and modding the scenario in a similar way. IMO it makes it feel more historically accurate and improves balance.
     
  2. dlmt3

    dlmt3 Chieftain

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    Every game ive played japan attacked the US so yeah.

    But no. Hitler tryed desperately to keep the US out of the war, and would never touch a supply ship of theirs. While yes the US did supply Britain and later Russia with weaponry, they did it in as much secrecy as possible, even when Hitler sent subs down near canada he made sure to leave the US alone knowing that it would spell disaster if they entered. Until Japan screwed up and Hitler wanted to defend his ally.
     
  3. Ghandi Khan

    Ghandi Khan Chieftain

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    How many times have you played this scenario? I've done it at least 10 or more times. NEVER has the US EVER taken anything from Japan or Germany. I'm not saying it can't happen.. but... I guarantee you that what you described happening in the first 15 turns will not happen.

    Read my more detailed accounts of how my scenario has played out if you want to go back and look for them. If you make the alterations that I discussed Aug 4 6:51 am... then the scenario typically plays out like this, in this order:
    1. Germany takes Warsaw, Belgium and France almost immediately.
    2. Japan takes Hong Kong and Manchuria almost immediately.
    3. Russia takes Finland.
    4. Italy takes Tunisia.
    5. Japan pushes farther into China, usually stopping after taking Beijing or Shanghai. Sometimes they also take over Singapore, the Philippines, and/or IndoChina.
    6. After several turns of attrition, the Russians are able to turn back the Germans and take Poland, Romania, and/or Hungary. England frequently stages an amphibious invasion of either northern France or Belgium. Sometimes they manage to hold on to this territory, sometimes not.
    7. With attrition claiming most of their units, Europe ends up in a stalemate with the Germans controlling Germany, Italy controlling Italy, and the UK or Spain controlling the rest of Western Europe. North Africa also stalemates the same way.

    Pretty accurate, right? The only big difference is that the USA almost never gets involved, even though I have them at war from turn 1 with the Axis powers.

    I've actually playtested this. I'm not merely speculating. This is how it plays out 80% of the time.

    ****

    on the other hand... if you play this scenario as it was originally made, the following often happens:
    1. The USA becomes allies with Germany or Italy or Japan.
    2. The USSR declares war on China or India or some other country it has no reason to declare war on.
    3. Germany is never able to fully defeat France, or if it does, it takes them 7-10 turns to finish them off. About 70% of the time Germany defeats France, but it takes them much longer to do it than it should, and they come out of the fight severely weakened. 30% of the time France actually wins, which should never happen.
    4. Italy never really does anything, as the French navy in the Mediterranean is too powerful.

    So... I dunno... whatever... if that sounds right to you then by all means, play and enjoy. Not trying to piss anyone off.
     
  4. Ghandi Khan

    Ghandi Khan Chieftain

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  5. ipso

    ipso Chieftain

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    Hello everybody
    rhettrongun, I really like your mod. I've tested a few other WWII mods and they weren't that good. For example, I like the new units, it reminds me of the road to war mod in civ 4. Right now, I've only tested the French scenario (the Jap one keeps crashing) but I like it.

    I would like to share ideas with you so that you could improve it
    • Vienna is part of the Axis since the Anschluss (1938)
    • Maybe you should weaken Spain, until 1939 it's civil war there, CHAOS, and it was a poor country until it joined the european union
    • The French had better tanks than the Germans, such as the Somua s-35 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOMUA_S35) and the B1 bis. There were no "panzers" until the invasion of the soviet union. The German tanks in 1940 had no armor but were really fast (blitzkrieg) and had a radio. They were also organized in divisions. On the contrary, the French tanks were rather slow and did not have a radio. They were weak against aircrafts, which is one of the reason why France lost. Later, the Germans were happy to use them as well as the French trucks (Renault, Somua,...). Therefore, what you could do is create a strong but very slow tank for the French. You could add a malus against aircrafts.
      Also, I think the extensive use of cavalry is a little exaggerated...
    • Concerning the French colonies, Algiers was a part of France, a "departement", like an American State, which explains why the French were sad when they lost Algery. So maybe Algiers shouldn't be a puppet state. Moreover, the French colonial system's aim was to eventually reassemble the colonies with France, whereas the British only wanted to improve their economy. Therefore, you could put more non puppet states for France, but make them poorer.
    • Concerning the ruler of the country: until the defeat, it was Paul Reynaud, but it is not very important. Next was Petain who collaborated with Germany. maybe you could manage to do like in road to war, and change the side of France. But France did resist with De Gaulle, which was only president after the war. He ruled Free France from Algiers after the Torch Operation.

    And I've got a few other ideas, which you could add to your mod:
    • You could add French planes, eventhough they weren't numerous :D
    • You could add the French elite soldiers: Chasseurs alpins
    • You could add French jets, the first one used by the army being the Dassault Ouragan (1952)
    • You gould add the British Tommies (machine gunners), who look like the machine gunners in civ4
    • I don't have any idea if it's possible or not, but you could add a script for the german atomic bomb: it needed a ressource in a factory in Norway, but the Allies destroyed the factory and so Hitler did not have the atomic bomb first. let us say then that the Germans automatically start the manhattan project in Norway and that the British try to capture the city at some point of the game

    Well, that's it! Again, thank you!
     
  6. Koenvanderven

    Koenvanderven Chieftain

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    Is it possible to disable the Settler? It's a bit historically incorrect that York is in the Sahara, and the weird polynesian towns on Antarctica ;)
     
  7. rhettrongun

    rhettrongun Chieftain

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    :scan:Vienna and a lot of the Japanese holdings are all set as independent at the start for two main reasons. I wanted liberating them to be an option for an allied player. I added diplomatic victory as a winning condition recently, so this should play out well. The other is that they build up war mongering hatred for the axis civs conquering the cities.

    I think Spain is fairly weak if you look at their starting tech level and army. Although I think I've changed some things since version 7 that you probably are not aware of on that. They should be about on par with Australia or Canada in the current build. The one thing I'll look into lowering is their gold income though.

    On the tanks, I have heard of/read about this recently actually. I thought about adjusting them, but ended up deciding not to.
    I figure the fact that the Germans employed superior tactics that made their tanks more effective than other nations should play into the tank's combat ability in game. Kinda similar to their U-boats, which were not really anything special compared to other nations submarines. The tactics they used made them more effective though, so I made U-boats a superior submarine in the scenario.
    That is really the minor reason on this issue though. Mainly it is about maintaining balance for the AI. Since this is a multi-playable civ scenario I have to account for the AI trying to invade Europe with the Germans also. It already has a hard enough time conquering historical portions of Europe as it is, and my thought is that giving the French better tanks than the Germans would throw a wrench into that.

    I'll go ahead and use your suggestion on modifying the French Empire, as you make a good point and it's an easy adjustment to make. The French Leader switching or having them break into Vichy and Free factions would be a very nice thing to add. Unfortunately if that is even possible to do in Civ 5, it is beyond me right now.

    I have given all the major WWII civs, save China, unique airplanes in the latest update. I'll keep the other suggestions in mind for future update. The last one about the atomic bomb is another that would require special scripting that I don't know how to do yet. Again, it sounds great though.

    Thanks for all the suggestions :)

    Yes, it annoyed me as well. So, I have already done this in the new update that I'm planning to upload this weekend. The settler requires particle physics or something crazy to use now.
     
  8. rhettrongun

    rhettrongun Chieftain

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    I think you are playing an old version of the scenario at this point. I even uploaded my last update with 4 different versions of the map to appeal to those like yourself who prefer to play without permanent conditions.
    Regardless, the point is I have ironed out a lot of these issues you're bringing up. I don't see the reasoning behind complaining about an old version of the scenario.
     
  9. dlmt3

    dlmt3 Chieftain

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    Would you per chance be getting rid of non world war 2 units? Right now all my AT guns are attack helis now...
     
  10. rhettrongun

    rhettrongun Chieftain

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    Yeah, those were definitely out of place. They are replaced with tank destroyers. Looks the same as anti-tank gunner units, but should be a nice improvement.
     
  11. ipso

    ipso Chieftain

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    Yes you're right for the French/German tanks issue. Besides, I haven't had any problems wiping out the German Forces (in Prince difficulty though). Perhaps it's hard to play with Germany?
    Again, regarding the colonies, it's only a detail but Algiers is more populated than Tunis. And the cities-states in the center of Africa (Bamako, etc.) all were French. And Syria, Lybia were also part of the French Empire.
    Also, it might be good to create an alliance for the allies. While I was conquering Germany, I was denounced by Churchilll, and later by US (It's only a detail though).
    The current version is 8 right ?
     
  12. rhettrongun

    rhettrongun Chieftain

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    Correct on the current version.
    I think what you're finding here is simply that the AI is bad at combat compared to a decent human player. Playing as Germany is easier than the French in version 7/8, but the gap between them in Europe should widen a bit in the next.
    I'll plan on fixing the populations with Algiers and Tunis then, as that is again something easy to correct.
    I think the city-state you're referring to starts out allied with France. From what I had thought they were not as much typical colonies akin to places like Libreville and the others. I think the individual cities are fairly poor in terms of luxury/strategic resources and the lack direct sea access too, so they would probably make for a better city-state ally than another puppet piece. I'll make sure that France at least has a higher influence with them though, as I think it was only a 90 or there abouts.

    There isn't really an "alliance" option when setting relations in worldbuilder. The best I can do is set permanent open borders, a defensive pact in place, and also permanent peace between them. I had the same trouble with Germany and USSR. There is no non-aggression pact option to set in place, and there wasn't really anything I could even substitute in that case.
     
  13. Ghandi Khan

    Ghandi Khan Chieftain

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    agreed. and they are still a poor country, even as part of the EU. I have not played as Spain myself (don't have the DLC), but in the last game I played the AI Spain managed to conquer most of Africa and Western Europe. This is incredible since the AI often manages to accomplish nothing at all, so I have a feeling they are way overpowered.

    but did they use them? Fall Rot captured Paris in less than 10 days. I haven't played the new version of the scenario yet so I don't know how powerful France is in this one, but in the older version they were way way way too powerful. Playing as them I managed to destroy Italy and Germany virtually single-handedly. I captured Rome in 4 turns.

    Again, I don't know what the new version of the scenario is like, I just don't see the point in making France stronger (at least in mainland Europe) since they barely participated in the war.
     
  14. Ghandi Khan

    Ghandi Khan Chieftain

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    Yes, I am. Sorry I am not complaining. I tried to make that clear. Just sharing my own experiences with the games that I have played on the off chance that they are helpful or entertaining.
     
  15. dlmt3

    dlmt3 Chieftain

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    Ghandi he never said he was making France stronger...Just increasing city state influence.

    But i can't wait for the new version! What difficulty level do you recommend rhettron?
     
  16. Ghandi Khan

    Ghandi Khan Chieftain

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    I was responding to someone's suggestion that France should have stronger tanks, elite infantry, an airforce, et cetera. Not the thing about the city state influence.

    Difficulty level just changes your own production times, happiness handicaps, etc. Play at the level you are comfortable playing at.
     
  17. dlmt3

    dlmt3 Chieftain

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    Ok i misread my bad.

    I know what difficulty level is for, it's just with this scenario with this many pre placed units I dont know what difficulty i should use. Ive won a Pangaea deity with 5 AIs as Russia. But im not sure how well Deity will go here...
     
  18. ipso

    ipso Chieftain

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    I wasn't suggesting that France should be stronger than Germany. I'm just trying to make the thing more historically accurate and to share ideas.
    but I agree, the French generals didn't make a good use of their tanks
    and for the chasseurs alpins, it's the same idea as with the tommies, or the kamikazes, the aim is to add more specific units to each nation, which i find myself pretty cool. it's the same for the french aircraft.
    the french did not lose as quick as the Polish for instance. they weren't outnumbered at all. They had weak aircrafts, really stupid generals, no radio in their tanks, so they were flanked by the German army, which was very good. And all of the German generals were geniuses (ex: Guderian who elaborated blitzkrieg). Almost every time they lost it was the fault of hitler's stubbornness (cf. when the Russian defeated Von Paulus, or when the Allies wiped out the remaining German forces in Africa)
     
  19. dlmt3

    dlmt3 Chieftain

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    Tactics dont really work in this game. So increasing frances strength would do nothing but make it worse for historical accuracy. If you could stack armies then that would be different, make panzer divisions verse french tanks used as infantry support.
     
  20. rhettrongun

    rhettrongun Chieftain

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    Not a bad idea. Small stacks (ie. maybe 2-3) is definitely something I will look into for a future update. Not gonna try adding something so complicated at this point though.

    As far as difficulty, I would recommend prince for any small empires. It might be worth trying out King if you plan to play as a major power though. The AI will still be dumb tactically of course, but it will be able to replace units faster.

    On that same subject, another nice addition this update makes are some changes to the AI. The targeting priorities have been modified so that it will go after units more often (as opposed to being obsessed with bombing the same city over and over...). Also it will hurry production much more often. That was something that really bothered me before, as the AI civs with great economies would often just sit on hordes of gold (sometimes >40k), all the while they are being overrun by an invading force.
     

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