• We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.

Any guides for going wide on BNW?

nemesis464

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
87
Location
St. Albans, UK
I usually only get 4 cities max, but I'm looking to start playing with a wide strategy.

Are there any guides for it, because I'm not sure how to approach this style.

Thanks.
 
I have found going wide on higher difficulties to be almost impossible. First, the AI will usually spread much faster and land lock you in (Pangaea). Then you need to be able to stay happy which almost requires you to find a new luxury resource for each new city. Last you need to be able to defend your new cities.

Im thinking Germany might be a good possible Civ since you won't have to build any military. Also I think you would have to keep your city's pop low to help combat the happiness problem. A civ that has a UB that gives extra happiness per city would also be helpful. You probably also want a religion since that scales well with more cities.

Just a few thoughts, be forewarned though that I haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet.
 
Instead of trying to self found wide in Civ V; go conquering later to attach a wide puppet empire to your tall core.
 
You generally have more room and less unhappiness from additional cities on larger maps right now now I'm playing a huge tiny islands map with Polynesia I'm on 12 founded cities around t130. Also liberty works with early game conquering so you can gave 3-4 settled cites with an additional 3-4 conquered cities.
 
Egypt is surprisingly good for this - the burial tomb gives +2 happiness, AND faith for a religion that can boost happiness. I don't play deity - immortal or emperor normally. But I've found it's doable there. I'm a horribly-dependant on Tradition player, so still learning how to do it, but if you just want practice at managing the amount of cities and expos and that without trying to battle with the AI, I found it useful to do Earth maps (often start in NA/SA where you're quite isolated) on a huge size with less AI, or you could do standard with like 3 AI. Learn where to settle, how to manage it all and that, and then go back to standard settings.

As Egypt you can do the normal beeline for philosophy (not for NC this time, for the burial tomb) and construction is useful after this, both for the CA and for the Colosseum. If you have both that and a burial tomb in a city you'll be getting + 4 happiness (offsetting the original founding + 1 pop penalty) and some faith for only 1gpt maintenance. You'll be running pretty low on gold from my experience, but they're definitely useful at least for an entrance into going wide.

P.S. Take my advice with a grain of salt - I'm no expert player, and if an expert says something opposite to me, they're probably right. But wide definitely is possible, it's just a completely different mentality, and requires pretty heavy micro at the citizen level, that type of thing.
 
I can't believe no one's done a wide-guide yet. There're plenty of wide players on higher difficulties around here, even a couple of us peaceful-wide players.

I'm working on a peaceful Piety guide right now for Deity difficulty, but may do a Liberty semi-wide tall guide at a later date.

On higher difficulties, you can aspire to play wide peacefully, but it won't always work, depending on the map and who your neighbors are. If you're the kind of player who doesn't feel comfortable adjusting your strategy 30-50 turns into the game, then it's probably best to start with a Liberty CB rush of your neighbor. That guarantees you enough room to go wide even on standard Deity, regardless of civ. I think there's a CB rush guide floating around, so just use that one for the start. Remember, it's 100% okay to build a settler as Liberty before you get your free one, but don't do it just to have another city, only do it if settling early will block off the AI expansion and give you at least +1 additional city spots in the future.

The key is managing happiness and growth, as in, making sure certain cities do NOT grow in the early/mid game and making sure certain cities DO grow. As a general rule, after the first 50 turns, I plot out exactly where I want my 6-10 cities to be, exactly how much happiness I reasonably have access to, and their exact max populations before Ideologies. I then make sure to switch my cities away from growth and into heavy production/gold once they hit their limit. To distribute your population, divide your cities up into what their purpose is. In a peaceful game, I always make sure I have 3 high population cities: Science (with mountain and NC), Culture (with all guides and Hermitage), and Trading (coastal, with some farmland, some tile gold, good resource diversity, and East India Company). For a military game, I would scrap population growth on either the Culture or the Gold one, and put it toward a Production city instead (with Ironworks, and forest/hills). The remaining cities, I would designate as science cities (anything with mountains) or gold cities (everything else) and divide their populations based on my victory condition (SV and CV focus on science; Diplo/Domination focus on gold).

Settle your new cities one by one to avoid transition happiness issues (so, build a road to the city while settler is in production, settle the city, then immediately use workers to connect luxury; repeat). You should start with your empire limits and chokepoints to prevent AI expansion into your zone of control, and then fill out the areas with unique luxuries within your zone of control (have 1 mercantile city state by this point), and finally fill out city spots that are useful but do not have unique luxuries (have two mercantile city states by this point, and another city state ally if there is one with a unique resource you don't have; this step also requires zoos unless you are going down Patronage left side).

If you are playing on Deity or Immortal, this should set you significantly behind, and you should not expect to be at tech Parity until the Modern Era (although, with Great Engineers, you can still snipe wonders starting in the Renaissance Era with beelines; and Louvre/Big Ben/Porcelain Tower are generally available pretty late). This means you should rely more on international trade routes and less on internal routes in the early/mid game (at no point should more than half of your routes be internal routes; Liberty starts are gold-needy and science-needy).

Generally, Commerce/Exploration work well as intermittent trees to get between Liberty and Rationalism (or as replacements for Rationalism for Domination). Patronage for Diplo. CV can go many ways.
 
Yo adwcta, I could really use your expertise with peaceful-wide in my thread about larger maps and their effects on relative civ power (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521112). Tommynt and some others (including myself) have expressed concerns with wide play even on larger maps, which certainly affects whether civs like Rome that theoretically would be bolstered by going wide actually benefit from them. If your playstyle is close to optimal on standard, I'd have to think larger maps tip the scale in its favor. I am skeptical about some things (liberty being all that much more impressive for wide vs tall empires, and the opportunity cost of churning out settlers) , but really I am on your rooting for you because I come from a REX/settler factory in civ3, ICS in civ 4 background and quiet frankly hate playing tall- it just feels optimal in my experience with civ5 bnw thus far. This is alleviated somewhat by being able to supplement a tall core with some conquering, but still...
 
Got a super lucky start as Portugal last night. Coastal, river, on a hill, single tile mountain next to me. A total of 4 deer camps and 3 truffle camps in my capital's reach. After some scouting i deduced that I am alone on my continent. Went Trad opener>Honor opener (farmed 2 camps for culture until late Renaissance) and full Liberty.

Got Goddess of the Hunt. Still, I couldn't really make use of Liberty. I couldn't stay happy enough to go past 4 cities. Heck, even my 3rd one was a gamble when I built it. I used my GE from Liberty to get Hagia Sophia because I can't let some stupid AI religion to screw me out of my +1 food from camps.

I was a bit unlucky with resource variety but I was only able to plop down my 4th city after trading excess truffles with Catherine.
 
Got a super lucky start as Portugal last night. Coastal, river, on a hill, single tile mountain next to me. A total of 4 deer camps and 3 truffle camps in my capital's reach. After some scouting i deduced that I am alone on my continent. Went Trad opener>Honor opener (farmed 2 camps for culture until late Renaissance) and full Liberty.

Got Goddess of the Hunt. Still, I couldn't really make use of Liberty. I couldn't stay happy enough to go past 4 cities. Heck, even my 3rd one was a gamble when I built it. I used my GE from Liberty to get Hagia Sophia because I can't let some stupid AI religion to screw me out of my +1 food from camps.

I was a bit unlucky with resource variety but I was only able to plop down my 4th city after trading excess truffles with Catherine.

You would have been better off just going full Tradition. No one else on your continent means you don't need Collective Rule to get the good city spots. Also border growth is nice and all but I don't think taking the Tradition opener is worth it if you aren't going to stick with the tree (and most of the best stuff in that tree is better taken early than late). The Honor opener I'm less sure about - it can be very useful to know where barb camps are (especially if there is lots of forest or jungle that you will be sending caravans/workers though) and farming them can help recoup the cost of the policy, though it will still delay your acquisition of new policies.

Take Liberty if you have some competition for the best city spots, especially if the AI is going to beat you to a spot. If you're determined to mix Tradition and Liberty I would go Tradition opener > Liberty until Collective Rule > Finish Tradition.
 
I never get more than 5-6 cities even in my "wide" games. Those scaling penalites (+15% science cost and culture cost) scare the hell out of me. Especially early. I don't know how to get around these penalties.

I'm sure that rush-buying a library, university, research lab, granary, and aquaduct... coupled with running internal food routes to a city will get cities 7, 8, 9 up and running to recoup that +15% science cost, but without the cash and techs to do this, how can it ever be worth it in a peaceful game?
 
The science penalty, on Standard maps, is 5% per city, not 15% (and culture cost increase is 10% per city, less 33% of that if you have Representation).

Or are you saying you choose to settle 3 fewer cities to avoid an additional 15% science penalty?
 
My advice: go wide if you play on Settler because otherwise the penalties for creating Coruscant will only hinder game progress! It is so sad watching the AI get their boosts sometimes! What I'm really saying is I feel it's next to impossible to win with a wide strategy when playing higher difficulties!
 
The main strategy for wide is "work five times harder to more or less break even if you are lucky, else totally tank." BNW turned wide strategies into gambits--grab this religion here, this wonder there, miss a step and you go belly up fast. It really feels overtuned to me, to be honest. It's way too much risk for very little reward. Plus it just feels weird that in a civ game you spend so much time not founding cities because they hurt you more than they help...
 
The main strategy for wide is "work five times harder to more or less break even if you are lucky, else totally tank." BNW turned wide strategies into gambits--grab this religion here, this wonder there, miss a step and you go belly up fast. It really feels overtuned to me, to be honest. It's way too much risk for very little reward. Plus it just feels weird that in a civ game you spend so much time not founding cities because they hurt you more than they help...

So basically 3-4 city trad start into 6 capitals with everything razed = BNW wide? =)


(E: I'm in the belief of trad working better with <5 cities)
 
I m trying atm a peaceful maya deity game with a bit of liberty piety mix and proly patronage later, intending to settle like 10 cities sub turn 70 (this is really all room i have got)

might make a little guide out of it

edit: I really dont think that some 5% science penalty will hurt me significantly, neither the increased culture costs.
It more might be the lack of op Tradition policies like monarchy
 
I m trying atm a peaceful maya deity game with a bit of liberty piety mix and proly patronage later, intending to settle like 10 cities sub turn 70 (this is really all room i have got)

might make a little guide out of it

edit: I really dont think that some 5% science penalty will hurt me significantly, neither the increased culture costs.
It more might be the lack of op Tradition policies like monarchy

Please do that! =)

That 5% won't hurt, because you'r maya or, because you get them so early so you'r science is so low that 5% won't hurt?
 
So far I've won only one immortal game with wide approach. I had an awful tundra start with Poland. Little food around and even though it was a coastal start (SW part of my continent), ice was cutting me off. I went for liberty and quickly settled out 3 spots around English capital that was placed in the center of my continent, in a desert area with Uluru. Immediately after that, I DoW'd someone to the east and CB-tormented him for quite some time before I was able to take his capital located on hills, surrounded with rivers and jungle. It was a few months ago and I don't remember which civ it was.

At this time, England was spreading protestantism in my cities. It came with pagodas and a throng of prophets and missionaries I acquired in a war that ensued shortly after my initial conquest. Before I was done with England, Greece, located to the north, managed to convert my cities to orthodox faith. It came with mosques. At that point, my civ already had well developed piety and some honor policies.

Then Greece attacked and almost managed to conquer two of my early-built, beautiful and large cities. Somehow I managed to survive and when my capital whelped a few x-bowmen, it was only a matter of time. I entered Renaissance with my continent cleared out, 3 very large cities and many smaller ones positioned all around the map and most importantly, all my cities had a pagoda, a mosque and a cathedral from my own religion that dominated the land when 2 most dangerous religions were already conquered.

In my opinion, the key to high difficulty wide game is religion. Boosts to happiness and culture from religious buildings are very important for tall civilizations and when you multiply the gain by the number of a wide civ's cities, it's simply fantastic. Furthermore, you have to pay much less for claiming territory with all the additional culture. Warmongering also helps, because you can go for +1 happiness and +2 culture per unit stationed in your cities. It gives you a total of 6 free happiness per city (4 from religious buildings, 1 from the unit and 1 from city connection). If you were able to add +2 from temples (I wasn't), you'd get free 8 pop cities. Add 2 from monuments and 2 from workshop/factory combo from order and you have 12 pop per city for free.

Let's not forget that Jesuit education allows you to spam science buildings for no gold.

tl;dr
If you want to play a wide game, make sure that you make good use of religion and special buildings it provides. Also, be aggressive because AI will not be waiting for you to claim their land and develop your own religion. Remember that you can use enemy prophets and missionaries.
 
Wide is possible in BNW but it seems very much like tying 1 hand behind your back particularly in regard to early science which when your playing on higher difficulties is even more prominent because your already clawing your way back to even an equal point.

The other main killer is diplomacy. Going wide will generally annoy your neighbour with the "we think your expanding too quickly" modifier which is based on the proportion of cites you have compared to them and as going over 4 cities is so crippling in the early game even less AI's seem to build more than a couple of cities. This was shown most evidently to me when i tried a huge map with 22 civs. I was aiming for a large war game starting around the time i got dynamite. I get to the point of going to war and start making my plan only to realise that there are huge tracts of land between each civ so to make a continuous empire i would have to be continually founding cities to connect them up, even as many as 3 cities in some cases to fill a gap. Everyone was best friends because no one was near anybody else.
Usually by this time it would be normal to have at least one AI with 20+ cities and usually 2 or 3 runaways...don't remember even seeing the term runaway used in BNW.
And the new warmonger penalties make even defending yourself properly a real negative, again particularly in the early game.

Early gold has always been a problem with wide as you need a bigger army and you tend to have more buildings that cost maintenance but that used to be balanced out by the fact that by building more cities you had more goods to sell but that has been hit by a double whammy of you can only trade lump sum with a DOF, which you won't likely get as you will be "expanding too quickly" and the AI now seem to have a [much smaller] limit on the resources they will buy so even with 2-3 cities i find myself unable to sell all my excess horses and/or iron a lot of the time.

Previously there was a slight imbalance, possibly slightly in favour of wide from the players perspective, most certainly in the AI perspective but both tall and wide were perfectly valid and both were reasonably balance in regard to advantages and disadvantages. Tall was a must/better for some strategies and wide was better for others so there were some restrictions in their use but overall they were a bit 50/50 in their usefulness and ability to play them.
In BNW tall is king of the early game in particular and it seems like often happens, they have taken certain complaints.i.e. the game is boring after 3/4 way though and swung that wildly in the other direction rather than balancing it.
The game is now boring in the first 1/2 - 3/5 with in effect a single strategy required to win...have up to 4 cities, go tradition, build science, grow upward like rabbits, see what situation your in a choose your win strategy for the end game.

I reply to this change i have really cut back on my civ gameplay because instead of playing 3/4 of the game and not finishing because i know the outcome or there is nothing to do but click end turn instead i get bored in the first half as i seem to have to do exactly the same thing over and over again as there only seems 1 way to play the first half without feeling like your gimping yourself.

The first half of the game is just click next turn with no fear of war, no real challenge and no real decisions.
 
I m trying atm a peaceful maya deity game with a bit of liberty piety mix and proly patronage later, intending to settle like 10 cities sub turn 70 (this is really all room i have got)

might make a little guide out of it

edit: I really dont think that some 5% science penalty will hurt me significantly, neither the increased culture costs.
It more might be the lack of op Tradition policies like monarchy

Good luck, I settle those sub 150 turns, and its still fine, so sub 70 should work fine, except that you'll be totally killing your diplo. So, not sure how peaceful it'll be. Maya is a top civ for going wide (2 early academies, 2 science per city), even I can get sub 250 win times with them going wide, so I'm expecting at least sub-230 from you!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Winning times are so much about land that I dont really care for general comparisions.

GOTM is a good environment to try fast times, apart that its just pointless.

Good ruins, some mountains for overvatories, rivers ... having or not having this stuff and much other stuff is more important as skill for finsih time.
 
Back
Top Bottom