Apostolic Palace bug

[omnipotentone]

After finally winning a giant world war, I researched mass media. Yet several turns later lost to Montezuma by diplomatic victory from the Apostolic palace. It is supposed to be obsolete but isn't??

 

[dcbandicoot]

I thought the UN was necessary to obsolete the AP.

 

[Zoolooman]

I thought the UN was necessary to obsolete the AP.

There are three problems here.

1. Wonders obsolete whenever the owner researches the necessary technology. If they owner never researches it, then the wonder never obsoletes.

2. The AP continues to function even after the UN is built by another Civilization.

3. Currently, votes in the Apostolic Palace only count the population of cities with the state religion. Normally, this is fine, but with the diplomatic victory option, it becomes really ********. In the last game I played, Boudica made the AP and spread her religion to one large city in my empire. Then she began voting for a diplomatic victory. Abstaining only denied her 71 votes, even though I had the largest empire on the planet. She nearly won. When voting for a diplomatic victory, the entire population of the world should count, but it currently doesn't.

 

[omnipotentone]

It is totally stupid the way it works now. The weakest remaining country wins a diplomatic victory? Even if you spy and force them into free religion too!!!

 

[jkp1187]

Ideally, construction of the UN itself should obsolete the AP, not the owner's possession of the Mass Media technology. Although, that said, sounds like the diplomatic victory function worked perfectly in the OP's game. Sort of a just rewards thing, no?

 

[Zoolooman]

But it doesn't work perfectly. Only cities with the religion can vote no or abstain, so if your super-large empire only has a handful of cities with the state religion, your empire gets very few votes against the diplomatic victory.

In an ironic twist, I had to spread my enemy's religion to my cities in order to gain more votes and deny her the victory.

 

[IronCrown]

Wouldn't it be a good tactic then to gift Mass Media to the palace's owner?

 

[lankypeter]

Actually, I see one of these needing a fix and the other making total sense.

1. Wonders obsolete whenever the owner researches the necessary technology. If they owner never researches it, then the wonder never obsoletes.

2. The AP continues to function even after the UN is built by another Civilization.

I don't see there being any issue that the owner of the AP can still use the AP even if another Civ has the UN. That would just represent smaller (or 3rd-world) countries still having their AP with larger or more tech'ed countries having the UN. However, once someone has the UN, I could see (and would like to see) the AP no longer enabling the owner to vote for Diplo Victory. Also, each member still using the AP would disappear once they have researched Mass Media (UN tech). That makes sense to me - older tech'ed civs still have their method of meeting together, while the newer ones have moved onto the UN.

In an ironic twist, I had to spread my enemy's religion to my cities in order to gain more votes and deny her the victory.

Also, this makes sense to me as well and I don't think it needs to be fixed. You are using religion as a weapon: if the player doesn't spend time to spread the CPU's religion, the player may lose by Diplo Vic. However, player has to waste hammers to do this, possibly making the player civ weaker in the short term. That makes total sense to me.

 

[molst]

I don't see there being any issue that the owner of the AP can still use the AP even if another Civ has the UN. That would just represent smaller (or 3rd-world) countries still having their AP with larger or more tech'ed countries having the UN. However, once someone has the UN, I could see (and would like to see) the AP no longer enabling the owner to vote for Diplo Victory. Also, each member still using the AP would disappear once they have researched Mass Media (UN tech). That makes sense to me - older tech'ed civs still have their method of meeting together, while the newer ones have moved onto the UN.

Agreed! Sounds cool to me with AP and UN in parallel although only one can handle diplomatic victories. The AP handles older and sometimes obsolete resolutions, but still has the advantage of a more narrow and easily influenced set of civs IF you have the right religion. Diplomatic options in the game should rather be extended than reduced in my opinion.

 

[alerum68]

I got a bug for y'all. Make Peace with Caesar was the vote. I vote yes, and as you can see from the screen shot I've attached, so do enough to end the war, but it failed. So I wanted to see if I can get the proper result, and reloaded my save game, and voted Abstain. The strange thing is that the votes of some people changed.... I'm running the first version of BTS, (waiting til all the bugs are kinked out of the others), so this may have been fixed. Any ideas?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The problem there is with DiploVictory in general

Two Simple changes to make to the Diplo victory
1. Instead of only coming up when
a) everyone is a member and
b) you have less than the # of votes needed

It SHOULD come up when
a)everyone is a member and
b) Everyone has been a member at Peace with everyone for 10 turns

2. You should get some prize for voting for the winner
You Win when voting for the Winner
OR
You win if you are at least Pleased with the Winner (and vote for them)*
*The human player should use those relation modifiers as well
OR
You win if you have 'Good Relations' with the winner (long term Open Borders/Defense pact) and vote for them


# 1 change means that
You can stop a Diplo win easily... just be at war with someone... of course that means you have to Defy! any peacemaking resolutions.. but that gives you a method of defying a Diplo win.

It also means the Diplo Win is Diplomatic... you get it by keeping the peace, encouraging treaties, and using the peacemaking power of the AP/UN

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The problem there is with DiploVictory in general, rather than with the AP obsoleting.

The "Diplo Victory Vote" needs to be a "World Government" Vote

Voting Options:
Current Leader
Candidate 2
Abstain
Never!

If one candidate wins, there is a massive change in the UN/AP (whichever it passes in)

1. If you Defied the Vote you are Permanently outside of the UN/AP
2. UN/AP Resolutions are no longer voted on, when the Leader chooses a Resolution, They and they alone chose whther it passes or is revoked

3. If you did not Defy the "World Government" Resolution, you cannot ever Defy any Resolutions again.


If all the Defiers of the "World Government" are eliminated or vassalized, then
Everyone who voted for the Leader gets a Diplomatic Victory.

Defying the DiploVictory should be fairly common for the AP, because the forces arrayed against you would be 2/3+ of the religion.. not 2/3+ of the world.

Also there would be a Reason to vote for someone else in the UN, you would effectively voting yourself a win (if That civ won... if you vote for the loser, you lose)

This is probably the most poignant and well thought out idea for changing the Diplo victory. The only problem would be the +5 for "being considered a villain". Take that away (only for the diplo win elections) and I'm game.

 

[JSwartz0181]

I got a bug for y'all. Make Peace with Caesar was the vote. I vote yes, and as you can see from the screen shot I've attached, so do enough to end the war, but it failed. So I wanted to see if I can get the proper result, and reloaded my save game, and voted Abstain. The strange thing is that the votes of some people changed.... I'm running the first version of BTS, (waiting til all the bugs are kinked out of the others), so this may have been fixed. Any ideas?

Actually, there isn't a bug. Korea opted to defy the resolution, thus even if everyone else votes in favor of it, it'll fail.