Are cottages backwards?

[Pelaka]

One of the most recurring topics I see here is about the uber power of cottage spam, and the relative worthlessness of lumbermills, windmills and workshops. The only real thing done so far in the module to "slow" cottage spam is to make chopping take a bit more work to get. Could this all be fixed by just by reversing their order in the tech tree?

Specific suggestions would be:

1. Rename Education to Apprentiship. Instead of giving cottages it gives workshops.

2. Give cottages with Guilds.

3. Rename Tracking to Forestry. Have it give logging camps (reanmed lumbermills).

4. Give windmills and watermills at Construction.

5. Have Alchemy improve workshops.

6. Have Hidden Paths improve logging camps (and let elves make logging camps in forests/AFs).

7. Have engineering improve windmills and watermills.

8. Have arcane lore improve villages/towns.

Doing this would mean that lumber camps and workshops would both be valid early game improvements. Windmills and watermills would be early/mid game improvements. Finally, cottages would be late game improvements, and would come at a price... they would be initially weaker then the lumber camps, mills and workshops they were replacing. Likewise, at the same time you can get cottages you also get improvements to these more basic resources.

This would lead to much more diverse land development strategies. It would also mean that a civ that wanted to rush its financial development would be making sacrifices in their military/magic/religious development. More choices and tradeoffs are good things.

Pel.

 

[QES]

Holy crap this is genious!
Simple and elegant. Plus one might see a use for early farms!
I say Yea!
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

its interesting, all your ideas sound alright, though putting cottages in guilds seems a bit too far, and i dont see a reason why itd be attached to guilds.

something a bit sooner that makes more sense, not sure... maybe trade or currency, or something

 

[QES]

its interesting, all your ideas sound alright, though putting cottages in guilds seems a bit too far, and i dont see a reason why itd be attached to guilds.

something a bit sooner that makes more sense, not sure... maybe trade or currency, or something

Guilds (at least in RL) were the beginnings of powerful non-centralized government and money. In this, they were a direct reason for the growth of villages and hamlets, eventually prospering into the renessaince towns that created the new age.

It's not hard to invision something of similar nature in FfH. Plus, it would extend the life of the game, and alter changes. A big complaint right now is no "end game" pizazz. If cottages (and therefore towns) were late game, power growth would be continuous from guilds on - something that i see as simply adding a good amount of flavor AND strategy.

In the early stages of the game (which most people enjoy already) things would be more rough an tumble. I like the idea. As "information and people" as power sources really are a later concept (outside of slavery).
I very very dig.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

taxation could work for cottages too, but guilds is just a bit too far, and it doesnt really make too much sense. taxation, trade, and currency all seem like valid reasons that small towns could generate income (if you tax them, taxation makes sense, or if they act like trade outposts,trade and currency make sense for those two)

 

[QES]

taxation could work for cottages too, but guilds is just a bit too far, and it doesnt really make too much sense. taxation, trade, and currency all seem like valid reasons that small towns could generate income (if you tax them, taxation makes sense, or if they act like trade outposts,trade and currency make sense for those two)

Yeah, i guess. I just like it because it would give guilds a solid reason for me to try to get it. Right now...i dont really like the civic, so i dont oft go for it. Now, i do eventually research it, but its never really a priority.

I'd just like cottages to be the "Last" of the possible improvements. So, whatever that garners, is cool. Since they are oft considered the "best" improvement - Outside of hills and resources, they should be also the "last" improvement.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

guilds were not the reason towns generate income, i dont know where you're getting that lol, in the real current world guilds dont make towns generate income towards the state, taxes do, trade and commerce does, guilds has nothing to do with it

and note that in vanilla civ guilds is a high level tech and you get cottages way before.. you probably need towns before anyone would even think of guilds

 

[QES]

guilds were not the reason towns generate income, i dont know where you're getting that lol, in the real current world guilds dont make towns generate income towards the state, taxes do, trade and commerce does, guilds has nothing to do with it

and note that in vanilla civ guilds is a high level tech and you get cottages way before.. you probably need towns before anyone would even think of guilds

In vanilla civ, the game is balanced differently, and represents slightly different things.

Considering the gereally rapid growth of towns (since they're always prefered to other improvements, they're ALWAYS worked, and therefore always growing) guilds in this case, represent (or could) the strengthing of domestic economics.

Taxes generate state revenue, yes, but guilds were responcible (at their time) for increasing the power distribution OUT into the towns and away from power centres. Effectively guilds were the decentralization of economics and power (in a fashion). Now, they werent responcible for this on their own, but they were in essence, very influential in this dynamic.

No, they didnt "make" towns or invent decentralization, but they were most definately a catalyst. Making guilds be the access point for Cottages, merely is an acknowledgement of this. Taxation ALSO makes sense, for its various reasons. BOth are legitimate.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

balance shmalance, cottages are available in the time equivalent of farms compared to vanilla, and they're not that great. personally i dont build them in ffh because unlike vanilla, theres much more threat of enemies coming and pillaging in ffh

 

[vorshlumpf]

guilds were not the reason towns generate income, i dont know where you're getting that lol, in the real current world guilds dont make towns generate income towards the state, taxes do, trade and commerce does, guilds has nothing to do with it

and note that in vanilla civ guilds is a high level tech and you get cottages way before.. you probably need towns before anyone would even think of guilds

You can justify just about anything in a fantasy game such as this. Why does Education allow cottages? Why does Arcane Lore give Villages/Towns more production?

Anyway, I've always thought cottages came too early in this game. Either delaying their appearance (as suggested above) or, if possible, making Hamlets, Villages, and Towns dependant upon certain techs would be an improvement in my books.

- Niilo

 

[Sureshot]

guilds is too far is my balance point, currency and trade are moderate and would work, taxation makes the most sense tho, and could use some filling out

 

[QES]

You can justify just about anything in a fantasy game such as this. Why does Education allow cottages? Why does Arcane Lore give Villages/Towns more production?

Anyway, I've always thought cottages came too early in this game. Either delaying their appearance (as suggested above) or, if possible, making Hamlets, Villages, and Towns dependant upon certain techs would be an improvement in my books.

- Niilo

Perhaps this "Middle path" is the best idea.

Cottages cannot upgrade until Tech X.
Villages to hamlet Tech Y
Hamlets to Towns Tech Z
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

im not convinced cottages are overpowered, they are a time investment, and one which is easily crashed.

i do feel they that they are ideal for financial civs next to rivers, and that perhaps there is a better tech for them (taxation makes the most sense for realism and for giving that tech more substance).

i do like the other ideas, and personally i think Crafting tech could use workshops, and the -mills improvements come too late to really be useful

 

[Pelaka]

I suggested guilds just to move cottages into the end-game tech area and to require a painful tech prioritization. Having them come a bit earlier would be fine with me... my main thrust was trying to set it up so that there was a reason to use mills/lumber/workshops.

Pel.

 

[hadrian11]

The chief concern I would have with moving cottages further back into the tech tree is that some civs are really dependent on them. Those with the barbarian trait are really hard pressed enough to get science going. If you stick cottages so far back, then how will these civs ever get to research them if they end up in a poor commerce start?

However, I do like the idea of limiting the growth of cottages => hamlets => villages => towns with some sort of tech restriction. I think this may help to even out civs that can research education right away versus civs that can not. As it is right now, getting early cottages is maybe a bit too powerful.

 

[BCalchet]

Hmm... If cottages were moved back, there really should be some alternative early-game commerce improvement. As is, starting with several gold-heavy wine/gem/gold/silk/incense/reagents resources and developing them can let you equal - and even surpass, early on - a cottage economy. If cottages were taken out, people with gold-resource-poor starting spots would just find themselves even further behind.

(On the other hand, moving cottages up the tree would give specialist-powered reasearch an indirect boost. That's a good thing.)

 

[xumio]

AFAIK the AI pre-plans it's improvements, so allowing cottages later in the game might cripple them, by leading to much unimproved/"useless" land

 

[loki1232]

I like this idea.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

This would make Civs that started near luxury resources immensely powerful. Go ahead and mod FfH for yourself to see how it changes the game. I'm convinced that, though it might sound cool, it would ruin the progression of techs. Where would you get your beakers? Elder councils, and what else? River tiles? Do you really want to spend 90 turns researching something on quick speed?

Combine this with the fact that the AI couldn't handle it, and this idea really doesn't make any sense. If you want slower tech progression, just petition to increase tech costs across the board.

 

[puck11b]

Well, lets look at the problem rather than the solution. From what I can see what the OP is saying that cottages are too good, there is seldom a reason to build anything else on a square that can have a cottage on it. We are all focusing on the solution, perhaps we should address wether we think the problem is real, and then come up with a solution.
In short, do you think that cottages are just plain better than the other options for any given piece of terrain.

For plains, grassland, or floodplains I very rarely build anything other than cottages. So are they overpowered or do workshops and mills just stink?