Attacks vs. City Walls

[Kessey]

I want to try an early conquest game, but my biggest problem is usually getting past an enemy city's walls. If it's a capital, obviously I can't bribe it. And if it's land-locked, my ships are useless. If they put a unit with a defense of 2 or better to guard the city, even a vetran catapult would only have about a 50% (9/17) chance of winning. And it seems that using a diplomat to sabotage the walls is a little expensive since they can only be used once, to spy, gather intelligence, or damage the walls. Also if they target the walls, they have only a limited chance to succeed.

What strategies to others here use to bypass or attack cities with walls (if the early units available are catapults, legions, etc.)? Any help would be appreciated.



Thanks and take care,

Jay

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Rush to Monotheism, and use Crusaders - preferably veteran crusaders. Then build enough of them to withstand a few losses. Send 6-10 at the city all at once. Catapults are a huge liability because they only move one space per turn, meaning they must sit adjacent to the city with an "attack me" sign on them. One-move units are very problematic as attackers until RR, at which time the Engineer/RR/Artillery combo is nice, but by then Howies are just around the corner. (And this is hardly "early" conquest - You should generally be done well before RR comes around.)

Also, you should be aiming to get your forces out on the road well before most civs start building walls. Start sending Pachyderms out before you get to monotheism to ensure you can start making inroads before walls become a factor. Sometimes, particularly on large maps or if you have particularly difficult starting territory, this can't be helped, but if you are regularly facing walls, you're starting way too late.

 

[Peaster]

I agree with Tim. When I play for EC, I encounter city walls roughly once per game on average. If the city is no more than size 6, on grass/plains, maybe even river, I usually play as Tim suggests, and gather lots of vet crusaders before attacking. I try to station them 2 squares away, in one of the main coordinate directions [E,W,N or S] so they are not visible to the AI. Or on a road/river if available.

If the situation looks bad (eg walled city on hills, or lots of defenders expected), I often prefer to send dips against the walls. I've found that 3 dips in the same turn is usually enough (before about 500AD, anyway). It doesn't hurt to bring 4-5 dips, for insurance, since any unused dips will be useful later in bribing nearby cities.

As you said, this is expensive, because the sabotaging dips are lost, and you won't have many city improvements to sell when you win. But it is a LOT cheaper than losing 5-10 vet crusaders.

Historical Atze recently showed us how to count the defenders in a stack/city, which has greatly simplified planning this kind of attack. Though his trick doesn't always work on cities, for reasons unknown to me.

 

[Peaster]

PostScript: If the enemy city is far from home, you may not have much choice in how to attack; you may have to use whatever units are nearby, or wait a long time for backup. That's one reason I like to have a colony near each AI civ, if possible. Then I can rush buy crusaders OR dips, as needed.

BTW - Against walls, choose one plan or the other. Mixing plans would be a waste!

 

[PaulT]

I've never had a problem beating city walls with veteran crusaders in mass numbers, except with far-away civs when I underestimate the number of crusaders, or when a civ has the great wall and doesn't share maps, etc...If you can get the lighthouse up early you can try sending out settlers to form colonies as Peaster suggested (read his guide for more info, it's great!).

 

[The Judge]

You could try incorporating settlers (or engineers) into your attack strategy. Get 4x settlers and send one next to the city and get him to build a road. For some bizarre reason 90% of the time the AI leaves him alone and he can build his road. Then get him to start a fortress and send in the 3x other settlers (along the road) to help finish the job. Follow them with an army of catapults (or cannons) & those city walls will not be up for long! Obviously having a load of offensive units in a fortress beside a city will give the AI a free shot at them but if they're veteran you'd be unlucky to lose more than one unit. After the advent of railroad the same can be done but railwaying your way to the enemys walls. I have had games in the past where I have used this tactic extensively (at least until the advent of strong mobile units) and if done correctly it works well.

 

[Kessey]

Thanks everyone.

I tried a little of everyone's ideas, though instead of monotheism, I got mathematics and used a catapult/knight combo. We wiped out everyone but the English and Vikings. However, then I ran out of gold and the barbarians struck (Raging Hordes), so I spent a few hundred years trading and getting to fundamentalism. Then I wiped out both civs in a few minutes.

I probably shouldn't have had the barbs so high or I could have won around 200 AD.

Thanks again and take care,

Jay

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Thanks everyone.

I tried a little of everyone's ideas, though instead of monotheism, I got mathematics and used a catapult/knight combo. We wiped out everyone but the English and Vikings. However, then I ran out of gold and the barbarians struck (Raging Hordes), so I spent a few hundred years trading and getting to fundamentalism. Then I wiped out both civs in a few minutes.

I probably shouldn't have had the barbs so high or I could have won around 200 AD.

Thanks again and take care,

Jay

The point is that Crusaders have the offensive power of a catapult, but with better speed/range. You can attack from 2 squares away (Thus avoiding the need to defend a stack adjacent to the city). Another advantage is that you will likely want monotheism for Michaelangelo at some point. Math is not needed in early conquest unless you're playing a very large map and will have a need for Magellan at some point (e.g., GOTM 70) and even then you will likely want Mike's first.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

The point is that Crusaders have the offensive power of a catapult, but with better speed/range.

No, they do not. Crusader's attack is 5, catapult's is 6. When a vet, the difference widens to 7 versus 9. The extra move of the crusader, however, more than compensates for that. And I agree with everything else you said.

 

[Ace]

Yes, they do if you consider that catapults rarely get to attack at full strenght. When you move one up to an AI city, the AI will always try to eliminate the cat. And if you attack from one hex away via roads, your down to 2/3s strength. Yeah, you can bring up a phanax, pikeman, or knight first, but that still runs the risk that the AI has ellies to counterattack before you can get fortified and that takes lots of time and even then, the ellie has a very good chance to suceed.

Crusaders, expecially veterans, give you much more flexibility than cats do. Using one movers for attacking units is like siege warfare, you spend a lot of time bringing units into position for the attack, when you could just blitz the target and move on.

 

[Kessey]

I'll use those ideas and go with the crusaders next game. I usually skip the religions, but that'll be something new...and espeically welcome if they're so successful.

Take care,

Jay

 

[Peaster]

I think it's safe to say that experienced EC players prefer to attack with crusaders (and/or ellies, knights, diplomats) rather than catapults or lesser units.

Apology: This may be slightly off-topic, since it probably wouldn't be advisable against walled cities, or against an AI. But just for the record, one plausible strategy I've seen in multiplayer is to attack very early with a catapult from a trireme [maybe along with a phalanx]. It works best if the terrain is mostly rough. IIRC the theory is:

* a human opponent is likely to build a coastal city on a hill, and defend it with a fortified phalanx (tough job for a ellie).
* he is not likely to defend it with good attacking units.
* he will be surprised when the cat lands, without time to rushbuy.
* he will not yet have enough roads, units, etc, for a defense

 

[geofelt]

First of all, use Vet units. They are 50% stronger. Next, plan to use enough units to take the city the first time. If in doubt, spend a dip to examine the city and see what you are up against. For a difficult target, build a fort next to the city, and stock it with enough units. A vet catapult there is very powerful if you start next to the city. To do this, I pre-work two settlers on different squares, building a mine which should take 10 turns. (actually one settler mining for 4 turns should do it) After a couple of turns, I move them next to the city along with my best defender. If he is not attacked, or survives the attack, then the settlers will complete the fort in one turn. It is now safe to move in enough units to do the job, along with a few more defenders.

 

[PaulT]

First of all, use Vet units. They are 50% stronger. Next, plan to use enough units to take the city the first time. If in doubt, spend a dip to examine the city and see what you are up against. For a difficult target, build a fort next to the city, and stock it with enough units. A vet catapult there is very powerful if you start next to the city. To do this, I pre-work two settlers on different squares, building a mine which should take 10 turns. (actually one settler mining for 4 turns should do it) After a couple of turns, I move them next to the city along with my best defender. If he is not attacked, or survives the attack, then the settlers will complete the fort in one turn. It is now safe to move in enough units to do the job, along with a few more defenders.

That seems like alot of effort. If you put the settlers toward ICS and just swarmed the target city with vet crusaders I think you'd finish quicker, but then I've never built forts in EC myself, so I can't compare. If there's a particularly tough city I just use a few leftover horseman to block off any possible attacks (move them next to city) and then just surround the layer of horseman with crusaders. Since you know your stacks can't be touched you can put 10+ units there.

Though if the AI were smarter they might take out your horseman and then go for the crusaders, even if they have a clear path to the crusaders they will always (in my experience) attack the horseman next to their city.

 

[Nick Garai]

Sabotage them! Works great!