Autosave - cheat or utility?

[vanatteveldt]

Dear Forum members,

I've been lurking for way too long now so I thought it'd be fun to start a controversial thread. The easy thing to say is that loading the autosave except for after a system crash or similar occasion always constitutes cheating. My thesis is:

Under certain (strict) circumstances, using the autosave can be a legitimate 'undo' button

In no event, of course, should the autosave be used to alter the outcome of a battle, change a decision about a battle or negotiation because of seeing the results, etc. etc.

I can think of some good reasons to use the autosave

1) In the initial phase of the game, I forgot to set the luxury rate and a city is in civil disorder. Nothing happened between end-of-turn and new turn (ie no enemy civs are detected yet and no barbarians are moving)

2) (just happened to me in COTM2) You attack with your special unit in a battle that 'cannot be lost', and trigger a Golden Age.... Normally you would realize that beforehand but one does not think of ships as causing GA's . [This is (imho but debatable) not changing a decision about a battle since the outcome (sinking a redlined galley with a dromon) is >>90% anyway]

3) mismoves, touchpad unintended clicks, other accidents

The common factor behind all scenarios is that a good player who is playing concentrated should never make such a mistake. I like to think myself as a reasonably good player but I usually play just for an hour or so late in the evening - not a very good time to be concentrated. Using the autosave can help me limit the consequences of my lack of concentration, and thus improve my enjoyment of the game - if I loose, I'd like it to be wrong strategic decisions instead of misclicks or oversights.

Do any of you agree with me? Can we think of strict enough rules to allow some use of this functionality without facilitating cheating (such as: no combat happened and no enemy units were seen between save and load) ?

Cheers,

Wouter

DISCLAIMER1: even though limited use of autosave is undetectable, the important issue for me is an ethical one. I don't cheat.

DISCLAIMER2 (or COROLLARY): In the current COTM/GOTM setup (if I'm not mistaken) loading for other reasons that continuing an interrupted sit or system crashes is forbidden. Thus, since I don't cheat, I will either not use the autosave in the abovementioned ways or not submit.

 

[Dianthus]

DISCLAIMER1: even though limited use of autosave is undetectable, the important issue for me is an ethical one. I don't cheat.

What make you think it can't be detected?

 

[grs]

There once was a page in the gotm area that allowed reloading due to misclics or obvious errors (like you mentioned them). I think it was the "Code of Conduct" but the link is dead now.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Well, AFAIK the only thing they can detect is how often I loaded, and since the above situation will probably not happen more than a couple times in a game (otherwise consider getting more sleep ) this should not affect the statistics. Again AFAIK, only determined battle or exploratory reloaders get caught.

Edit: @grs (crosspost): OK i didn't know that. What is the current rules or ettiquette re. reloading?

 

[ainwood]

Comments inserted

In no event, of course, should the autosave be used to alter the outcome of a battle, change a decision about a battle or negotiation because of seeing the results, etc. etc.

Agreed.

I can think of some good reasons to use the autosave

1) In the initial phase of the game, I forgot to set the luxury rate and a city is in civil disorder. Nothing happened between end-of-turn and new turn (ie no enemy civs are detected yet and no barbarians are moving)

Managing your cities is part of the game. If you 'forget', then why should you be allowed to reload? If you reload for this case, then people may start to legitimise reloading for (say) leaving a city undefended. If your city riots, it encourages you to be more carfeful next time (and you can use dianthus' utility to flag that a city is about to riot).

2) (just happened to me in COTM2) You attack with your special unit in a battle that 'cannot be lost', and trigger a Golden Age.... Normally you would realize that beforehand but one does not think of ships as causing GA's . [This is (imho but debatable) not changing a decision about a battle since the outcome (sinking a redlined galley with a dromon) is >>90% anyway]

Again, not acceptable IMHO. Again - the logical extension is to move your UU to stop it being attacked to trigger a GA. Reloading because you were careless can't really be justified.

3) mismoves, touchpad unintended clicks, other accidents

Genuine mistakes used to be allowed. I tend to play on regardless and take the consequences.

The common factor behind all scenarios is that a good player who is playing concentrated should never make such a mistake. I like to think myself as a reasonably good player but I usually play just for an hour or so late in the evening - not a very good time to be concentrated. Using the autosave can help me limit the consequences of my lack of concentration, and thus improve my enjoyment of the game - if I loose, I'd like it to be wrong strategic decisions instead of misclicks or oversights.

Well, if everyone was allowed to reload for every careless mistake, it would make the game less enjoyable. It would also make it very difficult to differentiate between an exceptionally careless player and one that is using reloading to purposely change battle outcomes, leader generation etc.

DISCLAIMER1: even though limited use of autosave is undetectable,

DISCLAIMER2 (or COROLLARY): In the current COTM/GOTM setup (if I'm not mistaken) loading for other reasons that continuing an interrupted sit or system crashes is forbidden. Thus, since I don't cheat, I will either not use the autosave in the abovementioned ways or not submit.

 

[samildanach]

Well, if everyone was allowed to reload for every careless mistake, it would make the game less enjoyable. It would also make it very difficult to differentiate between an exceptionally careless player and one that is using reloading to purposely change battle outcomes, leader generation etc.

Can the combats be retrieved from the end game save file? And the combat odds subsequently calculated.
Or rather what about from say a 10 AD save? Given that a good run of pRNG luck early is better than one later.

 

[ainwood]

Can the combats be retrieved from the end game save file? And the combat odds subsequently calculated.
Or rather what about from say a 10 AD save? Given that a good run of pRNG luck early is better than one later.

No. Combat results aren't stored. The only thing that is stored is what you see in the replay view at the end of the game.

 

[Denniz]

ainwood, how about allowing a 'Mulligan' for a 50% score penalty?

 

[samildanach]

ainwood, how about allowing a 'Mulligan' for a 50% score penalty?

That would be nice I'm already replaying COTM 3. This time in conquest class - hopefully I won't get whacked so early.
I'm not going to submit the original since Matrix isn't playing this month

 

[gozpel]

I think Matrix should get a laurel for Honesty. I just loved it

Btw, I do reload in certain circumstances and always told about it in the spoilers. (it happened twice I think) Once when my computer did some "maintenance" and I scattered 6-8 workers doing auto-works. The other time I double clicked and attacked someone I only wanted to talk to.

I play only by mouse and sometimes moves goes wrong and I live with that. But not when it changes the whole game I'm playing, then I reload from last autosave and replay it exactly.

By maintenance I mean when the computer suddenly decide to virus-check and stuff, that makes the game be put on hold for a few seconds and when I click here and there to see what happened, my units move all over the place. (Don't yell at me, the wife set THAT up)

I'm honest about those moves and got "away" with it. I also honestly tell when I get over-run, so in my book it's fair.

But to reload because something didn't go as expected, that is another thing. I don't choose a unit to move to a certain tile without a thought. If things go wrong from there I slap myself and play on. And when that elite doesn't win when I still have the chance to grab the Pyramids, I definitely take it.

I usually play in fairly short sessions and a whole game in 15-25 turnsets, depending on real life time.

So my advice is to live with "most" of it, I take my "mistakes" that was regarded as OK by the staff as "the limit" and won't look further to find holes in the setup. I got away with it then and will stay there and be even more careful to not doing it again, it will only make it more difficult for the staff to make rulings if we try to push the boundaries.

But certainly, things can happen and I would allow a reload only considering my circumstances, not to gain something.

If that has changed since I played those games, feel free to alter my scores.

 

[samildanach]

No. Combat results aren't stored. The only thing that is stored is what you see in the replay view at the end of the game.

I've never used a combat calculator. I guess one of those things could be adapted to record the results of combats as well? If they don't already. What about introducing a combat calculator/recorder to the GOTM as perhaps part of dianthus's CRP suite? Reloading itself isn't proof of cheating but consistently defying the odds is more dodgy.
Apart from the cheating angle it would be interesting to see which units are the most cost effective. I always seem to do better with swords than horses in the early game but that may be because I don't go with enough horses.

 

[gozpel]

What I really would like to see is a one-time save-file that disintegrates after opening it! Open the file and move it and the original is gone.

Or even better, try to open a file several times and a little "ticker" refer the count to the save.

That would get us away from ridicously early wins and find the cheaters.

No one named, no one accused.

Call me evil, but I like my ideas. If only someone could find a way to make them possible.

 

[Dianthus]

I've never used a combat calculator. I guess one of those things could be adapted to record the results of combats as well? If they don't already. What about introducing a combat calculator/recorder to the GOTM as perhaps part of dianthus's CRP suite?

There's a bit of a limitation with my CRpSuite in that it only reads the autosaves. This means I can't track individual movements/combat. I can only see the differences between the start of the previous turn and the start of the current turn.

Oh, and it also doesn't work on the Mac!

 

[Offa]

What I really would like to see is a one-time save-file that disintegrates after opening it! Open the file and move it and the original is gone.

Or even better, try to open a file several times and a little "ticker" refer the count to the save.

That would get us away from ridicously early wins and find the cheaters.

No one named, no one accused.

Call me evil, but I like my ideas. If only someone could find a way to make them possible.

I don't think this would help. The most powerful cheat is a complete 4000bc restart and I can't believe this is detectable. Reading spoiler threads before playing would have the same effect. I think we have to live with the possibility that some games may not be pure. Virtue is its own reward.

Now to restart from 4000bc: its all going to be soooo much better this time .

I also think "misclicks" should be allowed in cases like Gozpel described. For example if you just endured 8 turns of anarchy and accidently clicked to go back to despotism it would be cruel not to allow you to correct this at once. Reloading because of civil disorder etc is clearly unacceptable.

 

[Denniz]

That would be nice I'm already replaying COTM 3. This time in conquest class - hopefully I won't get whacked so early.
I'm not going to submit the original since Matrix isn't playing this month

I was only half serious. I don't think a full restart is possible due to map knowledge. Not that that would help me. I seem to have my problems in the MA. Mostly from not knowing how to play from behind. Those are the kind of games most of us quit. GOTM gives me a reason to try things I wouldn't have normally.

That would get us away from ridicously early wins and find the cheaters.

If you read the spoilers, it seems pretty clear that those scores are not from cheating. I can think of at least a couple of ways that Firaxis could have tracked reloads. And why not, it would only add to the community experience.

In the end, I don't see how anyone can get any satisfaction from submitting a game they know wasn't played legitimitely.

 

[Civgeek]

In the end, I don't see how anyone can get any satisfaction from submitting a game they know wasn't played legitimitely.

Sadly, there will always be people whose satisfaction comes from cheating or getting away with something behind people's backs that they know they're not suppossed to be doing, regardless of how trivial the activity may be. I think it makes them feel superior. There's enough examples of a lack of integrity in everyday life, you'd have to assume, sad as it seems, some people would cheat at something as harmless and ultimately diversionary as a computer game. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

The most powerful cheat is a complete 4000bc restart...

Yep, the possibility of that one is the most irritating to me. I really enjoy the pregame discussions, and then trying to make the "perfect" opening moves. Also, Ainwood has put forth some maps lately that really maximize the reward for strong opening decisions. Unfortunatly, this also rewards a player that has no compunction about cheating. They can go out and explore everything, then reload to settle on that "perfect" spot, or found immediately if they find a better location doesn't exist.

Usually, I don't think about this because it takes away from my enjoyment, but once in a while it does involuntarily pop into my head. Of course, that is usually when I discover that my opening decisions really blew...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Civgeek is absolutely right. It is interesting to take some of the top scoring games and use Dianthus' CivReplay utility (not naming names, but if you recognize your conduct here, yes I'm talking about you). It is amazing to me how that first settler seems to make a beeline to settle next to a strategic resource in some games. If that's your idea of winning great! I'm not going to have anything to do with it.

I think something the GOTM staff should look at is requiring everyone to make a report. It doesn't have to be long. But shining the light of day on a few of these questionable submissions may make them disappear.

 

[samildanach]

There's a bit of a limitation with my CRpSuite in that it only reads the autosaves.

It has.....LIMITATIONS! First it was santa, then the tooth fairy, then God and now CRpSuite....is nothing sacred!! This is a cold barren universe.

Oh, and it also doesn't work on the Mac!

Quite right! Those heretics should not be encouraged.

 

[Megalou]

Genuine mistakes used to be allowed. I tend to play on regardless and take the consequences.

Yep, that's the way it should be IMHO. Where would you draw the line otherwise? Hitting space bar before you have adjusted the happiness levels, or ESC before you have traded a tech, could also be seen as genuine mistakes.

Re computer failures, it would be really to hard if one was not allowed to reload, wouldn't it? All those hours you've put into it.