Aztec Leaders

[Caesar of Bread]

I'd rather see the Sikh Confederacy before a return of Modern India, and Bengal, as we know it in that light, was a vassal of the Mughals, and thus the Marathas can be put there.

aight, so Mughals, Mayura, Chola, Sikh, and Maratha?

 

[Patine]

As for India, I'm deeply against the granular political approach. Tamil (Dravidian may have to be used due to sensitivities, I'm not sure how sensitive the term Tamil is in India these days) is a better civilization than Chola (one out of many Tamil polities) ; and Maurya (only one of the ruling dynasties of Magadha, not even an actual country) a worse civilization than Magadha. The tendency to latch on to cool states and decide they are civilization tend to result in the erasure of other people and other parts of the history of cultures that do not, in fact, begin or end with that polity.

Well, do alternate leaders for nation that no notion of it's existence until British Colonialism, and then a cynical, divisive modern Government based on an independence movement that manipulatively used a man who never held political leadership as a mascot to cover their corruption and abuses that the Maurya, Guptas, Cholas, Marathas, Mughals, Sikh Confederacy, and all other historical South Asian polities would alien as a national identity REALLY suit better?

 

[Patine]

aight, so Mughals, Mayura, Chola, Sikh, and Maratha?

Yes.

 

[Evie]

I don't know if alternate leaders fit better, seeing as I didn't suggest that. Maybe you quoted the wrong person?

The idea I'm defending (originally drawn from Buchi Taton I believe) is the Magadha (rather than Maurya, which was just one of the dynasties of Magadha), Tamil/Dravidian (rather than Chola, the most successful but only one of the Tamil kingdom), Gurkani/Mughal (as in Turkic people of northwestern India, Afghanistan and Pakistan, not just the dynasty and state) split (with the possibility of one or two more civs). This is what I mean by less granularity. Not having just one India ; but trying to achieve maximum representation on a limited number of Indian tags.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I don't know if alternate leaders fit better, seeing as I didn't suggest that. Maybe you quoted the wrong person?

I think he wanted to quote @Alexander's Hetaroi

The idea I'm defending (originally drawn from Buchi Taton I believe) is the Magadha (rather than Maurya, which was just one of the dynasties of Magadha), Tamil/Dravidian (rather than Chola, the most successful but only one of the Tamil kingdom), Gurkani/Mughal (as in Turkic people of northwestern India, Afghanistan and Pakistan, not just the dynasty and state) split (with the possibility of one or two more civs). This is what I mean by less granularity. Not having just one India ; but trying to achieve maximum representation on a limited number of Indian tags.

interesting! Seems cool

 

[BuchiTaton]

If the Maya were going to get a different UU, one of the unusual things they were known for were throwing gourds filled with wasps or bees at opponents.

Hornet Thrower is certainly an interesting option but their historical use seems to be quite circumstantial and occasional. I know CIV combat system have absurd mechanics where a whole combat unit is made only by Bazooka infatry but a whole unit of Hornet Throwers, I am not sure about that.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Hornet Thrower is certainly an interesting option but their historical use seems to be quite circumstantial and occasional. I know CIV combat system have absurd mechanics where a whole combat unit is made only by Bazooka infatry but a whole unit of Hornet Throwers, I am not sure about that.

But it would be unique, which is the point of a unique unit right?
I find it more interesting than another rifle infantrymen, considering we are bound to have plenty of those.

 

[BuchiTaton]

But it would be unique, which is the point of a unique unit right?
I find it more interesting than another rifle infantrymen, considering we are bound to have plenty of those.

Romans also used bee hives in warfare, even catapulted them in naval combat, so what about "Bee Ships" or their famous anti-elephant Incendary Pigs.
I think Hornet Thrower can work for more detailed warfare centered games like AoE and TW series but for CIV it feel like a meme unit, other way the game would be full of units using all kind of exotic weapons instead of be distinctive combat units (groups) not weapons.

 

[Patine]

Romans also used bee hives in warfare, even catapulted them in naval combat, so what about "Bee Ships" or their famous anti-elephant Incendary Pigs.
I think Hornet Thrower can work for more detailed warfare centered games like AoE and TW series but for CIV it feel like a meme unit, other way the game would be full of units using all kind of exotic weapons instead of be distinctive combat units (groups) not weapons.

But few people are going to see a 19th Century Indigenous rebel unit and say, "Maya unique unit." That, I'm afraid, is much more tied to the Sioux or Mapuche identity, in most people's minds.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Romans also used bee hives in warfare, even catapulted them in naval combat, so what about "Bee Ships" or their famous anti-elephant Incendary Pigs.
I think Hornet Thrower can work for more detailed warfare centered games like AoE and TW series but for CIV it feel like a meme unit, other way the game would be full of units using all kind of exotic weapons instead of be distinctive combat units (groups) not weapons.

Sorry, but Civ Unique Units are replete with 'units' representing tiny fractions of the armies:
Berserkers, who were never more than a handful of Complete Nutters in a Viking army or raiding party.
The Garde Imperale, who were two regiments (Foot Grenadiers of the Old Guard) out of 200 infantry regiments in Napoleon's Grande Armee. That's 1% for you mathematicians, and it's actually less than that, since the two regiments of the Old Guard had only 2 battalions each and the other 198 light and line regiments all had 3 - 5 battalions each.
The Persian Immortals, who were at most 10,000 out of an estimated 80 - 100,000 in Xerxes' invasion force in Greece, and by Gaugamela only managed to field 2000 men in a front line Persian force of almost 40,000 - better than 1%, but it still leaves out over 90% of the Persian army!

So a few folks tossing bees representing an entire army is perfectly in keeping with Civ practice for Unique Units.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Sorry, but Civ Unique Units are replete with 'units' representing tiny fractions of the armies:
Berserkers, who were never more than a handful of Complete Nutters in a Viking army or raiding party.
The Garde Imperale, who were two regiments (Foot Grenadiers of the Old Guard) out of 200 infantry regiments in Napoleon's Grande Armee. That's 1% for you mathematicians, and it's actually less than that, since the two regiments of the Old Guard had only 2 battalions each and the other 198 light and line regiments all had 3 - 5 battalions each.
The Persian Immortals, who were at most 10,000 out of an estimated 80 - 100,000 in Xerxes' invasion force in Greece, and by Gaugamela only managed to field 2000 men in a front line Persian force of almost 40,000 - better than 1%, but it still leaves out over 90% of the Persian army!

So a few folks tossing bees representing an entire army is perfectly in keeping with Civ practice for Unique Units.

- Bersekers were linked to cults that required rituals to achieve their frantic trance. "Go Nutters" in battle is not the same that just "be a nut", their role to affect foe and ally morale make a lot of sense for a society with mystical beliefs.
- Garde Imperale was like any modern militar group a formal unit, in this case with a clear key role for the political leader of the nation.
- Immortals was also an obvious special elite corp.
Now what was the social class, clans, rituals, training, orders, titles or symbolic role of Hornet Throwers?
The main source of maya "hornet warfare" is the Popol Vuh about a single event were defenses were improvised with dummies and wild wasps put inside pottery.
There is not a dedicated group of people to keep the wasps, not a special role.

 

[Patine]

- Bersekers were linked to cults that required rituals to achieve their frantic trance. "Go Nutters" in battle is not the same that just "be a nut", their role to affect foe and ally morale make a lot of sense for a society with mystical beliefs.
- Garde Imperale was like any modern militar group a formal unit, in this case with a clear key role for the political leader of the nation.
- Immortals was also an obvious special elite corp.
Now what was the social class, clans, rituals, training, orders, titles or symbolic role of Hornet Throwers?
The main source of maya "hornet warfare" is the Popol Vuh about a single event were defenses were improvised with dummies and wild wasps put inside pottery.
There is not a dedicated group of people to keep the wasps, not a special role.

It's still not beyond of the pale for Civ unique units, especially for a lack of any other iconic and recognizable choices.

 

[BuchiTaton]

It's still not beyond of the pale for Civ unique units, especially for a lack of any other iconic and recognizable choices.

Of course. But lets see the whole picture if we talk about recognition...
- If we talk about units for civs like Mapuche, Sioux and lets add the Comanche is because they have notorious mounted units from seminomadic to nomadic cultures from the Americas. The Sioux and Lakota in the popular imaginary are traditional users of lance, axe and bow as much as guns, just remember the image of the Lakota lance decorated with feathers and leather.
These native civs with raider units could overlap between them, but would not overlap with modern native infantry.
- Mapuche is likely to cede their slot, not only to a nomadic NA native civ, but also to exchange between Southern and Northern SA the Colonial and Native roles. So we can have Muisca+Argentina instead of Mapuche+Colombia.
These take us to the situation were we have at least Aztec, Maya, Muisca and Inca all with infantry using stone to bronze weapons. Could not a modern native infantry add variety to the region? Mainly when Aztec and Inca units are actually iconic.

Maya civ in game is mostly the native american science civ, their leader, abilities and buildings are good enough to portrait their popular picture. The unit could be a chance for a novel element from their recent history. People would not stop buying any CIV dlc just because Maya civ dont have the generic looking shirtless and feathers in the head warrior that they associate with Maya, this is not a Jaguar or Eagle warrior situation. Neither Firaxis will get any "controversy", after all not even their "outside of the box" selection of leaders for civs like the Netherlands did it, that to be honest was barely polemic anyway.

 

[Patine]

Of course. But lets see the whole picture if we talk about recognition...
- If we talk about units for civs like Mapuche, Sioux and lets add the Comanche is because they have notorious mounted units from seminomadic to nomadic cultures from the Americas. The Sioux and Lakota in the popular imaginary are traditional users of lance, axe and bow as much as guns, just remember the image of the Lakota lance decorated with feathers and leather.
These native civs with raider units could overlap between them, but would not overlap with modern native infantry.
- Mapuche is likely to cede their slot, not only to a nomadic NA native civ, but also to exchange between Southern and Northern SA the Colonial and Native roles. So we can have Muisca+Argentina instead of Mapuche+Colombia.
These take us to the situation were we have at least Aztec, Maya, Muisca and Inca all with infantry using stone to bronze weapons. Could not a modern native infantry add variety to the region? Mainly when Aztec and Inca units are actually iconic.

Maya civ in game is mostly the native american science civ, their leader, abilities and buildings are good enough to portrait their popular picture. The unit could be a chance for a novel element from their recent history. People would not stop buying any CIV dlc just because Maya civ dont have the generic looking shirtless and feathers in the head warrior that they associate with Maya, this is not a Jaguar or Eagle warrior situation. Neither Firaxis will get the "controversy" from the "outside of the box" selection of leaders for civs like the Netherlands, that to be honest was barely polemic anyway.

But what I'm saying is, what you're proposing has no recognition handle with the majority of players. It is not merely, "out of the box," it outright defies expectations, and would likely make the civ very unpopular, though, I agree, it wouldn't hurt the series, in and of itself.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I don't really mind what they do as long as they still have Gandhi

 

[Patine]

I don't really mind what they do as long as they still have Gandhi

Gandhi can sit one out, for crying out loud?

 

[GeneralZIft]

Gandhi can sit one out, for crying out loud?

It's not Civ without Gandhi.
I mean you might say it is, some people might agree, but you know the developers wouldn't get rid of what is basically their mascot

 

[Patine]

It's not Civ without Gandhi.
I mean you might say it is, some people might agree, but you know the developers wouldn't get rid of what is basically their mascot

I think Civ can be stellar moving beyond the bad charicature and mockery of the Mahatma.

 

[GeneralZIft]

Literally every leader is a caricature, that's the point of the series?
I do understand your point, but at the end of the day, if he's not in the game, who's going to be the goofy peaceful faith loving AI who harbours a nuclear hatred inside his heart?
You can call it corny (I do) but it's part of the series at this point, and I would be surprised if they ever got rid of it

 

[Patine]

Literally every leader is a caricature, that's the point of the series?
I do understand your point, but at the end of the day, if he's not in the game, who's going to be the goofy peaceful faith loving AI who harbours a nuclear hatred inside his heart?
You can call it corny (I do) but it's part of the series at this point, and I would be surprised if they ever got rid of it

Well, though it has no guaranteed meaning, either way, he wasn't in the, "Happy Holidays from Civ6," Twitter image linked yesterday.