Backstabbers

[The Almighty dF]

I tried to find a thread on the subject, but couldn't. So.
Let's talk about what leaders make terrible partners because they'll just turn against you in the end.

I've personally had the following declare while they were still friendly with me:
Tokugawa
Mao Zedong
Stalin
Catherine the Great
Saladin (aka Catherine the Great posing as a man)
Shaka (who also zerg-rushses)
Pacal II
Genghis Khan
Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar

I also seem to remember Isabella II, Kublai Khan, Boudica, and Qin Shi Huang doing the same.

Other poor allies I've encountered include Lincoln and Sitting Bull. I swear they never, -ever- assist me. Their enemies are invading me and they just sit by.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What? Some of the people you list don't even declare at pleased (boudica, sal, augustus). Licoln and sitting bull don't either, but SB will be bribed @ pleased if he is cautious or worse with the target...and he builds a lot of units though tends to be backwards.

I've never seen izzy declare on me while in her religion. She almost always does eventually if i'm not.

Only cathy can be bribed to declare on someone she's friendly with. Nobody else declares at friendly short of AP wars or interface lies.

 

[michmbk]

I thought Augustus didn't declare at pleased - maybe he was readying an army for you before he got to pleased and friendly? The rest of your list off the top of my head I think are ones who will backstab. Most notorious for me have been Cathy, Shaka, Monty and Izzy. I swear I've had one game in my life where I didn't end up at war with Izzy at some point. At least with Shaka and Monty you assume war.


EDIT - TMIT beat me to it. There's a great reference guide in the strategy articles forum that will tell you all of this info. I printed out those pages and handwrote on a sheet of paper the people who would DOW at pleased and what the peace probability was at pleased for those backstabbers. Takes about 15 minutes, but it is the most useful cheat sheet I have when playing the game.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

DoW at friendly: impossible, unless they entered wheoohrn mode at pleased and went friendly later, but the decision was already made.
Exception to this rule is Catherine. She can be bribed to declare war vs you when she's friendly. Not sure about the briber. Probably has to be pleased with her.

EDIT:
These leaders don't declare at pleased:

- Asoka
- Augustus Caesar
- Boudica
- Brennus
- Charlie
- Churchill
- Cyrus
- Darius
- DeGaulle
- Frederick
- Gandhi
- Hammurabi. Yes, Hammurabi. And he has a decent 70 peaceprob at cautious, tied with people like Hatty.
- Hathshepsut
- Joao. Another surprise, considering he's a total jerk.
- Justinian. On a sidenote, he has one of the highest peaceprob at cautious, 80.
- Lincoln
- You'd expect Mansa at this point, but he can declare war at pleased.
- Mehmed. See Hammurabi.
- Pericles
- Ramesses
- Saladin
- Sitting Bull. Winner for highest peaceprob at cautious, 90.
- Suleiman
- Wang Kon
- Washington

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I thought Augustus didn't declare at pleased - maybe he was readying an army for you before he got to pleased and friendly? The rest of your list off the top of my head I think are ones who will backstab. Most notorious for me have been Cathy, Shaka, Monty and Izzy. I swear I've had one game in my life where I didn't end up at war with Izzy at some point. At least with Shaka and Monty you assume war.

If you run izzy's religion AND theocracy, she will literally GUSH over you. You'll be at like +15 just from those two. Fair trade/OB/etc means it's almost impossible for her to hate you if you're not a filthy heathen .

 

[The Almighty dF]

What? Some of the people you list don't even declare at pleased (boudica, sal, augustus). Licoln and sitting bull don't either, but SB will be bribed @ pleased if he is cautious or worse with the target...and he builds a lot of units though tends to be backwards.

I've never seen izzy declare on me while in her religion. She almost always does eventually if i'm not.

Only cathy can be bribed to declare on someone she's friendly with. Nobody else declares at friendly short of AP wars or interface lies.

I didn't say Lincoln and SB declared at pleased/friendly. They just never aide me when I need them to, and seem to be terribly unfair traders.

Izzy seems to declare no matter what if you aren't part of her faith.
Boudica and Augustus I may be mistaken about (Boudica seems to be bipolar and Augustus seems to suddenly rage out of nowhere) but I know I'm not mistaken about Saladin.
I've had the most trouble with Sal. His backstabbing has cost me so many games in the past that I refuse all deals from him now and generally side with whoever he doesn't like, just so I can go ahead and wipe him out.

 

[michmbk]

If you run izzy's religion AND theocracy, she will literally GUSH over you. You'll be at like +15 just from those two. Fair trade/OB/etc means it's almost impossible for her to hate you if you're not a filthy heathen .

I've used the religion approach with her a few times. I recall recently sharing religion - we were friendly for a long time - after I went into free religion, though, sure enough, she dropped down, and DOWed me. But I'm always prepared for her thankfully.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sal behaves almost identically with Izzy. His religion + theo = BFF <3 <3 <3. Ew. I'll take izzy any day over that. But even so, that's how it is. Zara is pretty similar to them also.

 

[madscientist]

There is a difference between back-stabbers, war-mongers, and zealots

Back-Stabbers

Cathy
Qin
Mao
Mehmed
Peter
Julius


Reliable war-mongers
Shaka
Toku
Ghengis

Zealots
Isabella
Justinian
Zara
Charlemagne
Saladin


Honarable mention for all three cats
Monty

 

[The Almighty dF]

Peter and Mehmed are backstabbers too? Good to know.

What about Ramesses II? He always seems like a hard leader to please. I don't think he's ever friendly towards me, unlike Hatshepsut who is quite the cheap date.

"You're giving me Literature? ;_; I've never been so happy in my life."

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Mehmed is not a backstabber, he doesn't declare war at pleased and has a decent 70 peaceprob at cautious.
A leader like Mehmed with the peaceprob of, say, Montezuma, would be PAINFUL to deal with. He still builds a lot of units (don't remember his value right now) but actually run good empires and don't fall behind like the most obvious warmongers.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Mehmed doesn't declare at pleased!!

Edit: Mehmed is tied for #1 unit prob in the entire game, AHEAD of monty. If he declared at pleased he'd be one of the most devastating AIs in the game.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Can anyone link me to this reference sheet with all this info? Could be a lot of help for me.
I've been basing my alliances more based on traits (never, ever befriending someone with Imp, for instance) than anything else.

 

[Winston Hughes]

This should do the trick.

 

[michmbk]

I think this is the one I have.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9043

 

[The Almighty dF]

This should do the trick.

I think this is the one I have.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9043

Thanks. Finally I can stop being paranoid of my neighbors.

 

[JujuLautre]

Situations where a leader can DOW you while he is at friendly:
- took the decision to attack you previously (while at pleased or worse)
- Cathy can be bribed while at friendly, will not DOW by herself though
- Apostolic palace holy war
- you have vassals (the attitude of a leader to your team becomes the average attitude he has for every member of the team)
- random events ? Not sure, but I think there is one

 

[The Almighty dF]

Yeah, I confused friendly and pleased. I thought pleased was the highest and friendly was right below that, then cautious.

 

[Phil725]

Here's the list of backstabbers for anyone that just wants to see it without hunting through the reference sheet.

20% chance to declare at pleased if they decide to war (notorious backstabbers):
-Alexander
-Cathy
-Louis XIV
-Mao
-Monty
-Qin Shi Huang
-Victoria
-Willem

10% chance to declare at pleased if they decide to war (can declare at pleased):
-Bismarck
-Elizabeth
-Genghis Khan
-Gilgamesh
-Huayna Capac
-Isabella
-Julius Caesar
-Kublai Khan
-Mansa Musa
-Napoleon
-Pacal
-Peter
-Ragnar
-Roosevelt
-Shaka
-Stalin
-Sury
-Toku
-Zara

Anyone not on this list will not declare at pleased, although as was already stated, there are some exceptions to this rule (decided before hitting pleased etc.) This obviously isn't the only factor, I would think your much more likely to have a pleased Shaka declare on you than a pleased Victoria based on other factors. But don't feel too safe if your neighbored by any of these leaders. I myself was very surprised to see that over half of the leaders can declare at pleased

 

[The Almighty dF]

So, zealots are basically potential backstabbers except they only attack for religious reasons?
Like, their relationship with you doesn't matter. It just matters that you share a faith.