Barbarian early game developer logic

[Sjaramei]

Can someone explain this to me? I am fine with barbarians attacking my city if I leave a camp up, that's not the issue. It's fun fighting barbarians early on, however why does it sometimes randomly seem to spawn horsemen/archers from the beginning? (I am playing epic speed if that matters) It screws up games because it takes twice as long to clean up the mess, and makes the start unpredictable. Sometimes I want to start with a builder before warrior/slinger to get production going, but with horsemen that makes it a bad idea every time. (warrior/slinger invasion is much easier to deal with, and slower)

I just don't get why this is a thing needed. The first wave should always be warrior/slingers in my opinion. If they also could tweak the city states and AI cleaning up camps a bit that would be great. Sometimes I can go greedy as hell if there are city states around, and that should not be a thing.

 

[manu-fan]

If the Barbarian camp spawns near horses, and the scout gets back to the camp after scouting out your city, it will spawn Horsemen. I haven't noticed Barbarian archers at all. Are you sure, they are spawning?

 

[Browd]

When barb horse units spawn, they will be a mix of horsemen and horse archers.

 

[manu-fan]

When barb horse units spawn, they will be a mix of horsemen and horse archers.

Ahh, I thought he meant regular Archers. Yeah, I've seen Horse Archers.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Prioritize eliminating all Barbarian camps near horses. IIRC, they'll spawn Horsemen if there's horses within 3 tiles form the camp.

 

[Magil]

Note that the barbarian horsemen are quite strange in that the ones that tend to spawn very early on, before anybody has researched the prerequisite tech, have a very low strength value about on par with a warrior (so they're essentially just 4-move warriors). Of course on higher difficulties, the AI will probably have the horsemen tech early and this will result in full-strength horsemen showing up very early. Barbarian horse archers are quite weak as well, essentially 3-move slingers iirc.

 

[Gub]

I think that changes to Barbarians have been made as part of the overall emphasis on map and exploration. Their main goal seem to impede civilization progress (but not to eliminate players\AIs from the game) making thing a little less predictable for the player forcing him to get involved earlier.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Me likes expanding using close neighbours, actually

 

[PendragonWRB]

I have to say the barbarian horsemen are just insanely OP. On my current Deity game, I have two camps 'nearby' (both about 6 tiles away). The southern one snuck a scout in while my units headed towards the north camp and proceeded to hit me with a handful of horsemen which completely ignore ZoC and move like four tiles making it near impossible to avoid them ganging up on my units. It takes over three archer shots to kill them and they laugh at my warriors. I committed all of my available units south, and then out of the blue, the north camp (behind 3 tiles of jungle btw) started spawning horsemen every other turn. Needless to say a rage quit ensued a few turns later when half my screen was filled with horsemen and horse archers flying everywhere. There was never a scout from the north that headed my way yet the north camp double teamed me. Since when do barbarians have long distance communication?

The next night I reloaded and it took like 8 units and a few reloads to survive the onslaught. Is this what most Deity games are like? I did not have that problem on my first two.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

IIRC, in Deity the barbarian spawn rate is greatly increased. You also got unlucky that both had access to horses, in both extremes. Kinda Harold Godwinson style.

 

[dturtle1]

When getting hit on by Horse Packs, especially when they have got the upgrade due to tech(much more likely on higher difficulties) you just have to makeup the difference using defensive bonuses . Cycle warriors in Wooded Hills and with Archers. Only use slingers for the finish on turn(or within one turn). Dont slug it out in rough ground. Try to make sure the Horses is always in Flat ground and you are in rough. Use your increased healing in your own Land combined with defensive rough terrain to just soak the damage. It is not hard to make up the raw difference in power, you just have play defence and then counter punch.

Also the start is unpredictable, you can get lucky with neighbors, CS, Natural Wonders, whether or not you have a few lush 4-5 yield tiles from the get go. You can also get unlucky with neighbours, with crappy tile yields, with getting that Goody Hut that gives you the inspiration for Craftmanship the turn after you complete a builder, with you realising 10 turns in that you got the poor land and all your neighbors got the good land. or that 2 Barbie camps spawned with horses either side of your capital. Them's the breaks. --- Re-roll if you want.

 

[Sjaramei]

If every start was similar power I wouldn't have a problem with it. But sometimes the low production starts are crippling because of the horsemen. You barely get out enough units to deal with it, and have no economic progress at all. (with low production, so you are screwed getting districts up etc.) Which kind of forces you into some aggression against AI to keep up, with a low production start... You see where this is going. I'd rather not reroll starts a lot when the solution is so simple.

 

[Wr4ith]

If every start was similar power I wouldn't have a problem with it. But sometimes the low production starts are crippling because of the horsemen. You barely get out enough units to deal with it, and have no economic progress at all. (with low production, so you are screwed getting districts up etc.) Which kind of forces you into some aggression against AI to keep up, with a low production start... You see where this is going. I'd rather not reroll starts a lot when the solution is so simple.

And that's kinda good in my opinion, need to adapt to situation. Depending on starting position, you have to choose and go certain tactic. Barbarian mass force force you to build larger army, so you will be down on sci/culture (later buildings). But with big army already built, you can make war with more advanced neighbor, who didnt had problems with barbs and have no army. It fits also the historic context pretty well

 

[Sjaramei]

There is no adaption at all. We disagree there. You can't "adapt" to horsemen. You build the same early game army as you would if there was a warrior camp. If you drop the random horsemen first wave, there is room for teching to spears, and as such "adapt". No such thing is possible with the current design.

As for historic context, horsemen before 3000 bc does not fit at all. Chariots wrecked the egyptians, and I see none of those.

 

[PendragonWRB]

I wouldn't mind re-rolling so much if the game would remember my advanced settings choices. I did re-roll last night because of poor fresh water availability left me no where near enough decent city locations to settle. I still feel you shouldn't have to deal with barbarian horseman as early as you do. It's entirely too easy with the more than likely two camps in range of your capitol that a scout can sneak in and out run your units to trigger an attack party. That I am OK with, but not when that party is mostly horsemen that can own slingers and scouts. You also don't really have the luxury of digging in and playing defensive because that camp or camps is just going to keep pumping more out, way faster than you can kill them. Having to dedicate all of your production to building units, not to mention the support costs is just game breaking on Deity.

 

[sugerdady87]

I wouldn't mind re-rolling so much if the game would remember my advanced settings choices. I did re-roll last night because of poor fresh water availability left me no where near enough decent city locations to settle. I still feel you shouldn't have to deal with barbarian horseman as early as you do. It's entirely too easy with the more than likely two camps in range of your capitol that a scout can sneak in and out run your units to trigger an attack party. That I am OK with, but not when that party is mostly horsemen that can own slingers and scouts. You also don't really have the luxury of digging in and playing defensive because that camp or camps is just going to keep pumping more out, way faster than you can kill them. Having to dedicate all of your production to building units, not to mention the support costs is just game breaking on Deity.

Change your build order. Stop making scouts and make slingers/warriors to deal with the camps at the start, then conquer your neighbors with an archer rush.

 

[diamond geezer]

The Barbarian Horsemen are actually quite weak, even on Deity. You just need to clear the camps quickly, before they start serious spawning. Clearly they are more of a threat to some civilizations than others...

 

[Baba Yetu VI]

If the Barbarian camp spawns near horses, and the scout gets back to the camp after scouting out your city, it will spawn Horsemen. I haven't noticed Barbarian archers at all. Are you sure, they are spawning?

Good, that's logical.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

If Horseback Riding isn't researched, Barbarian Horsemen are weaker. In Deity, the AI techs it very quickly due to the bonuses. So it isn't illogical that Barbarian Horsemen gets horsemen at the same time most of the world does.

And I don't think building units is sub-optimal on Deity. If the Barbarians don't come knocking on your door, certainly another Civ will.

 

[Baba Yetu VI]

Talking about weaker, if I do Encampment Training, would that increase the combat capabilities of the units generated ?