First, I'm new to FfH2. Just started playing it yesterday. I'm loving it, but I have noticed a very frustrating aspect of the game - I have yet to win a single fight against barbarians or wild animals. I'm on turn 224 and I've attacked barbarians and animals with hunters, bloodpets, moroi, and archers. I'm guessing there have been about 10 fights. I have won zero - either on the attack or on the defense. As this is my first game, I started with the second to easiest difficulty. My inability to beat random skeleton barbarians and roaming elephants is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'll keep trying.
Barbarians a little...overpowered
- Thread starter rrouland
- Start date
The barbarians in this mod are tougher than normal civilization, so that is something to prepare for. Some advice:
Warriors in general are strong enough to win against some barbarians, if you use terrain well, and use enough of them. Rule of thumb is probably to use 2-3 per settler when moving settlers out, and keeping 2-3 per city. This will defend fine against other warriors, goblins, skeletons, and most animals, though you will want the extra warriors in a stack for better defense.
Animals themselves will not attack if they end up within cultural borders, and will not try to enter them. (I think this is like base civilization, though don't remember too well.). This means that, even if you are up against animals like bears that often beat warriors, you'll still be safe if you can maneuver well, and send enough warriors so the settler can reach the target and found a city.
Elephants will never actually attack you at all, so there's no need to attack them unless they're getting in the way somehow. They are 8 strength, so will defeat most early units.
Use terrain defenses well. Warriors get a bonus to city defense, plus the fortification bonus, so inside cities should will usually beat anything early game except Orthus, or other really strong barbarians. If barbarians attempt to attack a city, move weak units into it, than let the barbarians attack, when they do so, they will usually loose unless in a big group. Outside cities, try to move so that warriors are on hills, in forests, across rivers, etc. from barbarians. If the defenses are good enough, warriors alone should be able to either defeat most enemies, or wear them down to uselessness. Don't worry as much about loosing warriors as about getting to good city locations.
Getting bronze works out quite well for early warriors, as well as getting more powerful units that can better handle barbarians.
Scouts are designed in such a way that you will often loose them. You'll just have to build replacements for these. For hunters, keep terrain defenses in mind while moving them around.
Attacking barbarian cities in the early game will be really tough if they get archers. There's nothing to do here except get a lot of units, bronze, and/or more advanced units.
For areas like dungeons, graveyards, etc., you'll want to avoid exploring these, or attacking these, before you get a good amount of units. Warriors can work fine for open areas, if you keep terrain defenses in mind and move well. If you wait until getting adepts, graveyards can be dealt with using some death and life spells without generating enemy units.
The special barbarians (acheron, Orthus, Tumtum) will be much tougher than normal, as you might expect. For Orthus, if you see a message (I forget exactly what it is) saying that he is spawned, check where he has spawned, and if it is close enough to attack you quickly, start building lots of warriors. (There's not much else you can do when Orthus usually appears). Try to get Orthus to attack a warrior with high defense bonuses, than overwhelm him with other warriors.
For Acheron, you'll have to wait for more advanced units. siege units and rangers are usually suggested, and later game summons are also often useful. You'll need some method of getting rid of the units that support acheron as well (these include both regular barbarian units and some powerful fire mage units.)
tumtum, at least in my games, usually appears when I have more advanced units for defense, and isn't too hard to get rid of. Just make sure you've been researching well and building advanced units.
In the later game, advanced units will help significantly against barbarians, and the number of them will decrease.
Warriors in general are strong enough to win against some barbarians, if you use terrain well, and use enough of them. Rule of thumb is probably to use 2-3 per settler when moving settlers out, and keeping 2-3 per city. This will defend fine against other warriors, goblins, skeletons, and most animals, though you will want the extra warriors in a stack for better defense.
Animals themselves will not attack if they end up within cultural borders, and will not try to enter them. (I think this is like base civilization, though don't remember too well.). This means that, even if you are up against animals like bears that often beat warriors, you'll still be safe if you can maneuver well, and send enough warriors so the settler can reach the target and found a city.
Elephants will never actually attack you at all, so there's no need to attack them unless they're getting in the way somehow. They are 8 strength, so will defeat most early units.
Use terrain defenses well. Warriors get a bonus to city defense, plus the fortification bonus, so inside cities should will usually beat anything early game except Orthus, or other really strong barbarians. If barbarians attempt to attack a city, move weak units into it, than let the barbarians attack, when they do so, they will usually loose unless in a big group. Outside cities, try to move so that warriors are on hills, in forests, across rivers, etc. from barbarians. If the defenses are good enough, warriors alone should be able to either defeat most enemies, or wear them down to uselessness. Don't worry as much about loosing warriors as about getting to good city locations.
Getting bronze works out quite well for early warriors, as well as getting more powerful units that can better handle barbarians.
Scouts are designed in such a way that you will often loose them. You'll just have to build replacements for these. For hunters, keep terrain defenses in mind while moving them around.
Attacking barbarian cities in the early game will be really tough if they get archers. There's nothing to do here except get a lot of units, bronze, and/or more advanced units.
For areas like dungeons, graveyards, etc., you'll want to avoid exploring these, or attacking these, before you get a good amount of units. Warriors can work fine for open areas, if you keep terrain defenses in mind and move well. If you wait until getting adepts, graveyards can be dealt with using some death and life spells without generating enemy units.
The special barbarians (acheron, Orthus, Tumtum) will be much tougher than normal, as you might expect. For Orthus, if you see a message (I forget exactly what it is) saying that he is spawned, check where he has spawned, and if it is close enough to attack you quickly, start building lots of warriors. (There's not much else you can do when Orthus usually appears). Try to get Orthus to attack a warrior with high defense bonuses, than overwhelm him with other warriors.
For Acheron, you'll have to wait for more advanced units. siege units and rangers are usually suggested, and later game summons are also often useful. You'll need some method of getting rid of the units that support acheron as well (these include both regular barbarian units and some powerful fire mage units.)
tumtum, at least in my games, usually appears when I have more advanced units for defense, and isn't too hard to get rid of. Just make sure you've been researching well and building advanced units.
In the later game, advanced units will help significantly against barbarians, and the number of them will decrease.
Check out the odds before you attack. You have to get a bunch of untis, barbarians and animals are more of a threat in FfH than they are in base Civ.
Most of the experienced players have learned exactly how much they need to beat them. If they are quite powerful, don't be too macho to hide in cities. Often barbarians get whittled down attacking your fortified units in cities. Animals will never go into your cultural borders so you can stay safe from them in your territory.
Best wishes,
Breunor
Most of the experienced players have learned exactly how much they need to beat them. If they are quite powerful, don't be too macho to hide in cities. Often barbarians get whittled down attacking your fortified units in cities. Animals will never go into your cultural borders so you can stay safe from them in your territory.
Best wishes,
Breunor
Thanks guys for the great tips. I'm having a lot of fun with this game and it's a bit more challenging than vanilla Civ IV. I received the 3 hill giants (Larry, Curly and Moe - nice touch) and went on a rampage with them...until I attacked a tiger and got my ass whooped. 
Oh well. I like a nice challenge from the AI opponents and I've played many games on Civ IV Warlords and they can barely mount a defense, let alone an offense. But in FfH2 I've already had two massive invasions by neighboring opponents that was well executed and was really a challenge. Nice!
Oh well. I like a nice challenge from the AI opponents and I've played many games on Civ IV Warlords and they can barely mount a defense, let alone an offense. But in FfH2 I've already had two massive invasions by neighboring opponents that was well executed and was really a challenge. Nice!Don't forget that you can capture animals if you fight them (and win) with a hunter promoted with "subdue animal" which requires "combat I". "Subdue animal" also gives a significant bonus against animals, but not against non-beast barbarian units.
Animals start with hidden nationality, which means that you can use them to harass weaker, isolated AI units with them, without risking war.
Griffons have a strenght of 4, movement of 2, hidden nationality and flying. They make into wonderful explorers. When they are hurt, let them rest on peaks, where only other griffons may attack them, but not on the sea, in whose deeps dangers lurk...
Moreover, bears can be sacrificed within cities to build "dancing bears" (+1 happiness, +3 culture). Most other animals can, too, after you build a carnival, while elephants can be upgraded into war elephants in your cities after you research horseback riding, giving you a strenght 7, hidden nationality early juggernought capable of attacking, too.
Animals start with hidden nationality, which means that you can use them to harass weaker, isolated AI units with them, without risking war.
Griffons have a strenght of 4, movement of 2, hidden nationality and flying. They make into wonderful explorers. When they are hurt, let them rest on peaks, where only other griffons may attack them, but not on the sea, in whose deeps dangers lurk...
Moreover, bears can be sacrificed within cities to build "dancing bears" (+1 happiness, +3 culture). Most other animals can, too, after you build a carnival, while elephants can be upgraded into war elephants in your cities after you research horseback riding, giving you a strenght 7, hidden nationality early juggernought capable of attacking, too.
Beware of the unique terrain feature called "Guardians of Pristin Pass". If any unit moves next to it, it will spawn 3 barbarian gargoyles (8 Str, 1 Move). Once they spawn you won't be able to do anything about them for a very long time.
I thought they act like animals, wandering around randomly and staying outside culture borders, but they destroyed a new city of mine once.
Don't settle too close to it, as AIs will happily trigger it for you.
I thought they act like animals, wandering around randomly and staying outside culture borders, but they destroyed a new city of mine once.
Don't settle too close to it, as AIs will happily trigger it for you.
I started a new game. About turn 40, a specter (9 attack, 100% strength) wanders into my kingdom of 5 cities and quickly destroys two of my cities. I gather an army of warriors and try to attack the specter but they're "afraid" and won't attack. The Specter takes turns taking a city, while my stack of warriors follows it around to take them back. Yay fun! I like a challenge, but this is stupid. I'm starting over and setting it to "No Barbarians".
Did you try to explore a dangerous site? If you did, getting a spectre doesn't have anything to do with barbarians; indeed, even if you play without barbarians you can still get powerful mosters from lairs and sites. Be real careful about exploration before you have the strength to deal with the denizens that may jump out.
If you didn't explore, getting a strong spectre is odd - indeed, I'm surprised there was a 9 point spectre.
Best wishes,
Breunor
Emptiness
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Unfortunately, that can happen - although it is fairly rare. If a barbarian unit wins a combat and survives until the next turn (when it purchases promotions) it can become deadly. Lizardmen (because of their base 4 strength) and Skeletons (because they can become Spectres and then Wraiths) are the worst in that regard. There's not much you can do to prevent that from happening in an AI-controlled area, but you can manage it in your own area by making sure to kill any barbarian unit you fight in one turn (ie don't let it buy promotions with the experience it earns from killing your units).
Of course turning off barbarians will cut down on that problem, but it does take away from the feel of the game. If you want to overcome this type of obstacle in the early game, then here are some guidelines:
A) Build lots of Warriors. Your Warriors are going to die, so you will need to replace them. Don't wait to build the replacements until you don't have enough Warriors. Build as many as you need, then build some more, then build replacements for those. Then, when a Warrior dies, build one or two more. Also, build more Warriors.
B) Try to kill barbarians by attacking them. You will earn more xp that way - but don't throw away units. Try to make your attacks when the odds are advantageous (ie let the barbarian move off that forested hill before you engage).
C) Move your Warriors in groups. If one of the Warriors loses a battle the others can kill the Barbarian that killed it.
D) Preserve your experienced Warriors. Generally what I do is when a Warrior becomes "well promoted" (the exact definition of which will vary based on my situation in the game, but generally it means that the unit will have a 99.9% odds of victory against a barbarian Warrior on open ground) I will send it to garrison a city. Less-well promoted Warriors are in the field and respond to encroaching barbarians. They either die (and are replaced) or win and gain promotions (increasing their odds of victory) until they too are "retired". When I get the ability to upgrade my Warriors to stronger unit types, the well promoted garrison Warriors are the ones I upgrade.
E) Pay attention to the rest of the world. If you hear that an AI civ has lost a city to the barbarians, or been eliminated, then there's a good chance that there is now a very well-promoted barbarian roaming around. Prepare for the possibility that it might attack you by building more Warriors, especially if the AI that it is attacking is close to you.
F) Take advantage of the weaknesses of the barbarians:
. . . I) They like to attack units. You can use this to lure them into terrain with a defense penalty (or at least out of defense bonus terrain) before you engage them, by positioning a sacrificial unit adjacent to the barbarian unit and in the terrain into which you want to lure it. This works well against well-promoted Orc units, and is an important tactic for minimizing your losses when defeating Orthus.
. . . II) They like to attack units better than they like to pause to heal. This is especially important for dealing with Spectres and Wraiths, because their Fear makes it effectively impossible for you to overwhelm them in one turn. What you can do is nullify their Fear by fortifying a large group of Warriors in a city they are attacking. (Fear does not prevent a unit from defending, and Fear cannot cause units to flee when they are defending a city.) The barbarian will attack and kill a Warrior each turn, but it won't pause to heal. Each time it gets enough xp to gain a promotion it will recover some health, but eventually the gap between promotions will become long. Each Warrior may only do a very small bit of damage to the barbarian, but over time its luck will run out and you will win (provided you don't run out of Warriors before it runs out of health, of course). Make sure all your cities are building Warriors and sending them to reinforce the besieged city until the attacker finally dies.
G) Don't mess with Lairs/Dungeons/Goblin Forts/Barbarian Cities until you are confident you can win. You can't prevent an AI from feeding xp to barbarian defenders, but you can avoid doing it yourself. Popping something nasty out of a Dungeon can effectively end a game. So, don't risk that until you have an army that can kill whatever appears.
Of course turning off barbarians will cut down on that problem, but it does take away from the feel of the game. If you want to overcome this type of obstacle in the early game, then here are some guidelines:
A) Build lots of Warriors. Your Warriors are going to die, so you will need to replace them. Don't wait to build the replacements until you don't have enough Warriors. Build as many as you need, then build some more, then build replacements for those. Then, when a Warrior dies, build one or two more. Also, build more Warriors.
B) Try to kill barbarians by attacking them. You will earn more xp that way - but don't throw away units. Try to make your attacks when the odds are advantageous (ie let the barbarian move off that forested hill before you engage).
C) Move your Warriors in groups. If one of the Warriors loses a battle the others can kill the Barbarian that killed it.
D) Preserve your experienced Warriors. Generally what I do is when a Warrior becomes "well promoted" (the exact definition of which will vary based on my situation in the game, but generally it means that the unit will have a 99.9% odds of victory against a barbarian Warrior on open ground) I will send it to garrison a city. Less-well promoted Warriors are in the field and respond to encroaching barbarians. They either die (and are replaced) or win and gain promotions (increasing their odds of victory) until they too are "retired". When I get the ability to upgrade my Warriors to stronger unit types, the well promoted garrison Warriors are the ones I upgrade.
E) Pay attention to the rest of the world. If you hear that an AI civ has lost a city to the barbarians, or been eliminated, then there's a good chance that there is now a very well-promoted barbarian roaming around. Prepare for the possibility that it might attack you by building more Warriors, especially if the AI that it is attacking is close to you.
F) Take advantage of the weaknesses of the barbarians:
. . . I) They like to attack units. You can use this to lure them into terrain with a defense penalty (or at least out of defense bonus terrain) before you engage them, by positioning a sacrificial unit adjacent to the barbarian unit and in the terrain into which you want to lure it. This works well against well-promoted Orc units, and is an important tactic for minimizing your losses when defeating Orthus.
. . . II) They like to attack units better than they like to pause to heal. This is especially important for dealing with Spectres and Wraiths, because their Fear makes it effectively impossible for you to overwhelm them in one turn. What you can do is nullify their Fear by fortifying a large group of Warriors in a city they are attacking. (Fear does not prevent a unit from defending, and Fear cannot cause units to flee when they are defending a city.) The barbarian will attack and kill a Warrior each turn, but it won't pause to heal. Each time it gets enough xp to gain a promotion it will recover some health, but eventually the gap between promotions will become long. Each Warrior may only do a very small bit of damage to the barbarian, but over time its luck will run out and you will win (provided you don't run out of Warriors before it runs out of health, of course). Make sure all your cities are building Warriors and sending them to reinforce the besieged city until the attacker finally dies.
G) Don't mess with Lairs/Dungeons/Goblin Forts/Barbarian Cities until you are confident you can win. You can't prevent an AI from feeding xp to barbarian defenders, but you can avoid doing it yourself. Popping something nasty out of a Dungeon can effectively end a game. So, don't risk that until you have an army that can kill whatever appears.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
Casting 'Summon Skeleton' (Death 1) on a Graveyard will give you 3 Skeletons.
Casting 'Sanctify' (Life 1) on a Graveyard removes it (iirc, feel free to correct me)
Casting 'Resurrection' (Life 3) on a Graveyard produces a Champion.
Quite simply, you're best off exploring them. Getting 3 Skeletons instead of 1 can be handy in a pinch (more wall fodder) but it's not that powerful. Getting a Champion can also be handy, but if you have a unit with Life 3 then one more Champion probably won't make a difference. And none of them are as cool as a free tech. Take advantage of the fact that a unit can move after looting a graveyard, so if it spawns nasties you can run away.
Casting 'Sanctify' (Life 1) on a Graveyard removes it (iirc, feel free to correct me)
Casting 'Resurrection' (Life 3) on a Graveyard produces a Champion.
Quite simply, you're best off exploring them. Getting 3 Skeletons instead of 1 can be handy in a pinch (more wall fodder) but it's not that powerful. Getting a Champion can also be handy, but if you have a unit with Life 3 then one more Champion probably won't make a difference. And none of them are as cool as a free tech. Take advantage of the fact that a unit can move after looting a graveyard, so if it spawns nasties you can run away.
Emptiness
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In addition, you receive a permanent Host of the Einherjar. If you start with Life mana and get an Adept early then a str 5 unit that isn't vulnerable to Shock promotions can be very nice. It can be difficult to protect a Graveyard for that long (AI units and even barbarians will loot them), however, and also the Host of the Einherjar is quickly overshadowed by other units (does not attack cities as well as a Swordsman, does not defend cities as well as an Archer, cannot be upgraded). I agree that a chance for a tech is almost always better than the alternatives.
Another weapon against barbarians is scouting.
Barbarians only appear in places you cannot see. So build lots of warriors as Emptiness said, and send some of them out. Man those towers, and station your warriors in strategic points to cover your settler and workers.
If you find a nearby ruins/whatever that can generate barbarian units that might threaten your cities/expansion, station a warrior nearby so you get early warning that another lizardman is coming your way. If you find it empty (or managed to take it but not strong enough to explore/destroy it), station a unit on it. If it's blocked it cannot make new barbarians.
Another use with lots of scouting warriors is that your settler can move 2-tiles/turn under their cover. Before your next settler is built, send at least two warriors out to scout and monitor the settler's route to destination. This way you can settle it earlier, and those scouts can become defender of the new city.
Barbarians only appear in places you cannot see. So build lots of warriors as Emptiness said, and send some of them out. Man those towers, and station your warriors in strategic points to cover your settler and workers.
If you find a nearby ruins/whatever that can generate barbarian units that might threaten your cities/expansion, station a warrior nearby so you get early warning that another lizardman is coming your way. If you find it empty (or managed to take it but not strong enough to explore/destroy it), station a unit on it. If it's blocked it cannot make new barbarians.
Another use with lots of scouting warriors is that your settler can move 2-tiles/turn under their cover. Before your next settler is built, send at least two warriors out to scout and monitor the settler's route to destination. This way you can settle it earlier, and those scouts can become defender of the new city.
A little rule of thumb that I follow in the early game.
Goblins get attacked by Warriors on flat land, ~70% of victory and precious experience.
Barb Warriors and Skeletons get attacked on flat land by your Warriors if they have Combat 1 (should ALWAYS be your first promo for melee units), ~70% chance for victory and even more experience.
Once your warriors get their 2nd promotion they get Shock. Now they can attack any Barb warriors on any terrain with a reasonable chance of victory.
And any unpromoted warrior fortified in a city has a very good chance of beating any unpromoted attacking units.
But always ALWAYS check what you are fighting. Hover the cursor over them and check their promotions in the bottom left hand corner. In FFH bascially all promotion effects are doubled, and barbs and ai usually always go for the Combat promotions, each one giving an extra +20% strength.
Also download and have a read through Xeinwolfs excellent manual found here. She's a wee bit dated these days, but is an absolute trove of all sorts of great information. Also have a crack at his Grigori tutorial, its an great introduction to the game.
If you still can't hack the onslaught, beeline a tech that gives you new units. Remember, you do not need Copper to build axemen/swordsmen, it just makes them stronger. If your really stretched, beeline Archery. Archers are the best early defenders and only need an Archery Range to be built. A fortified archer in a city will most likely never ever lose to any barbarians (as long as your not playing any modmods). They can even defend against Ogres with a reasonable chance of victory.
But you will always need more units than in BTS. I usually do not defend my cities anywhere near as well as I should, but each city has at least 2 units defending and no settler goes anywhere with at least 2 bodyguards. If one dies, RUN AWAY and come back with even more units.
If you want to learn how to handle hoards of units have a go at the Age of Ice scenario that comes with BTS. Its not quite the same as FFH nowadays, but its very good practice. Or you can play as the Clan of Embers or (Richard) Charadon of the Doviello, both of which means you start at PEACE with the barbarians (but not animals, or hillgiants, or anything with HN). Even so, no barbs will attack your cities as long as you are the underdog (not winning the game by 150% or more).
And FFH is much much harder than base BTS. Generally, first time FFHers are recommeded to drop the difficulty 2 place from what they played BTS on. E.g. if you play BTS at Noble, you wanna start FFH on Chieftain.
If you let us know what Faction you are playing (or really like style wise, thats the best way to play.) we can give you some more specific tips on how to play them. Or you can check the Strategy & Tips subforum, theres heaps of advice in there. I heartily recommend the Top Ten Tips for your favorite civ thread. Heaps of interesting info in there, even for veterans of the game.
Most of all, have fun. If your not enjoying yourself, try something else. Try another game, change the game speed, map settings or any of the custom options. Basically no frequent participant of FFH plays any game without a whole host of preferred custom settings.
Goblins get attacked by Warriors on flat land, ~70% of victory and precious experience.
Barb Warriors and Skeletons get attacked on flat land by your Warriors if they have Combat 1 (should ALWAYS be your first promo for melee units), ~70% chance for victory and even more experience.
Once your warriors get their 2nd promotion they get Shock. Now they can attack any Barb warriors on any terrain with a reasonable chance of victory.
And any unpromoted warrior fortified in a city has a very good chance of beating any unpromoted attacking units.
But always ALWAYS check what you are fighting. Hover the cursor over them and check their promotions in the bottom left hand corner. In FFH bascially all promotion effects are doubled, and barbs and ai usually always go for the Combat promotions, each one giving an extra +20% strength.
Also download and have a read through Xeinwolfs excellent manual found here. She's a wee bit dated these days, but is an absolute trove of all sorts of great information. Also have a crack at his Grigori tutorial, its an great introduction to the game.
If you still can't hack the onslaught, beeline a tech that gives you new units. Remember, you do not need Copper to build axemen/swordsmen, it just makes them stronger. If your really stretched, beeline Archery. Archers are the best early defenders and only need an Archery Range to be built. A fortified archer in a city will most likely never ever lose to any barbarians (as long as your not playing any modmods). They can even defend against Ogres with a reasonable chance of victory.
But you will always need more units than in BTS. I usually do not defend my cities anywhere near as well as I should, but each city has at least 2 units defending and no settler goes anywhere with at least 2 bodyguards. If one dies, RUN AWAY and come back with even more units.
If you want to learn how to handle hoards of units have a go at the Age of Ice scenario that comes with BTS. Its not quite the same as FFH nowadays, but its very good practice. Or you can play as the Clan of Embers or (Richard) Charadon of the Doviello, both of which means you start at PEACE with the barbarians (but not animals, or hillgiants, or anything with HN). Even so, no barbs will attack your cities as long as you are the underdog (not winning the game by 150% or more).
And FFH is much much harder than base BTS. Generally, first time FFHers are recommeded to drop the difficulty 2 place from what they played BTS on. E.g. if you play BTS at Noble, you wanna start FFH on Chieftain.
If you let us know what Faction you are playing (or really like style wise, thats the best way to play.) we can give you some more specific tips on how to play them. Or you can check the Strategy & Tips subforum, theres heaps of advice in there. I heartily recommend the Top Ten Tips for your favorite civ thread. Heaps of interesting info in there, even for veterans of the game.
Most of all, have fun. If your not enjoying yourself, try something else. Try another game, change the game speed, map settings or any of the custom options. Basically no frequent participant of FFH plays any game without a whole host of preferred custom settings.
Vladesch
Warlord
I find that unless I'm playing a financial race (and a good one) my economy pretty much gets destroyed by paying for the necessary upkeep just to repel that wave after wave of barbarian onslaught. (I need 4 or 5 warriors in my outside cities to be confident)
Also Im pretty much building warriors 75% of the time, so my infrastructire lags way behind.
And if thats not enough the 20 turn freeze plus the crushing hordes of frostlings just make it a certainty im right behind the 8 ball.
Of course, being behind and losing so much of my military to the barbarians, its inevitable that one of the AI's declares on me, at which point I may as well quit since theres no way Im fighting off 4 catapaults and 10 melee units which just appear the same turn next to one of my cities.
And this is on monarch.
Of course it doesnt help that I find copper about 1 game in 5, and I always have multiple lizardman hives around me.
Id like to play some other races, but anytime I try something different apart from the usual (ie lanun, calabim) I get crushed.
I thought svartalfar were a strong race, but even with them im playing losing catch up the entire game.
Not sure if its this latest patch, or just bad luck, but it just seems impossible now.
/rant off
(Next game im going to try and beeline to archery with scartalfar. Not sure Ill get that far though. Last game I eventually lost cities to barbs and got decced while researching bronze working)
Also Im pretty much building warriors 75% of the time, so my infrastructire lags way behind.
And if thats not enough the 20 turn freeze plus the crushing hordes of frostlings just make it a certainty im right behind the 8 ball.
Of course, being behind and losing so much of my military to the barbarians, its inevitable that one of the AI's declares on me, at which point I may as well quit since theres no way Im fighting off 4 catapaults and 10 melee units which just appear the same turn next to one of my cities.
And this is on monarch.
Of course it doesnt help that I find copper about 1 game in 5, and I always have multiple lizardman hives around me.
Id like to play some other races, but anytime I try something different apart from the usual (ie lanun, calabim) I get crushed.
I thought svartalfar were a strong race, but even with them im playing losing catch up the entire game.
Not sure if its this latest patch, or just bad luck, but it just seems impossible now.
/rant off
(Next game im going to try and beeline to archery with scartalfar. Not sure Ill get that far though. Last game I eventually lost cities to barbs and got decced while researching bronze working)
Emptiness
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I suggest that as the Svartalfar you consider researching Ancient Chants->Education->Mysticism->Exploration->Hunting->Way of the Forests. Early Cottages are key to keeping up with the AI economically (both in ability to support a large army and in research pace). Hunters and Fawns both take advantage of the Svartarfar's +1 attack strength for recon units. (Svartalfar Archers aren't particularly special, so there's not a lot of point to getting them early.) Converting to FoL will start the process of converting your Forests to Ancient Forests, which is good for your city growth and economy. And finally, if you are able to found FoL then when you build the shrine you'll have some extra 
income and a second source of Nature Mana (all your Arcane units will start with Nature I for free, which is handy when you have forests everywhere).
income and a second source of Nature Mana (all your Arcane units will start with Nature I for free, which is handy when you have forests everywhere).
Vladesch
Warlord
I suggest that as the Svartalfar you consider researching Ancient Chants->Education->Mysticism->Exploration->Hunting->Way of the Forests. Early Cottages are key to keeping up with the AI economically (both in ability to support a large army and in research pace). Hunters and Fawns both take advantage of the Svartarfar's +1 attack strength for recon units. (Svartalfar Archers aren't particularly special, so there's not a lot of point to getting them early.) Converting to FoL will start the process of converting your Forests to Ancient Forests, which is good for your city growth and economy. And finally, if you are able to found FoL then when you build the shrine you'll have some extra
Ive been doing ancient charts,education,calendar(this time, I had some nice calendar resources nearby),map making(for a double switch to city states,agrarianism).
Then I think it was Hunting and then archery, but I didnt get as far as finishing archery.
I guess ill try your sequence next game. Could be interesting, though I doubt it would have turned this last game.
Again, I was hit by wave after wave of barbarians, most of which were lizardmen. There was no pillaging, but I was behind on developing the land because I was under constant siege and kept having to retreat my workers into my cities.
Again, my economy crashed because I needed loads of strength 3 warriors to survive. I was flat out building warriors in almost all of my cities, which was ok I suppose because there wasnt much else to build. I was making my settlers in one city with a double food resource.
So I finally got my first happy resource after I researched hunting, which is very late. My calendar resources were banana and something else which required philosophy, so I got the extra gold/research, but not the extra happiness. I could have skipped calendar, but I got 2 cash resources which probably paid for itself.
I was well behind at this stage, but I may have staged a comeback over time, but of course then I got declared on, noticing that he had a stack of warriors, all strength 4, move 2 and 3 or more promotions each. Nothing I can do. Just totally steamrolled again by the barbarians and the AI.
http://www.users.on.net/~vladesch/civ/Hopeless3.CivBeyondSwordSave
output, generally) that builds a Hunter's Lodge and produces Hunters. An unpromoted Svartalfar Hunter has an 80.6% chance of victory against an unpromoted barbarian Warrior in a Forest; with 2 experience from Apprenticeship used to purchase Woodsman I, the odds of victory increase to 97.3%. The initial production cost of building the Hunting Lodge and producing the first Hunter is steep, but your Hunters will quickly pay for themselves. This is one of the reasons I favor God King over City States; the +50% 
from the Banana doesn't hurt either. However, since you took this detour, you should probably have also researched Festivals. Festivals is a very inexpensive tech with big benefits. The Market is arguably the most important building in the game. The 
penalty is outweighed by the 
, which would be particularly helpful to you because of the few +
points), and so conclude that you experienced the "harpy" event, in which you are given the option to receive a free Great Bard in return for suffering unhappiness in one city for a number of turns. Assuming I am correct, this is likely the single greatest reason for your current situation (ie being so far behind the other civs). The economic and developmental damage done by taking the free Great Bard from this event early in the game can be crippling. Unless the event triggers in a city that is effectively worthless anyway (ie like Brakkah as it is now), or in a city with a great deal of excess I never knew any of that, thanks! I agree that it's rare I'll want to do any of that, but it is a nice touch of flavor they've added to the game.
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