Battle of the Denmark Strait.

[Harvin87]

Hello everyone...

I dont know what you guys think about this, but for me this should be one of the greatest battles in naval history... the clash of maybe the most powerful warships of history... the KMS Bismarck and ofcourse The Mighty HMS Hood, let us not forget the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen and the "new" battleship HMS Prince of Wales. I just cant stop reading about this battle, it just cautivates my mind; I want to share an EXCELLENT documentary from History channel about the subject, in my opinion its one of the best documentary's I've ever seen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BNGZSK3Oco&feature=channel_page

What are your thoughts about the battle?

 

[Dragonlord]

Thanks for that interesting link - I'm going to view it in full later, when I get home.

As for the battle: I agree it's fascinating stuff! A tragedy of errors which shows how much human error and pure dumb blind luck can play a part in war. Just read about it again a couple of days ago, so I remember some details..

The captain of the Hood knew his ship was vulnerable to plunging fire because of the thin deck armor. He at first closed at high speed to get into closer range, where the German shells would come in at a lower angle, then inexplicably turned broadside to answer the Bismarck's fire while still too far away - and was hit and sunk within moments. Why the heck didn't he keep on coming closer first???

The Bismarck was unlucky in that the only hit that did any damage in this battle destroyed a fuel tank and contaminated another, so she had to return to port though otherwise fully functional. Then lucky that the shadowing British cruisers lost her. Lucky again that the British radar was too weak to find her. Then it was the Bimarck's captain's turn to make a stupid mistake: thinking himself located by radar anyway, he made a long report by radio to his HQ, enabling the British to locate the Bismarck again.

Then the final irony: out of range of anyone capable of stopping her, practically home free, she is attacked by obsolete Fairey torpedo bombers - biplanes, fer chrissake! - who are - irony, irony - too slow for her advanced fire control to hit effectively. They are mostly shot down anyway, doing her no damage until.... the very last torpedo dropped, as if drawn by a cruel fate, hits her right in the only really vulnerable place, damaging her rudder, so she is slowed enough for the overwhelming British forces to catch her.

It's like reading a thriller - absolutely fascinating stuff!

 

[Masada]

God hates Denmark. That is all. He also has a high regard for obsolete torpedo bombers and a low regard for capital ships on the receiving end.

 

[Loki130]

God hates Denmark. That is all. He also has a high regard for obsolete torpedo bombers and a low regard for capital ships

the denmark strait is between greenland and iceland (not that that isnt true...)

anyway, also fascinated by this battle. The Bismark, perhaps one of the greatest of the european battleships, (don't jump on me if i'm wrong about that) but destroyed on its maiden voyage by bad luck

 

[Harvin87]

Thanks for that interesting link - I'm going to view it in full later, when I get home.

As for the battle: I agree it's fascinating stuff! A tragedy of errors which shows how much human error and pure dumb blind luck can play a part in war. Just read about it again a couple of days ago, so I remember some details..

The captain of the Hood knew his ship was vulnerable to plunging fire because of the thin deck armor. He at first closed at high speed to get into closer range, where the German shells would come in at a lower angle, then inexplicably turned broadside to answer the Bismarck's fire while still too far away - and was hit and sunk within moments. Why the heck didn't he keep on coming closer first???

The Bismarck was unlucky in that the only hit that did any damage in this battle destroyed a fuel tank and contaminated another, so she had to return to port though otherwise fully functional. Then lucky that the shadowing British cruisers lost her. Lucky again that the British radar was too weak to find her. Then it was the Bimarck's captain's turn to make a stupid mistake: thinking himself located by radar anyway, he made a long report by radio to his HQ, enabling the British to locate the Bismarck again.

Then the final irony: out of range of anyone capable of stopping her, practically home free, she is attacked by obsolete Fairey torpedo bombers - biplanes, fer chrissake! - who are - irony, irony - too slow for her advanced fire control to hit effectively. They are mostly shot down anyway, doing her no damage until.... the very last torpedo dropped, as if drawn by a cruel fate, hits her right in the only really vulnerable place, damaging her rudder, so she is slowed enough for the overwhelming British forces to catch her.

It's like reading a thriller - absolutely fascinating stuff!

Yes... exactly! reading the story its almost like reading a novel, a thriller... dont forget the documentary... its full of epic music and great footage.

I think that admiral Holland (hood captain), was forced to make that turn... because as coming at full speed closer and closer it was anyway vulnerable for plunging fire and because of the inclination of the british ships he needed to turn in order to allow all his guns into action. The thing was that, as the british spoted the german vessels they inmediatly opened fire and pushed forward at full speed... (something like 30 knots ... 35mp/h , 56km/h) thats really fast! hehe especially for two 50 thousand tons ships .

The problem for the british was that, the night before they lost contact with the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, so the battlesquadron of admiral Holland was forced to wait for hours until they regained contact again... thats why when they meet the germans they had lost the advantage, primarly because of the vulnerability of their approximation.

 

[Dragonlord]

I think that admiral Holland (hood captain), was forced to make that turn... because as coming at full speed closer and closer it was anyway vulnerable for plunging fire and because of the inclination of the british ships he needed to turn in order to allow all his guns into action. The thing was that, as the british spoted the german vessels they inmediatly opened fire and pushed forward at full speed... (something like 30 knots ... 35mp/h , 56km/h) thats really fast! hehe especially for two 50 thousand tons ships .

That's just it - as long as both ships were pushing forward at full speed, bow on, the Hood was both a much smaller target and harder to hit because of their combined speeds - especially with plunging fire. When she turned broadside, however, she made both a larger target and greatly reduced the relative speeds, making her easier to hit on both counts. Which promptly happened... and with plunging fire, which, as Holland knew very well, the Hood couldn't withstand.
Remember that the Hood wasn't built as a battleship but a battlecruiser. She was never meant to fight a slugging match with such as the Bismarck, though she had good enough side armor she could have given a good account of herself in a low-trajectory duell.

Hindsight is always 20:20, they say, but I still don't understand why Holland didn't wait longer for his broadside turn. Definitely a mistake, as was proved in short order...

 

[Harvin87]

That's just it - as long as both ships were pushing forward at full speed, bow on, the Hood was both a much smaller target and harder to hit because of their combined speeds - especially with plunging fire. When she turned broadside, however, she made both a larger target and greatly reduced the relative speeds, making her easier to hit on both counts. Which promptly happened... and with plunging fire, which, as Holland knew very well, the Hood couldn't withstand.
Remember that the Hood wasn't built as a battleship but a battlecruiser. She was never meant to fight a slugging match with such as the Bismarck, though she had good enough side armor she could have given a good account of herself in a low-trajectory duell.

Hindsight is always 20:20, they say, but I still don't understand why Holland didn't wait longer for his broadside turn. Definitely a mistake, as was proved in short order...

Yea... probably he was anxious, but you are right... it was still too far away... other account is that the "new" battleship Prince of Wales was not yet fit for battle... and even less for a battle with the Bismarck... her guns jammed during the engagment.

And ofcourse we have to have in accountance the excellent performance of the german artillery... It was not all on Hollands back...

 

[say1988]

One of the most entertaining battles ever. And even when the British brought overwhelming force to bear, they still couldn't inflict a killer blow.

 

[Dragonlord]

One of the most entertaining battles ever. And even when the British brought overwhelming force to bear, they still couldn't inflict a killer blow.

Yeah, at the last the Bismarck had to scuttle herself ...

 

[privatehudson]

I have a special interest in the Bismarck since three of the ships involved in fighting her (Ark Royal, Prince of Wales and Rodney) were built at Cammell Lairds shipyards in Birkenhead, about 1/2 a mile from where I grew up.

However I don't think its relevant whether the Bismarck's crew scuttled her, especially since she was to all intents and purposes dead in the water with all her heavy guns knocked out. The important point for the Royal Navy and Britain was that she went to the bottom of the Atlantic before she could do any more damage, not how she went there.

 

[Cutlass]

It's interesting that even pounded to wreckage, gunfire could not sink the ship. I don't recall that any battleship built after 1920 or so was ever sunk by gunfire. Torpedoes and aerial bombs sunk the ones that went down. Yet most of the "new" battleship types were never really tested to that extent. Still, despite the rather "light" gun armament of Bismark, it was a remarkable ship design. Big, fast, and tough.

 

[say1988]

However I don't think its relevant whether the Bismarck's crew scuttled her, especially since she was to all intents and purposes dead in the water with all her heavy guns knocked out. The important point for the Royal Navy and Britain was that she went to the bottom of the Atlantic before she could do any more damage, not how she went there.

I 100% agree, it is just an interesting footnote to the story. After all the shells and torpedoes threw at the ship and with her entire upper works destroyed, it was still afloat and engines still running. There are some similar examples of attempts to sink major warships.

 

[Harvin87]

It's interesting that even pounded to wreckage, gunfire could not sink the ship. I don't recall that any battleship built after 1920 or so was ever sunk by gunfire. Torpedoes and aerial bombs sunk the ones that went down. Yet most of the "new" battleship types were never really tested to that extent. Still, despite the rather "light" gun armament of Bismark, it was a remarkable ship design. Big, fast, and tough.

You forget the Hood... .

I think the german battleship Scharnhorst maybe was sunk by salvos from HMS Duke of York...

 

[Cutlass]

The Hood was not a "modern", by WWII standards, warship. It was launched in 1918. And it wasn't a battleship at all. And the Scharnhorst wasn't really a battleship either. By the end of WWII the US was building cruisers more heavily armed. There were some battleships sunk, but they were WWI designs, and those designs apparently had much less capable armor.

 

[BananaLee]

hits her right in the only really vulnerable place, damaging her rudder, so she is slowed enough for the overwhelming British forces to catch her.

It's like reading a thriller - absolutely fascinating stuff!

It certainly is extremely fascinating stuff. The story of the Hood and Bismarck is an awesome one by any standard.

Minor correction though, the knocking of the rudder meant the Bismarck could only sail in a very lazy circle so she wasn't "slowed down" per se. Rather, she became a sitting duck.

Nonetheless, t'was an awesome summary, dragonload.

 

[Dragonlord]

It certainly is extremely fascinating stuff. The story of the Hood and Bismarck is an awesome one by any standard.

Minor correction though, the knocking of the rudder meant the Bismarck could only sail in a very lazy circle so she wasn't "slowed down" per se. Rather, she became a sitting duck.

Nonetheless, t'was an awesome summary, dragonload.

Thank you!

As to the rudder, I had myself thought she could only steam in a circle, but when I reread about it on Wikipedia (not the best source, I know) it said that she could be steered by her engines, overcoming the rudder drag, but only at a slow speed - so she was still making headway toward Brest, just too slowly.

I think the 'steaming in a circle' bit came later, after she was cornered by her pursuers and hit a second time in the steering - among many other hits.

Not sure, though, and too lazy too look it up right now... anyone know for sure?

 

[Harvin87]

I read that, one torpedo hit her stearing... but yes .. I agree with you... that came later... after she was cornered... Lütjens made a nice manoeuvre to let Prinz Eugen who was intact .. escape to France.

The unimportant messages that Lütjens sent to Berlin were Bismarcks doom...

 

[privatehudson]

I think the german battleship Scharnhorst maybe was sunk by salvos from HMS Duke of York...

Not exactly, it was knocked about a lot by DOY until its main guns fell silent but finished off by salvos of torpedos from a cruiser and four destroyers.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Thank you!

As to the rudder, I had myself thought she could only steam in a circle, but when I reread about it on Wikipedia (not the best source, I know) it said that she could be steered by her engines, overcoming the rudder drag, but only at a slow speed - so she was still making headway toward Brest, just too slowly.

I think the 'steaming in a circle' bit came later, after she was cornered by her pursuers and hit a second time in the steering - among many other hits.

Not sure, though, and too lazy too look it up right now... anyone know for sure?

As I understand it, The Prince Of Wales fired a salvo before leaving the fight and had a hit which penetrated Bismarcks armor around sea level. The damage destroyed a boiler room, which meant that Bismarck could not travel at top speed.

The torpedo hit destroyed the rudder and one of the propellers, which caused The Bismarck to go in circles.

 

[Dragonlord]

As I understand it, The Prince Of Wales fired a salvo before leaving the fight and had a hit which penetrated Bismarcks armor around sea level. The damage destroyed a boiler room, which meant that Bismarck could not travel at top speed.

The torpedo hit destroyed the rudder and one of the propellers, which caused The Bismarck to go in circles.

Hmm... Prince of Wales did indeed score a hit, but I think it was to a fuel storage bunker, which was destroyed, and at least one other bunker was contaminated by sea water. The resultant fuel shortage was the reason Bismarck had to break off her mission and return to France in the first place, but I don't think it reduced her speed, unless it was to conserve fuel.