Being invisible sucks part II

Neomega

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Feb 9, 2002
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Casting into the mist is a bad idea. You can't switch off the invisibility, so if you are in the field, the only way to ditch the invisibility is to attack. This means basically, if you want any cover for your wounded, you have to make everybody attack, and then pray that the counter attack doesn't go and slaughter all your wounded.

If you have hard, fully healthy units you want to hold a position with, better make them attack, because when they are invisible, they are useless. You have nowhere to retreat to if your unit is wounded, and you are beyond your borders.

Invisibility has to be switchable.
 
On that world spell, trouble is it takes a lot of set-up to be really useful. I had the perfect opportunity to use it recently, but missed it and ended up losing all my heavies in one horrible turn. No, I don't hit the load button....
Anyways, being invisible is great for making surprise attacks and scouting things out, but it leaves any victorious unit open for an easy kill afterwards. Invisibility would be much more useful after an attack, allowing entire stacks to strike and disappear. Heh...I suppose you could amass your army, attack, and then cast the world spell, but that seems rather lame as a once off ability.
Honestly, most of the world spells are kind of "meh" to me.
 
Heh...I suppose you could amass your army, attack, and then cast the world spell, but that seems rather lame as a once off ability.

That's what I did, and it sucked. Now all my ships are invisible, so only the broken ones are visible (i found a workaround, if you change their crew, it technically is casting a spell, so the invisibility is turned off)

And my army was invisble deep in enemy territory. But then... well, they built a city under my feet, and only my wounded became visible. As you can see, it makes this spell a curse more than blessing.

It really needs an option to be turned off if desired. Not toggled, just off.
 
Fourthed: it makes sense that Hidden units should have the ability to unhide, the same way that hidden nationality units can declare nationality.
Practical, more fun (well, less un-fun...) and flavorful. Who's to argue against that?

One point where this could be more complicated is the Nox Noctis. I never used it myself: does it use the Hidden promotion? It could make sense to let your units unhide in your territory, and maybe allow them to hide again while there too, but this could interact badly with those units which already have the ability to hide...
 
I also agree. The ability to turn all your units invisible seems to create more proplems than it's worth. It would be better if it gave all your units a one time chance to turn invisible to use when you see fit. That way, you could use it to explore, sneak attack, or escape whenever you want without losing your ability to defend.
 
I'm pretty sure you don't have to attack to get rid of hidden, you could just cast a spell with the unit.


I tend to think Into the Mists sucks because hidden doesn't last very long. I always change it to give all current units Stealth instead if Hidden (as Stealth lets the unit become hidden whenever you want it to.)
 
There seems to be an aversion to indirect abilities in this forum in general. I don't know - being able to sneak a suicide stack in and raze a couple of important cities is pretty cool. It's almost like Council of Esus effect on crack.
 
PotatoOoverodse is going to have an aneurysm when he reads this topic. And a hemorrhoid.

If you ask me the best use of this spell is to build a force of workers early, in advance, then cast it and keep them invisible for the rest of the game.
 
I really think that Hidden and Invisible should let units move through rival territory without needing open borders.
 
What about units that see invisible? Could being spotted in enemy territory be considered an act of war?
 
Invisibility is fine as it is. Deal with it.

:rolleyes:

Try it sometime before talking about it.

There seems to be an aversion to indirect abilities in this forum in general. I don't know - being able to sneak a suicide stack in and raze a couple of important cities is pretty cool. It's almost like Council of Esus effect on crack.

Sneak a suicide stack? In your games you have spare suicide stacks that can take out cities?

Both of you, i dont think have ever actually tried using the spell.

I'm pretty sure you don't have to attack to get rid of hidden, you could just cast a spell with the unit.

Not all units can cast spells.

It would not be that difficult to have a null spell to cast to turn off hidden.

But the way it is now *really* sucks. *Really* bad. VISIBLE units become like gold.

One point where this could be more complicated is the Nox Noctis. I never used it myself: does it use the Hidden promotion? It could make sense to let your units unhide in your territory, and maybe allow them to hide again while there too, but this could interact badly with those units which already have the ability to hide...

Nox Noctis, Into the mist and Shadow units all have different forms of "invisible". Nox Noctis is not that bad, but it does force you to give up choke points.

But into the mist... just try landing an invasion force sometime with into the mist. Or try killing lone straggler units in enemy territory... the type of stuff invisible assassins do. It sucks. Don't attack a one ship near a port with a ship in it, because the enemy ship will come out, slip underneath your invisible fleet, sink your hurt ship, and go back into its city, while your JAWSOME invisible units sit around and pick their nose.

And it is clearly ridiculous that once invisible, you cant turn it off, except by attacking. It doesn't even make sense, it's just something that should be fixed.

I tend to think Into the Mists sucks because hidden doesn't last very long. I always change it to give all current units Stealth instead if Hidden (as Stealth lets the unit become hidden whenever you want it to.)

It wears off? Thank god.
 
Here is a suggestion: why not ask the player whether the unit wants to defend the tile for each enemy that enters it? (ie: if a stack of 5 entered, you could choose to defend against all, some, or none of them)

To make this less onerous on the player if you have a ton of invisible units, have a game option where you can toggle "auto defend against all", "auto defend against none", and "prompt each time"
 
I want to add this technical issue:

In each turn, after I'm done with A unit that has got invisible by casting "Into the Mist", control passover to the other units is not working automatically. I have to click the other unit manually to keep going every turn until they lose the invisibility.

A kind of bug, I think..
 
HN cavalry (either from Captured upgraded Elephants or from Esus-Scouts turned horsemen + masked before upgrading, 2-3 will suffice. :)) + into the mist
=
pure solid win in form of tons of gold + economic meltdown for your neighbors in one handy package (and the Workers + Settlers you already built henceforth are safe from a multitude of threats they might have to deal with otherwise) at least in singleplayer or coop-multiplayer (if just Hawks weren't so utterly broken...). :)
Just avoid those pesky Empyrean light-heads (edit: pun of course intended in a multitude of ways. ;) :D) near you...


If done lategame you usually should at least have some possibility to get rid of it (by using various Items like healing salves to pass from one unit to another, which counts as using a spell and thus un-hides them as far as i am informed.
Spellcasters get out there cheap as well at the click of a button...) but its better if you can set up the first mentioned feat early to midgame (if into the mist has any real issue imo, it is the lesser usability in lategame as compared to most other Worldspells which grow more powerful with time.).
Also if you have an Empyrean neighbor you can position the units you want revealed there, their priests will take care of the rest...
And you should be able to exactly set up all those methods to your utmost ability since you have full control of when to trigger the worldspell...

Also Sidar are a decent Civ in their own right and don't need an all-powerful worldspell to hand them further power. Its still far from the worst Worldspell vs. AI if used right. (Its not that i would hate them getting the ability to un-hide at a moments notice. I just don't think its really needed, given that there are other ways around it and in early to midgame it shouldn't be a really big issue... Nox Nocturnis is another issue where un-hiding would make an allready powerful if management-intensive feature downright broken.)

And yes, as Sidar you should have tons! of units to "spare" (Level 3+ out of the box on top of that.).
All those "spare-units" are potential shade material, and thus bad to actually not! have around.
By late midgame or later neither Production nor Upkeep (or heaps of Gold for that matter) should be an issue for you, or something runs not so well anyways (at least Horse-Archers and Champions should be built a turn each in speeds down to epic in your production centers.
Possibly even National Units in places with the Heroic Epic and the likes. Throw in a heap of mercenaries from the GoN or some slaves turned Lunatics (even though that ceased to be very interesting with the new enraged, i must confess) and you are set for some sneaky crunching...).

+ you can continue building more nonhidden units after you cast the spell (and those in cities are seen anyways so city-defense is hardly an issue.). Not all that hard to do with Sidar in lategame.

Getting GoN as a cure for your defensive needs might be the most elegant solution though. In terms of convenience and power. Also not the hardest thing to get usually, given that Sidar are rather hard to beat at building mid-game wonders they want to build. For a multitude of reasons... (and in addition to buying a mercenary for defending the countryside the buying unit should lose its hidden status as well since to my knowledge its a "spell" as well and can join the defensive fun.)

Slave trade from Undercouncil might come a close second here given that its cheaper and possibly the easier way to unhide units en-masse with a similarly useful benefit (but CoE+Overcouncil is more interesting for Sidar by quite a margin in my book, so ill stick to the GoN personally...)


One thing has to be said though, again. It totally sucks in competitive multiplayer for sure (at least if your oponents know how to make it useless). And Birds seriously need a nerf + diversification...
 
I'll agree with Blackmantle that hawks need a change... they should be less powerful but also require less micromanagement imho. plus, being unable to select the whole stack they are in is SO annoying. and well, passing an item to another unit should not count as a spell, cuz losing invisibility if you did NOT want to sucks. furthermore it could even be blocked by Arcane Lacuna, which is supposed to just block spells.
 
just give hidden / invisible units an option to remove the invisibility and you're set, right? shouldn't be that tough
 
just give hidden / invisible units an option to remove the invisibility and you're set, right? shouldn't be that tough

Yeah.

I know, invisibility rules in many ways, and I am getting an earful about how Jawesome it is, but it isn't like it would make it OMG TOO POWERFUL if you could switch off unit's invisibility. More like it would make it more "realistic", and just a better experience. I am talking about into the mist, not nox noctis, I have learned to accept Nox Noctis, and understand Nox Noctis would be difficult to implement a switch on/switch off feature.

And speaking of realistic, pillaging should reveal an invisible unit, as should bombarding cities, or any other violent action.
 
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