Best Civs for wide

[Wojciech_R]

Hi,

What CIV would you rate as best (or alternative like 3 best civs) to create wide empire?

First glance: Rome looks good..

 

[beetle]

I have tried, but without much success, to make wide Liberty work as well for me as 4-city Tradition. Rome looks good on paper, but I have not tried them in while.

So far, only Celts and Shoshone have worked well for me. Celts has UA that works well for wide in beginning, and then a +2 happy UB that works well for wide in the mid to end game. The Shoshone UA largely makes up for Liberty not picking up tile as fast as one would like. America UA might be good for that as well, but again I have not tried them in while.

 

[miaasma]

for me, the two biggest limitations for going wide are happiness maintenance and the science penalty per city (provided you're playing BNW). the most effective strategy i've noticed for mitigating the increased unhappiness produced by wider civs is religion; at higher difficulties this can be difficult to achieve, but certain civs may still found one fairly reliably

so given these parameters my favourite wide civ would have to be the maya; their UB can help mitigate the science penalty if it is built quickly and the more cities you have producing faith earlier the more likely you'll be able to found a religion, as well as more faith gain for building faith buildings if you manage to snag those beliefs

i'm sure there are tons of potentially good wide civs; Acken has a guide for liberty wide as well as suggested wide civs in the strategy and tips subforum, so i'd recommend checking that out

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=559009 This is the one, read it.

Korea and the Maya are the best, as Korea gets 2 extra science per specialist, and the only way to get more specialists is to have more cities. The Mayan pyramid also gives off two science, and the best way to maximize that is with more cities. That won't help manage happiness though.

Egypt and Celts have great unique buildings that give off 2-3 extra happiness, and using faith to buy pagodas when you choose it as a follower belief gets another 2 happiness. There are other beliefs that help, but that one is the best.

 

[joncnunn]

I have never succeed in making self founding wide work better than 4 city tradition (and then conquering any additional cities I wanted) for any civ. 4 City Tradition is just that good on the standard size map.

In the case of the above, Korea is actually less suitable than most because Korea also gets a science boost every time they complete a science building (or wonder) in their capital, which gives them even less time for a city built after the 4th to pay for itself.

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

I have never succeed in making self founding wide work better than 4 city tradition (and then conquering any additional cities I wanted) for any civ. 4 City Tradition is just that good on the standard size map.

In the case of the above, Korea is actually less suitable than most because Korea also gets a science boost every time they complete a science building (or wonder) in their capital, which gives them even less time for a city built after the 4th to pay for itself.

Korea is good wide though because you can build a university, public school, research lab, factory, workshop, bank, stock exchange, and possibly even a windmill in 4-5 more cities. Working all those extra specialist slots banks you 20 extra science on top of the extra science you already get from universities, public schools, and research labs. That's what I mean by more specialists, you can max out the capital to have the 6 guild buildings but not the other 10 specialist slots possible per city. You can get windmills too, making it even better.

 

[Redaxe]

Actually wide is almost always stronger than tall - but because most people finish their games between turns 250-300 wide is often still a bit behind where a tall civ would be. If games went for 400 or 500 turns at standard speed than I have no doubt that wide would be stronger.

Generally any civ (except Venice) can play wide. The main constraints are space, happiness (luxuries) and gold. The first 100 turns is usually pretty brutal but it gets better after that.

Rome are a reasonable choice but as its benefits gravitate towards lots of buildings and roads they suffer badly from the lack of early gold tiles that the BNW expansion removed. You'll be able to build faith, science, gold and happiness buildings much faster so new cities will become self supporting more quickly. Legions can help with roads freeing up your workers elsewhere.

China is a good choice as the paper maker gives you +3 gold per city. That essentially covers up the lack of gold from playing Liberty. The military bonuses are very useful too as you'll end up running into someones borders quite quickly. The extra great generals are excellent for planting citadels in strategic locations or grabbing extra resources.

Maya - well easily one of the best. Extra faith for a religion. a slightly cheaper archer unit which makes early military a little easier. The UA is excellent and gives you access to Great People before you would normally be able to get them.

Poland - Always a good choice. Extra social policies make any strategy stronger. You can probably double dip into Liberty and Piety to pick up a reformation belief. The Stable UB also gives some extra gold.

Egypt - Get a great faith UB that cuts out the high upkeep of the temple and provides extra happiness. The UA can help grab some key Wonders to help your strategy or get that National College up quicker.

Greece - I'll add these guys because there UA is focused on citystates you should have extra cities to generate more culture and faith so you can win more citystate quests. It's quite easy getting friendly with CSs so that covers over some of the shortfalls of playing wide. The Hoplite and Companion Cavalry are both beasts and can protect you from any threat.

Songhai - The Mud Mosque removes the horrid temple upkeep and provides some extra culture. Extra early gold from barb camps.

Byzantium - Well their strategy is based entirely upon religion so you should try and play wide with them if you don't think a tall game where you focus on getting the Theology Wonders is viable.

It's best to expand along coastal cities as Dromons are essentially a stronger composite bowman on the ocean - and they are the only civ that gets access to a ranged naval unit before the galleas. By the time you get to frigates you should have range 3 promotion so a naval conquest is very viable.
Dromons can shoot inland from coastal cities essentially giving Byzantium very powerful early city defenses and coastal supremacy. Additionally their land attack promotions are +33% each (instead of the +15% for land units) so that benefit ramps up much higher as they stack promotions.
Inland cities won't get this benefit so you'll have to be a little more careful.

The extra religious belief is entirely dependent upon founding. So you'll need to expand quickly, locate sources of faith (religious CSs, faith mountains etc) and throw some points into Piety along the way.

Russia - Well they get extra production from strategic resources and extra copies of said resources. That gives you more resources to trade for gold and more hammers means faster expansion. Pretty basic but it helps with snowballing I guess.

Celts - They get extra faith from forests and their UU. The Opera House will grant extra happiness but it takes a long time to get to it.

Japan - I'm stretching things a bit here but the military bonus will help with inevitable war that you get from settling lots of cities. That is more helpful that most probably realise as ranged units can be damaged and still attack at full strength without having to heal - again that is a stronger bonus than most will recongise.
The UA now adds some extra culture to atolls and fishing boats so that helps a little.

 

[Sclb]

You need a good religion for wide in my opinion. Without it, you're just way behind on happiness/culture and certainly slower than a tall game 200-250 range. As said above, after turn 300, wide has more than enough time to catch up and will be a much stronger game.

 

[miaasma]

You need a good religion for wide in my opinion. Without it, you're just way behind on happiness/culture and certainly slower than a tall game 200-250 range. As said above, after turn 300, wide has more than enough time to catch up and will be a much stronger game.

this is one of three conditions that is generally necessary for me to go wide, the other two being unique luxuries and space. sometimes it's possible when only two of three conditions are met (sub-optimal religion but otherwise decent location for wide play), but it becomes a lot harder. keeping up in military is also a challenge in higher difficulties and generally bribing AI to war each other is required since money will be tighter.

sometimes you have a huge space but very limited unique luxuries, which is pretty sad if wide is your flavour

 

[Sclb]

Limited unique luxuries is less of a problem on deity than on lower difficulties. The AI improves luxury very quickly on deity and will be willing to trade for it. The main problem remaining is space as if you try to forward settle AI, they'll hate you and won't trade for full value unless you send early trade route. Also the threat of getting attacked is real on deity and you'll have to be able to have extras to bribe AI's into war.

 

[Redaxe]

You need a good religion for wide in my opinion. Without it, you're just way behind on happiness/culture and certainly slower than a tall game 200-250 range. As said above, after turn 300, wide has more than enough time to catch up and will be a much stronger game.

To be honest Egypt is the one exception to this rule. If you think about it Egypt actually gives you the equivalent of a free religion in its unique abilities.

Burial Tomb - no gold upkeep so that saves +2 gold per turn. This roughly equals "Church Property"

Burial Tomb - +2 happiness per city. This is actually better than Religious Center as the bonus applies without a religion or the 5 followers

UA +20% to Wonder construction - Basically a super version of Monument to the Gods. What's not to love?

Lets face it, nearly everyone goes for religion to get the minimum of a gold bonus and a happiness bonus. You get that right off the bat here.


Oh and I think the other exception is Greece. Whilst an early religious CS ally will basically you give you a free religion the ease that Greece can hold CS alliances means that if you play smart you can expand heaps and get plenty of bonus culture, faith, food, happiness and military units from CSs. It's a slightly different approach but it works probably better than trying to become self sufficient which most other civs (e.g Rome) have to.

 

[Sclb]

Egypt is excellent, and in addition the high chance of getting DF pantheon for a strong religion anyway.

 

[miaasma]

Limited unique luxuries is less of a problem on deity than on lower difficulties. The AI improves luxury very quickly on deity and will be willing to trade for it. The main problem remaining is space as if you try to forward settle AI, they'll hate you and won't trade for full value unless you send early trade route. Also the threat of getting attacked is real on deity and you'll have to be able to have extras to bribe AI's into war.

i regard the diplomatic issue of settling quickly/encroaching on the AI to be part of the downside of little to no unique luxuries. relying on the AI to maintain your happiness can be dangerous

 

[Redaxe]

i regard the diplomatic issue of settling quickly/encroaching on the AI to be part of the downside of little to no unique luxuries. relying on the AI to maintain your happiness can be dangerous

That's a good point and for this reason I don't like the happiness finisher in Commerce. If you become dependent upon buying luxuries the cost can be brutal. I had one game where I relied on Commerce finisher for happiness and I was importing about 6 luxuries from a large neighbor. That cost about 50 gold per turn and I couldn't declare war on him (was nearly losing the space race) because I would get smacked with a -36 happiness hit.
And if luxuries start being banned in the world council its just as bad. It's an odd predicament because people often say Commerce is the isolationist tree but the happiness finisher certainly isn't - it leaves you very exposed to your neighbors and dependent on them.

 

[BigJude]

No-one's mentioned persia!
I've just won a deity liberty game as persia (my first!) - additional happiness from UB is helpful.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

 

[Primacide]

No-one's mentioned persia!
I've just won a deity liberty game as persia (my first!) - additional happiness from UB is helpful.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

Unfortunately you have to give up persias ua to go wide. You're not getting many golden ages if you sit at plus one happiness most of the game.

I'm surprised not to see the inca on this list. The inca can maintain long roads for free on hills. They can settle locations that other civs avoid. Their unique improvement makes expo cities explode and catch up fast. Finally, their military hill bonus means you can keep what you have. A solid wide civ in my opinion.

 

[Sclb]

It's an odd predicament because people often say Commerce is the isolationist tree but the happiness finisher certainly isn't - it leaves you very exposed to your neighbors and dependent on them.

I would say that finishing full commerce is only really valuable as a wide warmongering empire where you have access to most/all lux via conquest. And at the same time, AI are never going to trade for full value if they even trade at all.

 

[Redaxe]

I would say that finishing full commerce is only really valuable as a wide warmongering empire where you have access to most/all lux via conquest. And at the same time, AI are never going to trade for full value if they even trade at all.

Yeah and in comparison you're better off just investing policies into Autocracy. You get Gold saving policies and better happiness policies. Militarism can give you +6 happiness per city. That's pretty hard to beat and that 1 policy outranks all the Order and Freedom happiness policies.

 

[tide15]

I would go with America, Germany, China

 

[Wojciech_R]

Thank you for all the advice.


"You need a good religion for wide in my opinion. Without it, you're just way behind on happiness/culture and certainly slower than a tall game 200-250 range. As said above, after turn 300, wide has more than enough time to catch up and will be a much stronger game. "

This is why I modded the game to make liberty more usefull:
Republic gives bigger bonus to building construction, Representation got additionally 1 gold per city, Meritocracy causes libraries and unis to give 1 Science, Finisher increases GP generation.

I need few games to test that (15% on GP looks too much).

Honestly why devs made tradition so powerfull is beyond me:/