Bringing back an old idea: Rhye flavour civ spawning

Psychic_Llamas

Psychic_Llamas

Wizard in the Making
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Hey ploe, masada and i were chatting on MSN, and he convinced me that the civ spawning method used in Rhyes and Fall of civ would work brilliantly with WH.

now, i know you mentioned this before, and i shot it down in flames, but ive rethought it and am wondering if your still inclined to this idea?


EDIT: weve been working on ideas for the Kinstrife map, and we have some traits worked out below in Masada's posts. what do you think guys? any corrections?
 
Premable on Civilization Traits:

These traits represent broadly the civilizations leanings, be they military or civil these are hopefully going to be individually tailored for each civilization on a new Warhammer World map which will be organized alongside the lines that Rhye has created his mod, Rhyes of Civilization (we are indebted to his genuis for the ideas he has given towards this new as of yet theoretical project).

Civilizations:

These ammendments are in theory only but will most likely find there way into Kinstrife (which will act as the testing ground for these ideas in warhammer) which Psychic_Llamas is current working on (feedback is welcome)

Dark Elves
Spoiler :


Dark Elves: Children of Cynath-Thalui
1. All units are able to enslave defeated enemies and are amphibious. All Ships can enslave enemy ships, and all ships have +1 cargo.
2. When Dark Elves raze a city Dark Elven cities get a +happiness bonus
3. When Dark Elves pillage they gain an extra 5X gold
4. When Dark Elves are in the Slavery civic they got double the amount of slaves from enslavement


High Elves
Spoiler :


High Elves: Power of Sarathai (Sarathai an Elven term for the Power of the World Dragon, symbolising for the Asur unyielding defiance in the face of threats)
1. High Elves gain +1 food on each water tile and High Elves gain access to a special resource Pearls which only they can connect (although it can be occupied and used)
2. High Elves have -50% maintance
3. High Elven Ships have extra visibility at sea, 2 first strikes and 2 extra movement
4. Militia units can spawn from village improvements if enemies are nearby (10%), as with the Treeman spawning in ancient forests in Fall From Heaven
 
Preamble on Racial Traits:

These traits reprsent broad racial leanings, be they military or cvil these are going to be tailored to each race (although flexibility is the watchword) broadly speaking these apply to races with more than one civilization ie. humans, elves and dwarves (individual races will have civilization, racial and group traits rolled in a super racial trait to assist the player)

Racial Traits

Elves
Spoiler :


Children of Assyuran (Elven racial traits)
1. +1 movement and +1 strength
2. Elven mages gain 2X experience and Elven mages have higher national limits
3. -100% Growth
4. Elven Units have extra upkeek
5. Elven units take +50% shields to build
6. Elven cities benifit from +2 health
 
Preamble on Area/Group Traits:

These traits reprsents areas or groups of civilization that share similar characteristics, examples of these would be undeath, an affinity for summoning or having unsual regional traits that do not fit easily into racial traits ie. Eastern Traditions which will contain composite traits for Ind, Nippon and Cathay to represent the differences between them and the Old World powers (which will most probably not be represented as a group trait only as individual civilization traits and a human racial trait)

Special Note: This is really designed for civilizations that fits with other civilizations and does not share traits similar to any others ie. Khermi and Vampire Counts (which will have civilization traits and a group trait instead of a racial trait) and for areas where canon is not specifiic or patchy or has not been devolped to a deep level.

Area/Cultural Traits:

A probable trait will be Raubwirtschaft (An Imperial term for a a form of economy where the goal is to plunder the wealth and resources of a country or geographical area) which will be a trait applied to cultures which are "barbarians" and pillage but do not neccesarily occupy territory. This will apply broadly to "raider style cultures" Hung, Hobgoblins and Norse and Norsca
 
I think it is a very good idea and it will be "simple" as we already got a warhammer world map. For the civ apparition, fixed time or when a specific tech has been researched ?


For the Asur all seems good
For the Druchii instead of having bonus happyness when razing a city (that would more fitt to chaos) why not bonus happyness when at war with the asur and when owning the altar of Khaine ? Dark elves also should not gain x5 bonus gold from pillage as it is stated that the druchii take nothing material when plundering, only the population. To compensate this perhaps give their slaves the possibility of being sacrified for building acceleration or gold (instead of just building acceleration) and give them a slave for every improvment they plunder.

For the name of the druchii powers don't use imperial language. Stay in the elven runes one: I propose Arhain (night, secret, trahison and shadow), Cynath (Chill, death, silence and solitude) or Thalui (hate and revenge).

Edit: I just got the new High elven army book and now high elves units all strike first (even when being charged) so instead of +1 str maybe +1 first strike ?
 
@ Solwen:
Druchii happiness from razing cities is supposed to symbolise the pure deligth DE get from knowing they are causing pain to someone, anyone. in the DE army book, it describes DE as the onlt Pure Evil race in the WH world, more so than Chaos even, because at elast chaos is evil for a reason: to spread their religion. DE are just evil because they can be :)

replacing the gold from pillaging with extra slaves is good. iagree.

how about a combination: "the Power of Cynath-Thalui" for the Druchii power

i originally wanted +1 first strike rather than strength, but the strength was chosen to show not physical prowess, but tactical genious. perhaps +1 strength and first stike? (over powered?)
 
+1 str and +1 first strike will perhaps balance their heavy malus (ie malus city growth and unit prod).

But as always only play test will tell us i think.
 
yeh. if you find anything else in the new HE book, can you tell us? ive got the old one, but you can only use so much material from that.
What heroes have they put in that one? is Caledor in there at all?
 
basiacally i choose the gold for a simple reason: Naggaroth is poor in terms of food and resoucres... and if you have played Rhyes Viking are a good approximation of Dark Elves in the sense that Scandinavia is poor with regards to resources and commerece

and expidency basically with DE you will be at war with everyone.. (no-one aside from Chaos and High Elves can reach you within reason) you will have realitively large armies spending alot of the time inside enemy borders and fighting.

and as a given slaves for the races that can get them ie Chaos, DE and Lizardmen will have be able to sacrifice them for variously money, production and culture.

And realistically i think the DE steal everything that isnt bolted down and more... the black arcs would need to steal food, water and supplies to stay in the field for as long as they do (probably 6 months+) and there is a limit to which you can keep "good" food because i dont see DE eating hard tack and rancid meat.

As a note... i honestly dont think DE do any real work... ie mining, fishing, farming etc they might oversea slaves doing it but they would not ever get there hands dirty

They are not a functioning economy... if the supply of slaves were to dry up the DE would collapse.. DE are a minority inside there own country and it would not surprise me to find that they are outnumbered by slaves at least 10-1 or above.

There is absolutely no farming land in naggaroth worth anything (look at a map the whole thing is forest or mountains with only a tiny area around Arnheim looking cleared (and ominously its below the "Doom Glades") they dont produce anything except finished products (ie weapons and armour) and what there slaves produce (ie ore and war materials) so they would probably steal alot of food or extort it from others...

In warhammer map terms i think the forests on much of Naggaroth should be unworkable (because other than Lustria it is the most dangeorus place (outside the wastes) to live in...) and basically because Dark Elves ignore most of Naggaroth aside from the cities, lumber mills (which are few), mines (which are dangerous) and watch towers (which are constantly under attack) otherwise the rest of the continent is completely ignored.

As a note:

Children of Cynath-Thalui is good
+1 Str and +1 First Strike isnt to bad.. while Elves might not be strong.. there superior equipment makes up for it... and they are quick... (i have a suspicion that +1 str and +1 first strike will not make up for the -50% unit build speed but we can tweak that) and as a note we struck down +1 First Strike because from memory it is no where in game terms as good as +1 Str for most units.
Pillage should stay because Naggaroth is a hunk of crap for a place to live... its large... and it will not support many cities... so you will be running -negatives for alot of the game and it might help the AI decide it wants to attack people
The razing cities is also important (i would be tempted to limit DE to raising cities only... and not taking them whatsoever but i noticed that they have in the past occupied cities in Tilea (Sargossa) and somewhere in Brettonia) but there will be conditions to this... DE are not occcupiers or empire builders they are sadists...
 
I checked up on the thig saying that DE dont pillage, and they dont, not in the old book anyway. they only take the slaves. i like Solwens idea of enabling slaves to be sacrificed for gold. perhaps a new building that enables the sacrificing of slaves for gold, and another for culture and another of research.

maybe we could do a hybrid of americas power from rhye, and say whenever an improvement is pillaged, or a city is pillaged slaves are produced and the nearest DE city gets a boost to food (to show slaves migrating to occupy the city population.)

and how difficult is it to add new specialists? we could add a specialist called 'Slave Driver' which can only be produced by sacrificing slaves. the slave driver specialists provide +1 gold and +1 hammer.
 
Honestly i dont think we need to bother... institutining Slavery gained stuff can be done much much easier...

And not to sound insulting according to the old book... but how the hell if Naggoroth is a wasteland do they feed all there slaves (when they feed them) and how the heck do Dark Elves feed themselves (because i remeber reading that they enjoy "good" food as much as the High Elves do...) because in any scenario Naggaroth is going to be an absolute wasteland with big forests... fens marshes etc... unable to be worked on with plenty of nasty things all over... its just as unpleasant as Lustria (and the Dark Elves are not Lizardmen they are not suited to Naggaroth... probably why they do not move to far from the coast)

As a show of how barren Naggaroth is... there are 7 cities in an area the size of the Old World+The Dark Lands.... and the Empire alone at least 20 cities i can see and Brettonia has at least 10 and even Estalia has 3 (and Estalia is an absolute backwater) and according to my Dark Elf book there are only roads between Ghrond and the watchtowers... otherwise there are no roads whatsoever...

Pillaging can represent the taxes that the Witch King would impose on the sale of slaves etc i would imagine he would only claim strong slaves as his own ie. ex-soldiers

And i see this money as important... because as i have stated before...Naggaroth is huge... and there are 7 cities on it and no scope whatsoever for any more... the land for any Naggaroth map should be extremely poor and have very very few food resources (iron, mithril and stuff should be available in quite some numbers) asnd even better we should have Naggaroths forests... for the most part impossible to work and traverse over... other the Dark Elves will be rather large... ie the whole of Naggaroth...

And its alot simplier to add into the game... without going overboard with millions of new archaic rules...

Slave taking: I see as being something limited to the Tribes of Chaos, DE, Norsca, Araby, Lizardmen (and Ind?) where you can take slaves... then sacrifice them for culture (in some cases Lizardmen) production (Dark Elves) or gold (Chaos) or maybe you should be given a choice of all three...
 
Just because its cold dosnt mean theres no food :)

DE hunt, they fish, they breed cattle. i dont know why you insist on wanting to cripple all the elves so much. (look at canada, Russia even, look at the population of russia and the shittyness there (and dont give me the "but theyre elves, they cant breed fast" stuff ;)))

EDIT: sorry, that was a bit harsh :p
 
Have you tried my map so far ? And if yes what do you think of the de territories ?

I personally like masada idea of making nagaroth forests less good than normals forest (they are worked for their wood as told in the de army book slave tale). Maybe make these forest spawn monstruosities wether they are in borders or not ?
 
yeh, the dangerous forests is good, but DE still need food :p

perhaps the forests can spawn Hydra, Manticore, cold ones, and a wide assortment of mean beasties that ignore boarders. perhaps DE hunters could hunt them and make cage buildings that boost the growth or EXP of beast units? (but they would be tough as)
 
im not suggesting we cripple them... but what im saying is Naggaroth is poor... and in game terms this is important... ie because if Naggaroth is comparitively rich we are going to have a million and one DE cities all over the continent which will severly unbalance things... namely when they spawn High Elves will be retreating away from the old world (having fought the War of the Beard and being sorely pressed by humans etc) giving DE room to massively expand is not a good thing at all.... at least for balance...

In game terms i think we should give them plenty of metals... ie Iron, Mithril etc but limited food resources to limit the population they can have because if you give them a nice smattering we are going to have a million and one DE cities

(sorry Solwen i couldnt get it to load atm im running out of time going to dinner)

It is critical that we keep the city count down to limit lag... basically we are gifted beyond measure because alot of the Warhammer world is empty there are 7 cities on Naggaroth total no more no less.... simple that limits DE to 7 cities.... Ghrond, Hag Gharef, Har Ganeth, Naggarond, Karond Kar, Clar Karond, Arheim...

Ulthanuan has fewer major cities... 5 total... Anlec, Tor Achare, Tor Yversse, Tor Elyr, Lothern (on mainland Ulthanuan)

and because these two powers will spend most of the game fighting... and there victory condtions will reflect this.... they should be equal in game terms...

We know Ulthanuan is rich in terms of things... and we know Naggaroth is poor as heck.. it only has forests for the most part (and they are evil forests at that)

The difference in game terms is Naggaroth is huge an any AI given half a chance will expand to living hell inside Naggaroth and overrun Ulthanuan (to avoid stupidities like this and the resultant lag and backlag of units we play smart) we block Dark Elves from colonizing that many city sites.. by making the forests un-setterlarble... but the territory around the city locations in Naggaroth fairly rich... but primarily in fish and metals.. (which the DE have in proffusion and bugger all else)

Im not crippling the Elves but note this if we make them to strong them will overrun everything we have a balancing act to keep in mind... the Old World is massively crowded... and most civs will have very few cities (in a typical Rhyes game France has 4, Spain has 4, Rome has 3 (in Italy), Russia has maybe 10 (no more than that until biology... because of marshes in Siberia) and we have to add to that rather scrapped together odd world Wood Elves, some barbs for the border princes and lets not forget Dwarves on the periphery) and lets not forget Sylvania (because i have not an idea in hell how we can have that work)

Cramping on civs is a must to keep things in balance... civs given massive territory bonuses must be offset by barbarians... terrain contrasnts... enemies vying for territory etc otherwise the whole thing will fall apart.

Basically we are going to need to blow up the old world in size quite a bit... and to compensate... we will make the bits of Naggaroth including the silly amount of islands smaller and probably snip territory of the southlands...

Every bit of terrian not going to ever be settled at all ie the East of Naggaroth... bits of the south lands etc will need to be reduced in size to make up for size constraints in other areas...

But i kindly suggest you both plays Rhyes and check out the balance that Rhye has somehow forced into Europe because i find it to be utterly perfect (barring some outliers)

Sorry about the rant at a rush Gentleman

Adieu Adieu i bid you Adieu
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
Hey ploe, masada and i were chatting on MSN, and he convinced me that the civ spawning method used in Rhyes and Fall of civ would work brilliantly with WH.

now, i know you mentioned this before, and i shot it down in flames, but ive rethought it and am wondering if your still inclined to this idea?


EDIT: weve been working on ideas for the Kinstrife map, and we have some traits worked out below in Masada's posts. what do you think guys? any corrections?
Click to expand...

Yes I still want ingamecivspawning. It even can be done differently for different maps. I will start coding this feature once we're done with the Kinstrife. Sorry for being offline so much lately but my new job really kills me. Fortunatly it's only until late december and I will have enough money to support my living for a while without having to work on anything else than Warhammer and FFH:D
 
awsome :D i was hopig it wuld be different for different scenarios :D:D

dont fret about not being online constantly ;) it just shows that your doing something with your life unlike some people i know... *cough*me*cough*
 
A few points:

I think that +1 STR and +1 first strike balances out with +50% unit build time. maybe even isnt enough.

I really like the idea of the forests of Naggaroth spawning cold ones, wyvrens, spiders and other such stuff to be captured by DE beastmasters. This is a nice counterpoint to the increased unit build time and creates the possibility of an interesting early game strategy, overwhelming the HE with captured beasties.

Masada is absolutly right about AI expanding to fill the entire continent. For that reason alone, i think that Naggaroth forests should be un-settle-able.

Llama, i downloaded Kinstrife and although i didnt get very far (CTD when i tried to upgrade a magic unit in naggaroth) i loaded it up again in worldbuilder. the map looks great, but i really thought that it shouldent be a "startup" scenario. so i pulled out my "official illustrated guide to the world of warhammer" and looked up high elven and dark elves cities. i just thought it would be cool to have the empires there with the real names and everything. I gave the DEs 4 cities and the HEs 5 i think, cuz thats what was on the maps, the exception being the HE city of Anlec, since you had a ruins of anlec there. I didnt give them population, or tech, since i thought you might want to do that. If this isnt the direction you want the scenario to go in, thats fine, i just thought it should be out there. check the map out in worldbuilder.

PS the guide said the HEs have 2 colony cities left over from thier world spanning empire, the Citidel of Dusk and the Fortress of Dawn, at the southern tips of "south america" and "africa" respectivly. i know the map doesnt go that far. just FYI.
 

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@Slaanesh

While i agree that your idea might be interesting... i dont know it might be tad finicky... but im not prepared to make arguements... figure out some possible details and well discuss it

(or PH will... :lol: )
 
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