OneLeggedRhino
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@vranasm Please share what you'd do different, part of my goal here is to get new ideas on playing better
[BTS] Immortal Brennus - Reasons Behind the Moves
- Thread starter OneLeggedRhino
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GenerallyGreat
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I think he's commenting more on the differences between the more standard speeds and Marathon. Stuff that probably makes total sense on your setting wouldn't be a good idea on normal.
OneLeggedRhino
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5th Turnset (Years 1500-1000 BC, Turns 200-250)
As planned, I swap to a settler, whip 2 turns later and grab the Commerce city ASAP.
I'd also sent a scout to get rid of the last few squares of fog, to verify the exact spot for the city. He finds Alex already moving close to that spot. Good thing I whipped the settler.
Copper(C) finishes the worker, and I set up a growth to happen same turn as the Monument.
A few turns later, I get a lucky break: Buddhism spreads to Commerce. This will make the border contention with Alex a bit easier.
Commerce continues building the Monument, and I road then Mine the hill. (Direct to mine, instead of chop then mine, because that's the only square worth working at the moment).
Things I could have done better: Brought the workers in earlier, so they're ready to chop the jungle the turn IW came in.
Tech Trading
Turn 214 (1360 BC) Alphabet pops. Both AIs will trade hunting, fishing, and IW. Alex will also trade Masonry (Gilgamesh has it but won't trade, and Alex has Meditation but won't trade). Neither will go to war or stop trading with the other
Alex almost has writing (he won't trade anything for it) so I gift it, and trade Gilgamesh Mysticism for Fishing (thought about trading for hunting, but decided I wanted sailing more than archery. It pays off, and I instantly get trade routes with Gilgamesh for an additional 4C/turn).
Next turn -- the turn I'm going to trade him Alphabet -- Gilgamesh asks me to gift it to him. Bastard! How do I tell him he gets a -1 for being greedy?
Over the next several turns, I trade up to tech parity with them (except for Meditation).
Normally I'd go Currency next, but I want something cheap to trade for Archery and bribe a war, so I go for Poly --> Monotheism.
1320 BC, Copper grows to max pop and runs 2 scientists, and now continuously builds workers. Would it have been better to go straight to monument, get the scientists going, and only then build workers here? Probably.
I've now fully explored Alex's lands:
Another shot of Gilgamesh's land:
And the land in the NW, with my planned dotmap:
The blue dots will work Commerce's cottages, to mature them faster than the city could on its own.
The brown dot is marginal, it gets one grassland and one gold and that's it.
Thoughts on the dotmap? Please share.
Workers swarm Commerce. 2 improve the gems. (Copper works the gems for now, 1 food starvation is no big deal). 2 improve the rice (with a farm this time, since this city is food-poor), and the rest make cottages.
Gilgamesh gets The Great Lighthouse in Rome. Good to know for later.
Monotheism at 1070 BC, and I start Currency. (No one has been willing to go to war or stop trading, so I'm not sure how worthwhile Poly + Monotheism were, but hopefully I can trade it eventually). My capital will make missionaries after finish a settler.
Another settler at 1060 BC, whipped out 2 turns later. He goes just West of Commerce to fully block that off from Alex, arrives on turn 250.
Also during this turnset: My capital produced a few axes, one chariot and a spear. Horse (the production city to the East) grew to size 6 and is almost done with the barracks. Gilgamesh researched Math but won't trade it. Alex didn't research anything since I got alphabet (I think).
Next turnset: Get Commerce online, claim the other blue dot (to the East of Commerce), and keep trying to get Alex and Gilgamesh to fight.
Anyone know the threshold value for military strength where AIs won't declare on me?
As planned, I swap to a settler, whip 2 turns later and grab the Commerce city ASAP.
I'd also sent a scout to get rid of the last few squares of fog, to verify the exact spot for the city. He finds Alex already moving close to that spot. Good thing I whipped the settler.
Copper(C) finishes the worker, and I set up a growth to happen same turn as the Monument.
A few turns later, I get a lucky break: Buddhism spreads to Commerce. This will make the border contention with Alex a bit easier.
Commerce continues building the Monument, and I road then Mine the hill. (Direct to mine, instead of chop then mine, because that's the only square worth working at the moment).
Things I could have done better: Brought the workers in earlier, so they're ready to chop the jungle the turn IW came in.
Tech Trading
Turn 214 (1360 BC) Alphabet pops. Both AIs will trade hunting, fishing, and IW. Alex will also trade Masonry (Gilgamesh has it but won't trade, and Alex has Meditation but won't trade). Neither will go to war or stop trading with the other
Alex almost has writing (he won't trade anything for it) so I gift it, and trade Gilgamesh Mysticism for Fishing (thought about trading for hunting, but decided I wanted sailing more than archery. It pays off, and I instantly get trade routes with Gilgamesh for an additional 4C/turn).
Next turn -- the turn I'm going to trade him Alphabet -- Gilgamesh asks me to gift it to him. Bastard! How do I tell him he gets a -1 for being greedy?
Over the next several turns, I trade up to tech parity with them (except for Meditation).
Normally I'd go Currency next, but I want something cheap to trade for Archery and bribe a war, so I go for Poly --> Monotheism.
1320 BC, Copper grows to max pop and runs 2 scientists, and now continuously builds workers. Would it have been better to go straight to monument, get the scientists going, and only then build workers here? Probably.
I've now fully explored Alex's lands:
Another shot of Gilgamesh's land:
And the land in the NW, with my planned dotmap:
The blue dots will work Commerce's cottages, to mature them faster than the city could on its own.
The brown dot is marginal, it gets one grassland and one gold and that's it.
Thoughts on the dotmap? Please share.
Workers swarm Commerce. 2 improve the gems. (Copper works the gems for now, 1 food starvation is no big deal). 2 improve the rice (with a farm this time, since this city is food-poor), and the rest make cottages.
Gilgamesh gets The Great Lighthouse in Rome. Good to know for later.
Monotheism at 1070 BC, and I start Currency. (No one has been willing to go to war or stop trading, so I'm not sure how worthwhile Poly + Monotheism were, but hopefully I can trade it eventually). My capital will make missionaries after finish a settler.
Another settler at 1060 BC, whipped out 2 turns later. He goes just West of Commerce to fully block that off from Alex, arrives on turn 250.
Also during this turnset: My capital produced a few axes, one chariot and a spear. Horse (the production city to the East) grew to size 6 and is almost done with the barracks. Gilgamesh researched Math but won't trade it. Alex didn't research anything since I got alphabet (I think).
Next turnset: Get Commerce online, claim the other blue dot (to the East of Commerce), and keep trying to get Alex and Gilgamesh to fight.
Anyone know the threshold value for military strength where AIs won't declare on me?
OneLeggedRhino
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6th Turnset (Years 1000-500 BC, Turns 250-300)
I start the turnset building and whipping another settler, for the blue dot just East of Commerce. This is the last city between me and the AIs, and I want to make sure to grab it. Plus Horse just grew to size 6, is working garbage squares, and has no whip unhappiness, so it's a natural spot.
I found my 5th city, Com-W, in 990 BC, and chop a granary. Not a great city, but it blocks off the NW area, helps push against Alex's culture, and it will help Commerce's cottages mature. I'll farm the non-overlapping land for specialists.
And a few turns later, here's Com-E. Same deal, although this city's actually pretty good. (Would be better if I moved it East, but that would miss the point of the overlap with Commerce). I'd seen Alex's nearby city (barely on screen to the SE) at the end of last turnset, which is part of why I rushed this one out.
These cities have tanked my economy. Breakeven is like 20%. But as the 3 new commerce cities come online, things will get back in order.
What's this? Alex will go to war?
He won't do it for Polytheism, so I trade that for Archery to see if he'll do it for Mono. No dice. I tech Priesthood (4 turns at the cost of most of my treasury), but still no dice.
3 turns later I get the GS from Copper. He can bulb math, which Gilgamesh has but Alex doesn't. So I think for a minute, then pop the bulb. Here's why:
The other option? Academy in Commerce. Good long-term, but weak now (only really useful for the culture at the moment). So it can wait until the next scientist in 100 turns or so.
Quick look at where everyone's techs stand now. The missing tech on the left is Mysticism, and I'm researching Currency.
Alex drives a hard bargain, but a war is a war, and I take it. The war winds up lasting 14 turns, and makes Gilgamesh give Alex worst-enemy status for a while.
I was sloppy and let Copper shrink a population. Damn. I'd meant to turn on growth after the Great Scientist, but got so caught up with Alex that I forgot. I turn off scientists, work cottages, and build a Missionary and then Wealth while the city grows.
Also, I rename it to Copper(GP), because it will become a great person city once I can spread irrigation.
I've been reading about putting whip overflow into failure gold. (I call it the "Failure Economy"). I check my options for that, and notice no one has The Oracle at 760 BC!?! Total surprise (I didn't even check it when I got Priesthood), but definitely worth racing for.
My capital has a Missionary almost done, so I whip it for 90 overflow, and pull 6 workers over. One finishes the pre-chopped forest, 5 chop 3 other forests, and before those chops even complete, I get the notice that I can whip to finish. Takes me about 1 second to decide to spend the pop instead of waiting 1 more turn for the chops, and The Oracle is mine.
The only question: Which tech to grab, Currency or Metal Casting? Currency is the one I really need, but I've already put about 300 beakers into it (it costs about 1950 on Marathon / Immortal), and Metal is worth about 2150, plus I have the 20% bonus on Currency (from having both math and alphabet), so I'd be missing out on about 800 beakers taking it over Metal.
But I don't need Forges, and I do need trade routes and Markets. And at breakeven tech, it will take 205 turns to complete Currency. (Less time with 3 commerce cities coming online and someone building wealth, but it still would take a while). So I go with useful now over useful later and grab Currency, and start a Market in my capital. (Should have kept a few workers there to chop it out, but didn't think of it until after I'd moved everyone back to where they were).
If anyone was wondering about binary research (0% slider to build up gold, then 100% once you can afford the tech), this turnset should show you why it's good, between the quick Priesthood and the free Currency.
Those trade routes pay off:
I start another settler in Horse(P) to start on the NW backfill area. I want several settlers, so I slow-build this one.
For anyone not use BUG mod, this is how I keep track of when to whip, grow cities, etc. It schedules a reminder that pops up at X turns in the future.
The game at turn 300:
The 3 commerce cities are coming online, all building libraries. I have 2 workers roading to the NW cities. Copper is growing and making wealth, and once it grows 1 more, I'll put it back on scientists. All my border cities have several defenders (real units, not warriors), plus an axe in the middle.
One worker is chopping out the Market for my capital, since I'll need to turn off research soon. And the Settler is about to pop out of Horse.
And what's this? I can bribe another war? Next turn we'll find out how much Alex wants Courthouses.
Next turnset: Research Civil Service, move the palace to Commerce, finally farm up my capital, and fill in some NW cities.
I start the turnset building and whipping another settler, for the blue dot just East of Commerce. This is the last city between me and the AIs, and I want to make sure to grab it. Plus Horse just grew to size 6, is working garbage squares, and has no whip unhappiness, so it's a natural spot.
I found my 5th city, Com-W, in 990 BC, and chop a granary. Not a great city, but it blocks off the NW area, helps push against Alex's culture, and it will help Commerce's cottages mature. I'll farm the non-overlapping land for specialists.
And a few turns later, here's Com-E. Same deal, although this city's actually pretty good. (Would be better if I moved it East, but that would miss the point of the overlap with Commerce). I'd seen Alex's nearby city (barely on screen to the SE) at the end of last turnset, which is part of why I rushed this one out.
These cities have tanked my economy. Breakeven is like 20%. But as the 3 new commerce cities come online, things will get back in order.
What's this? Alex will go to war?
He won't do it for Polytheism, so I trade that for Archery to see if he'll do it for Mono. No dice. I tech Priesthood (4 turns at the cost of most of my treasury), but still no dice.
3 turns later I get the GS from Copper. He can bulb math, which Gilgamesh has but Alex doesn't. So I think for a minute, then pop the bulb. Here's why:
- Gilgamesh won't trade math now, but once someone builds the Hanging Gardens, he probably will.
- But I want that war. And with math, I can probably bribe Alex for it.
- Plus it will give me a 20% bump in researching Currency.
The other option? Academy in Commerce. Good long-term, but weak now (only really useful for the culture at the moment). So it can wait until the next scientist in 100 turns or so.
Quick look at where everyone's techs stand now. The missing tech on the left is Mysticism, and I'm researching Currency.
Alex drives a hard bargain, but a war is a war, and I take it. The war winds up lasting 14 turns, and makes Gilgamesh give Alex worst-enemy status for a while.
I was sloppy and let Copper shrink a population. Damn. I'd meant to turn on growth after the Great Scientist, but got so caught up with Alex that I forgot. I turn off scientists, work cottages, and build a Missionary and then Wealth while the city grows.
Also, I rename it to Copper(GP), because it will become a great person city once I can spread irrigation.
I've been reading about putting whip overflow into failure gold. (I call it the "Failure Economy"). I check my options for that, and notice no one has The Oracle at 760 BC!?! Total surprise (I didn't even check it when I got Priesthood), but definitely worth racing for.
My capital has a Missionary almost done, so I whip it for 90 overflow, and pull 6 workers over. One finishes the pre-chopped forest, 5 chop 3 other forests, and before those chops even complete, I get the notice that I can whip to finish. Takes me about 1 second to decide to spend the pop instead of waiting 1 more turn for the chops, and The Oracle is mine.
The only question: Which tech to grab, Currency or Metal Casting? Currency is the one I really need, but I've already put about 300 beakers into it (it costs about 1950 on Marathon / Immortal), and Metal is worth about 2150, plus I have the 20% bonus on Currency (from having both math and alphabet), so I'd be missing out on about 800 beakers taking it over Metal.
But I don't need Forges, and I do need trade routes and Markets. And at breakeven tech, it will take 205 turns to complete Currency. (Less time with 3 commerce cities coming online and someone building wealth, but it still would take a while). So I go with useful now over useful later and grab Currency, and start a Market in my capital. (Should have kept a few workers there to chop it out, but didn't think of it until after I'd moved everyone back to where they were).
If anyone was wondering about binary research (0% slider to build up gold, then 100% once you can afford the tech), this turnset should show you why it's good, between the quick Priesthood and the free Currency.
Those trade routes pay off:
I start another settler in Horse(P) to start on the NW backfill area. I want several settlers, so I slow-build this one.
For anyone not use BUG mod, this is how I keep track of when to whip, grow cities, etc. It schedules a reminder that pops up at X turns in the future.
The game at turn 300:
The 3 commerce cities are coming online, all building libraries. I have 2 workers roading to the NW cities. Copper is growing and making wealth, and once it grows 1 more, I'll put it back on scientists. All my border cities have several defenders (real units, not warriors), plus an axe in the middle.
One worker is chopping out the Market for my capital, since I'll need to turn off research soon. And the Settler is about to pop out of Horse.
And what's this? I can bribe another war? Next turn we'll find out how much Alex wants Courthouses.
Next turnset: Research Civil Service, move the palace to Commerce, finally farm up my capital, and fill in some NW cities.
OneLeggedRhino
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Thanks Kossin. So unless you have more troops than them, troop count doesn't matter?
OneLeggedRhino
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7th Turnset (Years 500 BC - 1 AD, Turns 300-350)
Apparently Alex doesn't want courthouses that much. Shame, a second war would have been nice.
Why won't Gilgamesh declare on Alex? (I'd rather the other way around, but Gilg wants a bunch of techs from me). He "Just doesn't like me enough." Maybe a gift will change that?
Nope. Doesn't even register. And I'm not gifting him an expensive tech just to test it.
Also, apparently I founded Confucism. Good sign, means I'm teching well relative to the other continents, but I don't really care. Maybe late game I'll spread it? Probably not.
Turn 305 I found W Gold (Weak). That's the name. I picked that dot first because it's centralized, and the gold is a big deal for commerce right now. Later on, it will get dominated by the neighboring cities, only getting the gold and 1-2 grassland. I call it (Weak) to remind me not to build much here. It skips the granary and goes straight for library.
(Another tip for players looking to improve: Have the missionary and workers waiting for the settler, not the other way around. Fixing that alone moved me up 1/2 a level).
A few turns later, Alex can't be bribed for war anymore. Why not?
Gulp.
Finally I get to try the whip overflow to failure gold. It works really well. How have I lived a happy life not doing this?
In preparation for Alex, I chop 1 forest for archers, then build axes in both Horse and my capital.
Whip --> fail gold #2. Here, I want to grow the city, so I only whip 1 pop.
A few turns later, I found W Fish (GP), a great people city. Not the best city in the NW area, but hopefully it will discourage Alex from using a Galley to settle past it.
I swap to Caste System to run an artist for 6 turns, pop the borders to get fish and iron, then swap back to slavery. It's things like that that make me pick Spiritual.
Also, Horse makes a workboat so W Fish can focus on buildings. (I should have done that before the settler and had it waiting, since the workboat took 16 turns to get there).
Alex spends 200 EPs knocking the banana Hamlet down to a Cottage. Good for him. Cuz it's not like I was going to rip that out as soon as I got Calendar.
A note on city improvements: Now that I'm getting Civil Service, I stop making cottages except for at the Commerce city. Just resources, mines and roads. Soon, all this land to the West will be farms. Until then, it can stay undeveloped.
After worrying about Alex attacking me for 10 turns, I ask if he can spare 100G. "Sure, always happy to help," and he drops out of "Preparing for war" status. And I do a happy dance.
While we're at it, let's hit Gilgamesh up for 100G too. The turn after, he'll finally trade Calendar. (He was 4 turns from Currency, which means "almost there" on marathon, which is why the trade looks so uneven).
The Mausoleum (+50% Golden Age length) is still available. If it's still available when I settle the 3rd city in the NW and get Marble, I'll rush it.
(By the way, you can see the Mausoleum of Mausolus at the British Museum. It's called the "Mausoleum at Halicarnassus." They have the Parthenon there, too. It's really cool to see the real-life wonders that inspired the game).
I start farming my capital. Once Civil Service pops and I relocate the palace to Commerce, I'll farm the cottages too.
The peace from Alex's gift is over, he's back to "preparing for war" mode (the fist on the scoreboard), and there's a stack on my border. I ask for another 100G, no dice. Time to prepare.
Horse and my capital build more units. The 3 commerce cities each put 1 turn into walls, in case I need to whip later. (Alex doesn't have siege).
After sweating and planning defense for 4, Alex declares on Gilgamesh, with no bribe involved. Awesome!
Gilg: "Please stop trading with Alex." Me: "No." Gilg:
With peace for a while, it's time to expand. I want that marble in the Northern half of the NW peninsula.
(I should have swapped the farm to the hill, trading 1C for 1P. Man, reviewing all your moves makes you realize how bad you are).
Alex's first tech in about 100 turns, and one Gilgamesh doesn't have. Sure, I'll trade.
(Another tip I wish I knew 6 months ago: To find out how much gold either side needs to offer to make a deal happen, put the techs into the trade then hit "What would make this work." It adds gold or other techs to whichever side the AI thinks is light).
Gilgamesh's creative culture is pushing my borders in Horse. Time for another swap to Caste System, run 2 artists and get the 2nd border pop. Problem solved in about 10 turns, and I continue loving Spiritual.
W Gold finishes the library and starts on wealth. When I struggled on Monarch and Emperor, I'd hardly ever build wealth. Just kept building infrastructure. Took me a while to realize that it doesn't pay off in cities like this, since they'll never have enough base commerce or maintenance for the multipliers to mean much.
The commerce cities complete their libraries (Commerce working a hills mine, Com-E and Com-W got whipped earlier, more for the culture than the research bump), and I turn research on. Civil Service in 21.
I finally develop the spices in Copper (forgot about them for a few turns), and turn off scientists to let the city grow. 1 more pop, then back to workers.
(Why not run 1 scientist instead of the forest? Well, the max I can get is +4 food. So running 1 scientist means it grows 1/2 as fast. I can run 1 scientist for 26 turns, or 0 scientists for 13 turns then return to 2 scientists, which gets me the same total scientist-turns, plus an earlier Courthouse).
Alex has a stack going toward Gilgamesh's lightly-defended city. Hopefully he takes it, and my borders can spread out.
The game at turn 350:
The West is developing. Commerce is commerce-ing, with its assistants helping cottages develop nicely. W Fish went Granary-Courthouse. (It can run plenty of scientists with Caste, so it doesn't need a library yet). And I have a settler on the way for a 3rd city in the NW.
Horse is building fail gold until size 8 or 9, then more workers. My capital is building settlers and missionaries. And I still have plenty of chops at either to rush the Mausoleum if I get the chance. No need to pre-chop, since it's too big to 1-turn chop rush anyway.
Alex hasn't teched much. I think he over-expanded and now he's stalled. Gilgamesh has gotten Construction and is working on Machinery. I'm guessing Engineering is next?
Next turnset: Finish filling in the NW, and prepare to conquer Gilgamesh myself.
Apparently Alex doesn't want courthouses that much. Shame, a second war would have been nice.
Why won't Gilgamesh declare on Alex? (I'd rather the other way around, but Gilg wants a bunch of techs from me). He "Just doesn't like me enough." Maybe a gift will change that?
Nope. Doesn't even register. And I'm not gifting him an expensive tech just to test it.
Also, apparently I founded Confucism. Good sign, means I'm teching well relative to the other continents, but I don't really care. Maybe late game I'll spread it? Probably not.
Turn 305 I found W Gold (Weak). That's the name. I picked that dot first because it's centralized, and the gold is a big deal for commerce right now. Later on, it will get dominated by the neighboring cities, only getting the gold and 1-2 grassland. I call it (Weak) to remind me not to build much here. It skips the granary and goes straight for library.
(Another tip for players looking to improve: Have the missionary and workers waiting for the settler, not the other way around. Fixing that alone moved me up 1/2 a level).
A few turns later, Alex can't be bribed for war anymore. Why not?
Gulp.
Finally I get to try the whip overflow to failure gold. It works really well. How have I lived a happy life not doing this?
In preparation for Alex, I chop 1 forest for archers, then build axes in both Horse and my capital.
Whip --> fail gold #2. Here, I want to grow the city, so I only whip 1 pop.
A few turns later, I found W Fish (GP), a great people city. Not the best city in the NW area, but hopefully it will discourage Alex from using a Galley to settle past it.
I swap to Caste System to run an artist for 6 turns, pop the borders to get fish and iron, then swap back to slavery. It's things like that that make me pick Spiritual.
Also, Horse makes a workboat so W Fish can focus on buildings. (I should have done that before the settler and had it waiting, since the workboat took 16 turns to get there).
Alex spends 200 EPs knocking the banana Hamlet down to a Cottage. Good for him. Cuz it's not like I was going to rip that out as soon as I got Calendar.
A note on city improvements: Now that I'm getting Civil Service, I stop making cottages except for at the Commerce city. Just resources, mines and roads. Soon, all this land to the West will be farms. Until then, it can stay undeveloped.
After worrying about Alex attacking me for 10 turns, I ask if he can spare 100G. "Sure, always happy to help," and he drops out of "Preparing for war" status. And I do a happy dance.
While we're at it, let's hit Gilgamesh up for 100G too. The turn after, he'll finally trade Calendar. (He was 4 turns from Currency, which means "almost there" on marathon, which is why the trade looks so uneven).
The Mausoleum (+50% Golden Age length) is still available. If it's still available when I settle the 3rd city in the NW and get Marble, I'll rush it.
(By the way, you can see the Mausoleum of Mausolus at the British Museum. It's called the "Mausoleum at Halicarnassus." They have the Parthenon there, too. It's really cool to see the real-life wonders that inspired the game).
I start farming my capital. Once Civil Service pops and I relocate the palace to Commerce, I'll farm the cottages too.
The peace from Alex's gift is over, he's back to "preparing for war" mode (the fist on the scoreboard), and there's a stack on my border. I ask for another 100G, no dice. Time to prepare.
Horse and my capital build more units. The 3 commerce cities each put 1 turn into walls, in case I need to whip later. (Alex doesn't have siege).
After sweating and planning defense for 4, Alex declares on Gilgamesh, with no bribe involved. Awesome!
Gilg: "Please stop trading with Alex." Me: "No." Gilg:
With peace for a while, it's time to expand. I want that marble in the Northern half of the NW peninsula.
(I should have swapped the farm to the hill, trading 1C for 1P. Man, reviewing all your moves makes you realize how bad you are).
Alex's first tech in about 100 turns, and one Gilgamesh doesn't have. Sure, I'll trade.
(Another tip I wish I knew 6 months ago: To find out how much gold either side needs to offer to make a deal happen, put the techs into the trade then hit "What would make this work." It adds gold or other techs to whichever side the AI thinks is light).
Gilgamesh's creative culture is pushing my borders in Horse. Time for another swap to Caste System, run 2 artists and get the 2nd border pop. Problem solved in about 10 turns, and I continue loving Spiritual.
W Gold finishes the library and starts on wealth. When I struggled on Monarch and Emperor, I'd hardly ever build wealth. Just kept building infrastructure. Took me a while to realize that it doesn't pay off in cities like this, since they'll never have enough base commerce or maintenance for the multipliers to mean much.
The commerce cities complete their libraries (Commerce working a hills mine, Com-E and Com-W got whipped earlier, more for the culture than the research bump), and I turn research on. Civil Service in 21.
I finally develop the spices in Copper (forgot about them for a few turns), and turn off scientists to let the city grow. 1 more pop, then back to workers.
(Why not run 1 scientist instead of the forest? Well, the max I can get is +4 food. So running 1 scientist means it grows 1/2 as fast. I can run 1 scientist for 26 turns, or 0 scientists for 13 turns then return to 2 scientists, which gets me the same total scientist-turns, plus an earlier Courthouse).
Alex has a stack going toward Gilgamesh's lightly-defended city. Hopefully he takes it, and my borders can spread out.
The game at turn 350:
The West is developing. Commerce is commerce-ing, with its assistants helping cottages develop nicely. W Fish went Granary-Courthouse. (It can run plenty of scientists with Caste, so it doesn't need a library yet). And I have a settler on the way for a 3rd city in the NW.
Horse is building fail gold until size 8 or 9, then more workers. My capital is building settlers and missionaries. And I still have plenty of chops at either to rush the Mausoleum if I get the chance. No need to pre-chop, since it's too big to 1-turn chop rush anyway.
Alex hasn't teched much. I think he over-expanded and now he's stalled. Gilgamesh has gotten Construction and is working on Machinery. I'm guessing Engineering is next?
Next turnset: Finish filling in the NW, and prepare to conquer Gilgamesh myself.
OneLeggedRhino
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8th Turnset (Years 1-500 AD, Turns 350-400)
As predicted, Gilgamesh is going for Engineering. That's an offense tech, it won't help him defend against my invasion. (Castles will, but spies > castles). Good.
Also as I'd hoped, Alex takes Medio-whatever. This is the city closest to my land, so gaining those squares of culture makes moving troops through my territory a bit straighter, and lets Com-E expand.
Alex builds the Mausoleum (somewhere near his Capital, I don't get the map over in time). Oh well, would have been nice but no big deal.
Alex: "Fight Gilgamesh with me.
" Me: "No dude, the whole point is for you to fight while I expand. Now go spend units."
Also, I notice that Alex has -3 from close borders. Wow.
NW crabs founded. Work an artist to pop the borders. That completes my NW expansion, just one more city N of my capital (with a ton of overlap) and I'm full.
Civil Service completes. Time to rip out Cottages and make Copper a proper GP city.
Alex founds Christianity. Looks like his economy is back on track. I may come to regret trading him Currency and Laws, but I'd rather speed my whole continent up than lose the tech race to someone far away. I may need to tech steal soon, tough.
Alex takes a second city, just South of Horse. Gilgamesh gives him Metal Casting to make peace.
Hey, my military power is 0.8 of Gilgamesh's. That should make for an easy invasion. But Alex's 2 stacks on my border make me nervous. (Mouseover shows one of them, the other is about the same size).
Me: "Hey buddy, can you spare some change? And a peace treaty along with it? k thx bye."
Aesthetics pops. I'd researched it to trade, and also to get the epics. (Parthenon is still available, probably Great Library too, but I'm preparing for war, so no free hammers for it).
Screenshot didn't come out, but I trade Aesthetics and Monarchy to Gilgamesh for Construction and some gold. "Hey, could you give me the means to invade you? Thanks. Here's some art."
Then I swap back to slavery and whip 4 cats in Horse and my capital. (2 whips plus overflow). Copper makes spies (it needs to chop forests for farms anyway), and I found the final city NE of my capital (where it gets silk and floodplains and not much else).
And Fuuuuudge... I can't spread irrigation from Copper to the NW cities. That grasslands joining the areas is a hill. The only way is to farm the gems in Com-W, which I'll need to take from Alex first. Once I can swap back to Caste, I turn all 4 population into artists to pop Com-W's borders in 3 turns.
Gilgamesh's land. 5 cities. One I haven't seen but know is there, and the one in the SE I'll probably raze. A win is taking all his land. Anything less than that (like only taking 2 cities) I'd consider disappointing.
The main complication is that Alex is researching Feudalism, so Gilgamesh may vassal to him. Alex has 2x my troops, so he won't be afraid to jump in. Hopefully I can get him to gift me gold (and 10 turns of peace), then swoop in and get Gilg's last 2-3 cities.
My invading force > Gilg's defending force.
I bombard, attack with 1 catapult, and take the city in 1 turn with only 3 losses.
Gilg's stack. Chariot-heavy, which worries me since I'm axe-heavy. So I promote an archer to City 2 and the sword to Combat 2 and hope for the best.
I'd thought I'd have another turn before the cat could hit, figuring I'd either defend chariots or he'd wait and I'd get the first strike. But Gilg has Engineering for a third move. With lots of units not promoted, defense goes badly for me.
My counterattack kills his entire stack, including his great general. Which would be great if I were defending an invasion. Not so much when I'm trying to roll through his cities. He should only have city defenders now, but I'm down to 1 cat, so I'll need a few more troops before advancing.
Turn 400: Finally, someone completed Chetchen Itza. I have over 1k fail gold in it, which gives me enough to pop Feudalism in 15 turns and vassal Gilg myself if I want. (I'd rather conquer him for his Great Lighthouse, but he does have 3 techs I'd like, so taking his GL city then vassaling him is an option).
My spies are hanging out in Ravenna, ready to send it into revolt when my stack arrives.
Next turnset: Do I conquer Gilgamesh, vassal him, or does he vassal to Alex and I wind up on the wrong side of a 2v1? I have no idea.
As predicted, Gilgamesh is going for Engineering. That's an offense tech, it won't help him defend against my invasion. (Castles will, but spies > castles). Good.
Also as I'd hoped, Alex takes Medio-whatever. This is the city closest to my land, so gaining those squares of culture makes moving troops through my territory a bit straighter, and lets Com-E expand.
Alex builds the Mausoleum (somewhere near his Capital, I don't get the map over in time). Oh well, would have been nice but no big deal.
Alex: "Fight Gilgamesh with me.
" Me: "No dude, the whole point is for you to fight while I expand. Now go spend units."
Also, I notice that Alex has -3 from close borders. Wow.
NW crabs founded. Work an artist to pop the borders. That completes my NW expansion, just one more city N of my capital (with a ton of overlap) and I'm full.
Civil Service completes. Time to rip out Cottages and make Copper a proper GP city.
Alex founds Christianity. Looks like his economy is back on track. I may come to regret trading him Currency and Laws, but I'd rather speed my whole continent up than lose the tech race to someone far away. I may need to tech steal soon, tough.
Alex takes a second city, just South of Horse. Gilgamesh gives him Metal Casting to make peace.
Hey, my military power is 0.8 of Gilgamesh's. That should make for an easy invasion. But Alex's 2 stacks on my border make me nervous. (Mouseover shows one of them, the other is about the same size).
Me: "Hey buddy, can you spare some change? And a peace treaty along with it? k thx bye."
Aesthetics pops. I'd researched it to trade, and also to get the epics. (Parthenon is still available, probably Great Library too, but I'm preparing for war, so no free hammers for it).
Screenshot didn't come out, but I trade Aesthetics and Monarchy to Gilgamesh for Construction and some gold. "Hey, could you give me the means to invade you? Thanks. Here's some art."
Then I swap back to slavery and whip 4 cats in Horse and my capital. (2 whips plus overflow). Copper makes spies (it needs to chop forests for farms anyway), and I found the final city NE of my capital (where it gets silk and floodplains and not much else).
And Fuuuuudge... I can't spread irrigation from Copper to the NW cities. That grasslands joining the areas is a hill. The only way is to farm the gems in Com-W, which I'll need to take from Alex first. Once I can swap back to Caste, I turn all 4 population into artists to pop Com-W's borders in 3 turns.
Gilgamesh's land. 5 cities. One I haven't seen but know is there, and the one in the SE I'll probably raze. A win is taking all his land. Anything less than that (like only taking 2 cities) I'd consider disappointing.
The main complication is that Alex is researching Feudalism, so Gilgamesh may vassal to him. Alex has 2x my troops, so he won't be afraid to jump in. Hopefully I can get him to gift me gold (and 10 turns of peace), then swoop in and get Gilg's last 2-3 cities.
My invading force > Gilg's defending force.
I bombard, attack with 1 catapult, and take the city in 1 turn with only 3 losses.
Gilg's stack. Chariot-heavy, which worries me since I'm axe-heavy. So I promote an archer to City 2 and the sword to Combat 2 and hope for the best.
I'd thought I'd have another turn before the cat could hit, figuring I'd either defend chariots or he'd wait and I'd get the first strike. But Gilg has Engineering for a third move. With lots of units not promoted, defense goes badly for me.
My counterattack kills his entire stack, including his great general. Which would be great if I were defending an invasion. Not so much when I'm trying to roll through his cities. He should only have city defenders now, but I'm down to 1 cat, so I'll need a few more troops before advancing.
Turn 400: Finally, someone completed Chetchen Itza. I have over 1k fail gold in it, which gives me enough to pop Feudalism in 15 turns and vassal Gilg myself if I want. (I'd rather conquer him for his Great Lighthouse, but he does have 3 techs I'd like, so taking his GL city then vassaling him is an option).
My spies are hanging out in Ravenna, ready to send it into revolt when my stack arrives.
Next turnset: Do I conquer Gilgamesh, vassal him, or does he vassal to Alex and I wind up on the wrong side of a 2v1? I have no idea.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
9th Turnset (Years 500-1000 AD, Turns 400-450)
Here's my thinking on Gilgamesh vassaling to Alex:
Something clever like getting Alex to gift 100G (and a peace treaty) would be great. Definitely going to try for it. But that's a lucky break, not a military plan.
I need a way to win even if everything goes wrong. And that plan is: Maces.
I have Civil Service, Alex doesn't. Both AIs have Metal Casting, so I can research that with a 40% bump, and trade Alex Aesthetics when MC is halfway done. Gilg is the only one with Machinery, so it's also nice to research that while he's still alive for the 20% research bump.
Sure, Alex still has Longbows, so I won't be taking his cities much. But I only want to survive his attack, finish Gilgamesh, then get peace. Maces should let me do that.
Quick review of techs:
I also put everyone in Copper on on producing a Great Scientist. (I keep the spy on because it's so hard to produce Great Spies this early, and having one will be great for stealing Alex's techs, which is vital since he doesn't like trading if he's the only one that knows something).
I wind up with a Great Scientist and build the Academy in Commerce.
Chitchen Itza failgold helps immensely. It's over 2k, twice what I'd expected.
Hi Gilg, thanks for leaving those Jungles to cover my approach.
I've overcommitted to the attack. An axe and a chariot make me sweat. I promote the archer (City Garrison 1), work artists to pop the borders for the additional 20%, and bring an axe and a spear over.
The archer survives with 0.8 hp. If Gilg had a 3rd unit, I would have been in trouble. I leave the melee units in between the cities, so they can cover either in 1 turn.
Alex's stack. I'm nervous.
I take Ravena, losing only one catapult. Here are the 2 cities I've won so far.
And here's most of Gilgamesh's other troops.
I'll decide on attacking now vs waiting for maces after healing up.
Alex kills a mine. I don't care about the mine, but espionage is a sign he might be planning to attack me.
With Metal Casting in, I swap to Slavery, whip Forges, and put fail gold into wonders.
What's this? 18 turns for Parthenon, plus 2 forests to chop? It should be done before Machinery. I'll take it.
7 turns later, it's mine, plus about 400 fail gold.
Alex is 3 turns from Civil Service. He doesn't have Machinery yet, so I sell it to him.
Should have remembered the espionage earlier and held off, because next turn:
Looking at these stacks, I'm horribly unprepared. That's game. I'll do a post-mortem next.
Here's my thinking on Gilgamesh vassaling to Alex:
Something clever like getting Alex to gift 100G (and a peace treaty) would be great. Definitely going to try for it. But that's a lucky break, not a military plan.
I need a way to win even if everything goes wrong. And that plan is: Maces.
I have Civil Service, Alex doesn't. Both AIs have Metal Casting, so I can research that with a 40% bump, and trade Alex Aesthetics when MC is halfway done. Gilg is the only one with Machinery, so it's also nice to research that while he's still alive for the 20% research bump.
Sure, Alex still has Longbows, so I won't be taking his cities much. But I only want to survive his attack, finish Gilgamesh, then get peace. Maces should let me do that.
Quick review of techs:
Spoiler :
I also put everyone in Copper on on producing a Great Scientist. (I keep the spy on because it's so hard to produce Great Spies this early, and having one will be great for stealing Alex's techs, which is vital since he doesn't like trading if he's the only one that knows something).
Spoiler :
I wind up with a Great Scientist and build the Academy in Commerce.
Chitchen Itza failgold helps immensely. It's over 2k, twice what I'd expected.
Spoiler :
Hi Gilg, thanks for leaving those Jungles to cover my approach.
Spoiler :
I've overcommitted to the attack. An axe and a chariot make me sweat. I promote the archer (City Garrison 1), work artists to pop the borders for the additional 20%, and bring an axe and a spear over.
Spoiler :
The archer survives with 0.8 hp. If Gilg had a 3rd unit, I would have been in trouble. I leave the melee units in between the cities, so they can cover either in 1 turn.
Spoiler :
Alex's stack. I'm nervous.
Spoiler :
I take Ravena, losing only one catapult. Here are the 2 cities I've won so far.
Spoiler :
And here's most of Gilgamesh's other troops.
Spoiler :
I'll decide on attacking now vs waiting for maces after healing up.
Alex kills a mine. I don't care about the mine, but espionage is a sign he might be planning to attack me.
Spoiler :
With Metal Casting in, I swap to Slavery, whip Forges, and put fail gold into wonders.
What's this? 18 turns for Parthenon, plus 2 forests to chop? It should be done before Machinery. I'll take it.
Spoiler :
7 turns later, it's mine, plus about 400 fail gold.
Alex is 3 turns from Civil Service. He doesn't have Machinery yet, so I sell it to him.
Spoiler :
Should have remembered the espionage earlier and held off, because next turn:
Spoiler :
Looking at these stacks, I'm horribly unprepared. That's game. I'll do a post-mortem next.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
Post-Mortem
You can't win 'em all.
The Good
This was my first game using whip overflow for failgold. I love it. Early on, when we talked about cottages in the capital, I went with them because every game when I haven't, my economy has stalled badly. I think failgold should fix that problem.
I'm also pleased about getting Alphabet first, bribing an early war, and the 3-city Commerce setup (also my first time doing that much overlap, it works really well).
The Bad
I overexpanded and over-conquered. My break-even was about 20% at the end. I should have held off on the NW peninsula (besides the Fish city to keep Alex from expanding there, and the Gold city that pays for itself) until after I could spread irrigation.
The Ugly
Instead of double-teaming Gilgamesh, I should have double-teamed Alex. My real error was not containing Alex.
My goal in bribing wars wasn't to get Alex to conquer Gilgamesh, it was to get them both to burn troops while I teched. I'd expected the fighting between them to be a draw, but it was horribly one-sided, and instead of recognizing this and correcting it, I further over-expanded, leaving my troops out of place when Alex attacked.
Specifically, when their second war ended, I should have built up to attack Alex, then bribed Gilgamesh to join in. It would have let me claim the cities near Commerce (so I could spread irrigation NW), kept my empire close-knit, and slowed Alex down.
Thoughts?
Did you see errors that I haven't noticed? Please share.
Until Next Time
Hope you had fun reading, and maybe learned something. I definitely did. See you next time. -Rhino
You can't win 'em all.
The Good
This was my first game using whip overflow for failgold. I love it. Early on, when we talked about cottages in the capital, I went with them because every game when I haven't, my economy has stalled badly. I think failgold should fix that problem.
I'm also pleased about getting Alphabet first, bribing an early war, and the 3-city Commerce setup (also my first time doing that much overlap, it works really well).
The Bad
I overexpanded and over-conquered. My break-even was about 20% at the end. I should have held off on the NW peninsula (besides the Fish city to keep Alex from expanding there, and the Gold city that pays for itself) until after I could spread irrigation.
The Ugly
Instead of double-teaming Gilgamesh, I should have double-teamed Alex. My real error was not containing Alex.
My goal in bribing wars wasn't to get Alex to conquer Gilgamesh, it was to get them both to burn troops while I teched. I'd expected the fighting between them to be a draw, but it was horribly one-sided, and instead of recognizing this and correcting it, I further over-expanded, leaving my troops out of place when Alex attacked.
Specifically, when their second war ended, I should have built up to attack Alex, then bribed Gilgamesh to join in. It would have let me claim the cities near Commerce (so I could spread irrigation NW), kept my empire close-knit, and slowed Alex down.
Thoughts?
Did you see errors that I haven't noticed? Please share.
Until Next Time
Hope you had fun reading, and maybe learned something. I definitely did. See you next time. -Rhino
Gilgamesh is easier to keep happy with Hereditary Rule, this is indeed the diplo mistake that made the game like it is. Of course, it's probably still salvageable but it will be more of a headache
Skallagrimson
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 2,043
Most of the screenies didn't load for me. Is my iPad just ******** or are others having the same problem?
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
They're loading for me. For most of the turnsets they're straight in the post. For the last, I took Kossin's advice and put them in spoilers. Could that be it? Are the screencaps working in my other game writeup?
screenies load ok for me.
i too think you overexpanded a bit, i do it too constantly and like to enter builder more too much.
your situation really reminds me my recent games
and trusting Alex is a mistake, he's a serial backstabber. I even like Shaka/Monty more, as they are at least more predictable.
i too think you overexpanded a bit, i do it too constantly and like to enter builder more too much.
your situation really reminds me my recent games
and trusting Alex is a mistake, he's a serial backstabber. I even like Shaka/Monty more, as they are at least more predictable.
