Bulbing, Settling, Building an Academy? What to do with a Great Scientist

[asinine barbs]

Agree with you dirk1302, unless we have all information and variables we cant give a definite answer. He could have posted a save for accurate responses

 

[Silu]

I usually don't like cultural in isolation. Defending is easier, but it's hard to get a decent number of religions for a fast win. Also depends too much on what's going on elsewhere. But sure it's a possibility.

 

[JammerUno]

250 BC means there's still quite some time for an academy to outperform bulbing philo beakerwise. Early astro can be a great help, but if the cost is losing the lib race, you would probably need the GHL to make that worthwile.

 

[Dirk1302]

Lib race is always tricky on immortal+ isolated, can't and shouldn't count on it. Trying for it is ok though especially since edu and also lib itself will be very good trading items.

 

[asinine barbs]

Lib race is always tricky on immortal+ isolated,

All the more reason to go down the machinery optics astro path wouldnt you agree?

 

[Dirk1302]

Only with a bad capital. Buro's too important to miss out on otherwise.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

250 BC means there's still quite some time for an academy to outperform bulbing philo beakerwise. Early astro can be a great help, but if the cost is losing the lib race, you would probably need the GHL to make that worthwile

Outperforming beakerwise is not something to compare in the case of bulbing Philo. Trade bait, early access to the Lib line in general, quick access to Pacif (if that's your strat), and the ability to screw up future enemy's diplo via founding Taoism/spreading/spy switch religion is more powerful purpose. Plus, if you get 3 or 4 techs out of trading Philo, the beakers add up much more quickly.

 

[asinine barbs]

Plus, if you get 3 or 4 techs out of trading Philo, the beakers add up much more quickly.

.

On isolated starts you don't get to trade with some one until you have astronomy, by which time philo would have been taken.

 

[bestsss]

.

On isolated starts you don't get to trade with some one until you have astronomy, by which time philo would have been taken.

Optics you mean and also even on immortal philosophy is still a viable trade after astronomy (mostly, if you take it from lib).

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

On isolated starts you don't get to trade with some one until you have astronomy, by which time philo would have been taken.

On Isolated starts, you may not have a religion to boost and utilize OrgRel or Pacif (which is huge b/c more GP better tech situation for isolated starts), so bulbing Philo usually allows you Taoism (at least until you go free relig later). The may not be as much an issue since you may be in HerRule, but if you're able to build 'Mids (no need for troops so why not), early Rep only gives 3 to 6 largest cities, so another never hurts.

Plus, quick access to Pacif while isolated can really make a big difference allowing not only the owning of Lib race, but perhaps a deeper beeline for the free Lib tech.

Also, as bestsss pointed out, you can often still trade Philo decently when meeting others via Optics.

Finally, hurrying Philo allowing Pacif will net you faster GS and earlier for settling if that's your gig.

Really, you can't compare counts on a bulbed tech b/c there are so many other things to consider (faster/earlier GP, trades, etc) that are map/game dependent. But I've never really met a high level player who thinks that bulbing Philo is a BAD idea on any map. Rarely is it seen as not worth bulbing, either. Maybe if you lost Tao founding and/or don't like going into Pacif.

 

[Soirana]

But I've never really met a high level player who thinks that bulbing Philo is a BAD idea on any map. Rarely is it seen as not worth bulbing, either. Maybe if you lost Tao founding and/or don't like going into Pacif.

Don't recall Obsolete bulbing pacifism a lot...

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Can you recall him saying that it is a poor idea or not worth doing? I didn't write that high level players ALWAYS do this, just that I've never heard one say it is a poor choice of usage for a GS>

 

[bestsss]

blitzkrieg1980,

Actually in isolation I have mixed feelings about bulbing philosophy since I need alphabet which I'd hate to tech just to be able to bulb philosophy (no other reason against bulbing, really).

There are a few more consequences
1. You have to run Taoism yourself, that virtually guarantees heathen religion and perhaps inability to trade or even worst enemy.
2. You have to spread it, relying on auto-spread is not very efficient (more efficient on marathon, though). Organized religion in isolation - well, that I dont really see it since you have to tech. that manually again - sucks. (So you have to tech alphabet + monotheism, you can easily trade for and the latter you don't need even). To spread it manually (unless lucky) it take monastery and some missionary in a poor production [usually] city. Having monastery in the research city afterwards helps, though.
3. Unless you are spiritual you have to revolt twice which also sucks. Less of an issue if you get the great artist from music, though, then time the bulb.
4. You miss the stupid AI opportunity that they will convert to their own founded religion which is a nice way to screw itself up.

That being said, having a GP farm/wonder spam city in pacifism (which is also cheaper to run) is just great.

 

[Silu]

^ If you just want Pacifism bonus in your GP farm, that you will always (barring earlier religions) get from bulbing Philo, because of the free Missionary.

I agree that having to research Alpha is the main offender in Philobulbage. More often than not I still end up doing that, though. Might be because I prioritize Optics pretty heavily so it's almost always still good for nice trades when I meet the others. Very seldom I adopt the religion though, because of the in-out revolting sucks. Never want to be a heathen when meeting the rest of the world.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

In my limited experience, you need to settle land ASAP when isolated in order to keep up teching. Alphabet helps getting to currency and CoL quickly via building research and then wealth on the way to courthouses. So I always view Alphabet as necessary early on for the ability to city spam. Chopping out GW is necessary when isolated IMO so you can have 1 unit per city garrison.

I've always had good experiences with early/fast Philo and pacifism. I change into free religion as soon as I get Lib when isolated start. Can build Sweg also and switch as soon as you meet someone.

But fast GP has always worked for my isolated games./

 

[Silu]

No, you don't need to settle land ASAP in isolation, you can take your time and not go for the traditional landgrab-economycrash which is usually needed to block AIs ("settle land ASAP" doesn't optimize tech rate). This leads to Alpha being useless by itself, better to go straight for Currency via Math. GW is often useless; usually you can fogbust enough to get Chariot/Axes out, or until you get enough economy to fogbust every last corner.

 

[asinine barbs]

@bestss I was reading my previous posts where there was a discussion of whether to go lib or optics astro path, just got mixed up. my bad.

one more thing does any of you guys have problems connecting to the site, just as I was posting a response the connection got cut, not sure if it is my connection or the site. Happening a lot during weekends.



:Oh gosh so much has been posted already

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

GW is often useless; usually you can fogbust enough to get Chariot/Axes out, or until you get enough economy to fogbust every last corner.

I've had huge landmasses to myself before... on crowded maps! But I suppose this is true. However, I'd rather chop out GW and only need 1 unit per city garrisons (keeping unit costs low) especially if there's stone nearby for 'Mids / early Rep which I always consider great for isolated starts with decent food counts.

I've never thought about not REXing out hard when isolated. Perhaps I should try slow expansion next time this happens. With cottage heavy econs, though, faster settling = faster cottages = faster growth = faster teching, no? Especially with no one to trade with until Optics. Then again, I've still not had an isolated game on Monarch (my current level), so I could be way off on this, too

 

[TheMeInTeam]

With cottage heavy econs, though, faster settling = faster cottages = faster growth = faster teching, no?

Only if you start with enough that you don't need monarchy or any other tech that's in the mid-late classical era.

Expansion is good, but if all your cities are stuck at pop 4-5 and monarchy, currency, etc take 100 turns longer to get as a result, then you are ultimately working fewer cottages in thate time period.

Judging this per each start remains a big problem for me. If I hit it right, I show some very strong openings. Hit it wrong, and I fall behind for a long, long time.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, I see what you all are saying. Btw, I'm usually not trying to be "right" on the forums. The more I challenge the answers, the more I learn . I've moved up from Warlord to Monarch (and now I'm starting to ruin monarch AIs) thanks to you guys!