KaNick
Deity
Translation: Increase spy activity in the United States.
China steps up preparation for conflict with USA
- Thread starter 10Seven
- Start date
Translation: Increase spy activity in the United States.
You mean Seattle isn't the only city fooled into thinking the Seahawks are "gonna go all the way this year" every year?
As far as China... they are embarking on some projects of massive scale. Damming the Yangtzee is a new wonder of the World. They also re-invigorated the space race by announcing plans for the moon.
The Person
Deity +2
In the end only time will tell. We won't know what will happen until it's happened.
USA PORK
"M1, Aegis, A-10,etc......."
late 70s early 80s technology. Subsequent upgrades to the M-1 have seen no new technologies than were available in the 80s.
CHINA'S UNGRATEFUL STUDENTS
A percentage do not return, but if you compare Ireland, for instance, the likely return as the China environment improves will likely be reflected to some degree.
Even if only 10% return, the benefit to China is large, and surpassing that of, probably, most nations in the world.
USA'S STUDENTS
Simply claiming a current high level of graduates as proof of 'futureproof' is nonesense. The larger the nation the slower the cycle. Other smaller nations who similarly neglect their education are in a weaker position, lacking sufficiently trained workforce. No doubt this aspect is already being felt. Fact is, USA's position as a technological superpower erodes.
A nations ability as to technology and research benefits from a wide base - thus, educational elitism is counterproductive.
EMERGING CHINA
Any half decent student of history will see the issue is quite different. China has not been widely considered an emerging superpower except during the last 50 years. Other superpowers have attained their status through education and resource dominance, strengthened through good communications - the importance of communications can be illustrated by the Britsh Imperial superpower, whose domination of the seas was a domination of lines of communication. It's subsequent loss of status was, in part, due to alternative methods of communication, and being superceded in resource dominance.
As China is still in the process of improving these aspects - and,here,size graduates the cycle - it has not met it's 'potential' even as the USA is in a state of perhapsstagnation, flux, and maximised potential - that's if you subscribe to the theme of the USA in it's prime during the 80s. Finally assuming static technology, methods, etc.
China's development, assuming all factors remain the same, will increase near exponentially.
DANN
Since when did Chinese citizens within China get free access to the internet? Not currently. So I'm guessing your another national, or currently reside outside?
ANTI-CHINA SUPERPOWER
Appears to be a theme here as to US posters being very anti- to the idea of China as a superpower, or that the US' superpower status might become questionable...
TECH/KILL RATIOS
"Now i think the U.S. could take China if we really had to, espcecially considering our technology advantage and the American '10 to 1' plan, how our military always seems to pull off at least a 10:1 kill ratio."
This was also the attidude held during the Vietnam war. For the loss of not more than 50k people, the USA inflicted over 1 million casualties - not including wounded. Unfortunately, the numbers and technology did not translate into victory.
CHINA SIMPLY WANTS SECURITY
I've yet to see any evidence of a waning Chinese imperialism...
"M1, Aegis, A-10,etc......."
late 70s early 80s technology. Subsequent upgrades to the M-1 have seen no new technologies than were available in the 80s.
CHINA'S UNGRATEFUL STUDENTS
A percentage do not return, but if you compare Ireland, for instance, the likely return as the China environment improves will likely be reflected to some degree.
Even if only 10% return, the benefit to China is large, and surpassing that of, probably, most nations in the world.
USA'S STUDENTS
Simply claiming a current high level of graduates as proof of 'futureproof' is nonesense. The larger the nation the slower the cycle. Other smaller nations who similarly neglect their education are in a weaker position, lacking sufficiently trained workforce. No doubt this aspect is already being felt. Fact is, USA's position as a technological superpower erodes.
A nations ability as to technology and research benefits from a wide base - thus, educational elitism is counterproductive.
EMERGING CHINA
Any half decent student of history will see the issue is quite different. China has not been widely considered an emerging superpower except during the last 50 years. Other superpowers have attained their status through education and resource dominance, strengthened through good communications - the importance of communications can be illustrated by the Britsh Imperial superpower, whose domination of the seas was a domination of lines of communication. It's subsequent loss of status was, in part, due to alternative methods of communication, and being superceded in resource dominance.
As China is still in the process of improving these aspects - and,here,size graduates the cycle - it has not met it's 'potential' even as the USA is in a state of perhapsstagnation, flux, and maximised potential - that's if you subscribe to the theme of the USA in it's prime during the 80s. Finally assuming static technology, methods, etc.
China's development, assuming all factors remain the same, will increase near exponentially.
DANN
Since when did Chinese citizens within China get free access to the internet? Not currently. So I'm guessing your another national, or currently reside outside?
ANTI-CHINA SUPERPOWER
Appears to be a theme here as to US posters being very anti- to the idea of China as a superpower, or that the US' superpower status might become questionable...
TECH/KILL RATIOS
"Now i think the U.S. could take China if we really had to, espcecially considering our technology advantage and the American '10 to 1' plan, how our military always seems to pull off at least a 10:1 kill ratio."
This was also the attidude held during the Vietnam war. For the loss of not more than 50k people, the USA inflicted over 1 million casualties - not including wounded. Unfortunately, the numbers and technology did not translate into victory.
CHINA SIMPLY WANTS SECURITY
I've yet to see any evidence of a waning Chinese imperialism...
Dann
Green bug
I am a foreign national, but I work in a local company here in Shenzhen, as my location shows. My internet access is the same as that of all my local colleagues.
Curses! You saw through me...
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 29,453
This whole US paranoia is symptom of not wanting to share the top bracket with any other nation.
Too bad - more nations will be reaching first class status as time goes on.
The West either welcomes it or ignores it.
Too bad - more nations will be reaching first class status as time goes on.
The West either welcomes it or ignores it.
Free Enterprise
The return stroke.
It is not China per se that the West fears, rather it is the idea of the current Chinese government possessing a capable military, rapidly growing economy, and ability to exert anti-Western influence on rogue states. Think of the Chinese government as sort of like the government of Xerses of Persia or the Soviet regime, not the kind of person or people you want running the show in a potentially powerful state. The form of government is entirely relevant to ones opinion about the state. For example: no sane person wants North Korea to have a powerful military at all. Ruthless anti-moral dictators and oligarchies pose genuine threats to their population and even to those outside that state. The regime should be condemned for what it does in Tibet (only shameful leaders commit such actions).
Desmond Hawkins
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2002
- Messages
- 9,922
@10Seven.
US pork would be the V-22 Osprey, the Seawolf Submarine, the RAH-66 Comanche (finally cancelled), and even the F-22 to an extent.
US pork would be the V-22 Osprey, the Seawolf Submarine, the RAH-66 Comanche (finally cancelled), and even the F-22 to an extent.
SanPellegrino
Wanderer
In contrary to some posters I must say that population control in China is quite a good idea! They know they can't feed more people and took measures against population growth in time. AFAIK no one is starving in China today and that is quite a great achievement considering the history of China in the last 100 years!
this thread is laughable and reminds me of the 50s "red danger" discussion, but I must keep in mind that Civ gathers all kinds of history buffs and military freaks who just love this discussions - which of course have nothing to do with the current state of world politics.
P.S.: look at Chinese History throughout the ages - they are an introverted country, that usually just wants to be left alone.
this thread is laughable and reminds me of the 50s "red danger" discussion, but I must keep in mind that Civ gathers all kinds of history buffs and military freaks who just love this discussions - which of course have nothing to do with the current state of world politics.
P.S.: look at Chinese History throughout the ages - they are an introverted country, that usually just wants to be left alone.
The Commander
Warlord
Umm, same with the United States, but then we became a superpower and once you're there, you're in the spotlight whether you like it or not.
ANd like it was said above, it's the Chinese government gaining power, getting a modern military and a good economy that's worrying. Dann didn't touch on it much, but said that while people may talk about the government with their friends or family, if you go out in public and complain you're inviting trouble, and will probably end up in prison, and how we were talking earlier about frequent executions, etc.
I recall reading about a guy going on an anti-chinese government tirade in an internet cafe in China, and military police escorted him off to prison shortly.
In the U.S. you can go and whine and rant and yell all you want about the government, and nobody will care
But consider if Kim Jong Il decides to attack South Korea, i mean, the guy drinks like 3 bottles of hard alcohol a day, he has too much liquid courage to know that's a bad idea. So the U.S. and probably Britain, being the police of the world, go to Korea, at which point China sees its chance and jumps in, just like the first time, except this time they're one of the top countries in the world, and we've just edged closer to World War 3.
That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. While the Chinese people might not give a damn about being the biggest or best, I think the Chinese government has been thinking about it for awhile now.
ANd like it was said above, it's the Chinese government gaining power, getting a modern military and a good economy that's worrying. Dann didn't touch on it much, but said that while people may talk about the government with their friends or family, if you go out in public and complain you're inviting trouble, and will probably end up in prison, and how we were talking earlier about frequent executions, etc.
I recall reading about a guy going on an anti-chinese government tirade in an internet cafe in China, and military police escorted him off to prison shortly.
In the U.S. you can go and whine and rant and yell all you want about the government, and nobody will care
But consider if Kim Jong Il decides to attack South Korea, i mean, the guy drinks like 3 bottles of hard alcohol a day, he has too much liquid courage to know that's a bad idea. So the U.S. and probably Britain, being the police of the world, go to Korea, at which point China sees its chance and jumps in, just like the first time, except this time they're one of the top countries in the world, and we've just edged closer to World War 3.
That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. While the Chinese people might not give a damn about being the biggest or best, I think the Chinese government has been thinking about it for awhile now.
stratego
Trying to be good.
In China you are allowed to protest against the government provided that you get permission from the government first. Sounds crazy, but the US has a similar policy, "Sovereign Immunity." It means that the government can't be sued unless it agrees to get sued.
GrandAdmiral
Deity
10Seven
You are getting ahead of yourself. China's rate of growth is to be expected because it isn't yet fully developed. That does not indicate what the nation will be like when it has caught up with western nations. Once it gets to a certain point that growth rate will slow down, its inevitable. The more developed you get the less room you have to grow. That aside China hasn't really done anything special. A fast growth rate in the boom stage of industrialisation doesn't indicate this. The US had its day as a growing power but they were actually achieving things no one else did in every field. Even the Soviets were innovative as an emerging power. China is instead. trying to do things that have already been done and being dominated by foreign corporations. Fortunatly for Russia and America multinational corporations weren't as ruthlessly efficient when they emerged or Europe would still be running them. Don't disregard the military when it comes to technology. Many technological adavancements have their roots there because it is the best place to test them without having to worry about the limitations of a civilian environment. Much of the technology today even if developed wouldn't be implimented if it weren't for military systems, such as satellites, gis and the internet would have developed much slower. When it comes to this type of technology China has really lagged behind. All their systems are baised on a Russian model but are inferior. The only thing really arparent is that China has a huge growing population that is becoming more of a market for foreign products instead of just assembling them cheaper than Mexico.
You are getting ahead of yourself. China's rate of growth is to be expected because it isn't yet fully developed. That does not indicate what the nation will be like when it has caught up with western nations. Once it gets to a certain point that growth rate will slow down, its inevitable. The more developed you get the less room you have to grow. That aside China hasn't really done anything special. A fast growth rate in the boom stage of industrialisation doesn't indicate this. The US had its day as a growing power but they were actually achieving things no one else did in every field. Even the Soviets were innovative as an emerging power. China is instead. trying to do things that have already been done and being dominated by foreign corporations. Fortunatly for Russia and America multinational corporations weren't as ruthlessly efficient when they emerged or Europe would still be running them. Don't disregard the military when it comes to technology. Many technological adavancements have their roots there because it is the best place to test them without having to worry about the limitations of a civilian environment. Much of the technology today even if developed wouldn't be implimented if it weren't for military systems, such as satellites, gis and the internet would have developed much slower. When it comes to this type of technology China has really lagged behind. All their systems are baised on a Russian model but are inferior. The only thing really arparent is that China has a huge growing population that is becoming more of a market for foreign products instead of just assembling them cheaper than Mexico.
The Commander
Warlord
Yeah, i know about that, but suing the government is one thing, i can understand why they'd want that, otherwise they'd get all kinds of nimrods suing them over trivial things every day.
Not being allowed to protest it the government itself without permission though, that's totally different.
Gogf
Indescribable
If there was a war between China and America, and either side was not immediately wiped out, it would deinfately result in a nuclear war.
Desmond Hawkins
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2002
- Messages
- 9,922
Why do you say that Gogf? It is possible that there would be a stalemate, and an armistice.
Bobo the Ape
Prince
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2004
- Messages
- 506
@Dann
I apologize for giving the impression that China was mediocre. Chinese civilization is the most long lived and impressive of any in history. Perhaps my Seahawks analogy was a bit harsh....let's say the New York Jets then.
My point is that China has always had the potential to become the leading power in the world. For whatever reason they have several times chosen not too. There are a number of reasons for this but as you say that is best left to the history forum.
@Neo
Well I'm an AFC West guy (Broncos) so until they moved to the NFC every year I was bombarded with how they were the team to watch......though given the Broncos recent history I really shouldn't be talking about anyone elses team
@10Seven
umm yeah.....my point was that those things were considered pork in their day. Many of the projects considered pork today will form the backbone of tomorrows military with equally successful results.
And simply claiming a country is "investing in technology" as proof that it will soon become the world leader is even more nonsensical.
So let's see....you use Vietnam as an example of how America would wage war against a large conventional enemy? In Vietnam the US waged a "limited" war under ridiculous rules of engagement. The US never activated its Reserves or even invaded North Vietnam. Instead it waged a political war trying to win the "hearts and minds".
A far better example would be the US-Japan war. In this war the sole purpose was to destroy the other countries industry and ability to make war...there was no concern to how the Japanese felt about the US. This is how a war between the US and China would be conducted.
Anyway, the main point is that the US and China receive and will continue to receive far more benefits from being peaceful trading partners than adversaries. That is why they generally ignore each others unpopular moves (Tibet,Iraq). A more open and industrialised China is good news for the US.
I apologize for giving the impression that China was mediocre. Chinese civilization is the most long lived and impressive of any in history. Perhaps my Seahawks analogy was a bit harsh....let's say the New York Jets then.
My point is that China has always had the potential to become the leading power in the world. For whatever reason they have several times chosen not too. There are a number of reasons for this but as you say that is best left to the history forum.
@Neo
Well I'm an AFC West guy (Broncos) so until they moved to the NFC every year I was bombarded with how they were the team to watch......though given the Broncos recent history I really shouldn't be talking about anyone elses team
@10Seven
umm yeah.....my point was that those things were considered pork in their day. Many of the projects considered pork today will form the backbone of tomorrows military with equally successful results.
And simply claiming a country is "investing in technology" as proof that it will soon become the world leader is even more nonsensical.
So let's see....you use Vietnam as an example of how America would wage war against a large conventional enemy? In Vietnam the US waged a "limited" war under ridiculous rules of engagement. The US never activated its Reserves or even invaded North Vietnam. Instead it waged a political war trying to win the "hearts and minds".
A far better example would be the US-Japan war. In this war the sole purpose was to destroy the other countries industry and ability to make war...there was no concern to how the Japanese felt about the US. This is how a war between the US and China would be conducted.
Anyway, the main point is that the US and China receive and will continue to receive far more benefits from being peaceful trading partners than adversaries. That is why they generally ignore each others unpopular moves (Tibet,Iraq). A more open and industrialised China is good news for the US.
Ebitdadada
Master Baiter
On a somewhat related note about places to fear:
The North Dakotan economy grew 9% last year and the state has a budget surplus!
Fear the North Dakotans !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The North Dakotan economy grew 9% last year and the state has a budget surplus!
Fear the North Dakotans !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dann
Green bug
I understand the bit about the former Soviet Union but what's wrong with Xerxes of Persia?
Yup. And that trait carries over to us overseas Chinese too.
No need for apologies. We're all sensible and mature people merely engaging in verbal exercises here.
I actually have no idea whatsoever about the Seahawks or the Jets. Aaaiiieee!!!Originally posted by Ebitdadada
On a somewhat related note about places to fear:
The North Dakotan economy grew 9% last year and the state has a budget surplus!
Fear the North Dakotans !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
He invaded Greece in the Persian Wars, and despite having legitimate reasons for doing so, the Greeks villainised him because he would have conquered Athens and from there would have ruled all of Greece had he been given a chance of success.