City State being attacked by another Civ

[Possum Pie]

I had 3 envoys in a city state. Egypt attacked it and I went to World Congress to denounce it which they did. There was no way I could protect them without declaring war on Egypt, so I declared war. Egypt meanwhile took the city state. I took an Egyptian city and suddenly everyone in the world was at war with me. My civ icon (Germany/an Iron Cross) appeared over the city state but I couldn't do anything with it or even see it in the city state list. Suddenly they pledged allegiance to me and I took possession of it. Meanwhile I am being whipped by every other civ. How could I have handled that differently? I had 3 envoys and didn't want to just sit and watch them be attacked.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Great question, and welcome to CivFanatics!

Defending one of your favored city-states is a weak point in Civ6 diplomacy. If you have enough envoys to be the suzerain (think boss or ally of the city state), then Egypt would essentially be declaring war on you. If you don't have enough to be suzerain (you're working up to that), then you face the sort of dilemma that you describe.

I believe that the World Congress resolution has two key aspects: 1) it invites the other civs to join in a war against Egypt, for the purpose of 2) only liberating that city state.
Egypt conquered the CS. You declaring on Egypt is fine, but when you captured a *different* Egyptian city, that was more than the WC agreed to. You just became another warmonger.
If you had focused your attention / troops on recapturing the city state, you would have avoided all the other civs declaring on you.
Granted, that's harder if the city state is farther away from your homeland; most likely the Egyptian city you conquered was close by.

Perhaps waiting some turns, to let one of the other AI attack the captured city state and liberate it -- let it be a CS again -- might have worked. Perhaps not, since I haven't seen the other AI do that very often. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that you had many good options.

 

[Possum Pie]

Thanks for the speedy response. Yes, if that is true that is a HUGE weakness in the game. City states are usually pretty helpless and when attacked and overtaken by another civ, there should be some way for its allies to respond. I guess I should have attacked Egypt in that city state, but I was afraid of damaging it to the point that it disappeared. It sucks that Egypt got no consequences for the surprise attack, and I am punished for retaliating. I'm at the point of just restarting b/c the world congress has every civ at war with me and I don't have enough units to fight them off for the 25+ turns that this will continue.

 

[vorlon_mi]

It's possible that Egypt used the World Congress against *you*, once you took their city. "Oh, look! Those evil people took my city! They must be stopped!"

World Congress "emergencies" are a real mixed bag. It's hard (for me) to predict which ones they will support and which ones they will not. In one of my recent games, Ethiopia was my neighbor to the north. They had a decent empire, 8-9 cities, and they decided to roll over a city state on the far northern coast. It was in Ethiopia's back yard, but I would have had to march through ALL of Menelik's territory to get there. I wasn't the suzerain of it (sorry, forgot the name). Another AI did bring up a WC emergency to liberate the CS, but everyone else just yawned. No one signed on. I'm not sure if they viewed Ethiopia as too strong to take on, or the CS was too far away, or the wrong type, or what.
When I declare on someone and take the first city, I've often had my victim try a WC emergency against me. If I'm big enough, sometimes the AI vote "no" because they don't want to take me on. Other times, some AI that I would otherwise be friendly with (though not necessarily "declared friends") will stab me in the back.

If you appeared weak enough, other AI may have joined the emergency *against* you, foregoing the emergency that you asked for.

 

[vorlon_mi]

My civ icon (Germany/an Iron Cross) appeared over the city state but I couldn't do anything with it or even see it in the city state list. Suddenly they pledged allegiance to me and I took possession of it. Meanwhile I am being whipped by every other civ. How could I have handled that differently? I had 3 envoys and didn't want to just sit and watch them be attacked.

Oh, I missed part of this.

This could be a loyalty flip, if you're playing with the Gathering Storm expansion. Egypt conquered the city state, so it disappeared from the city state list.

If they couldn't hold it, that is, generate sufficient loyalty, it will revolt from them. Seeing your icon (usually in red) over the city means that it is likely to revolt and ask to join your civ. When that happens, you should get a dialog box with a choice:
Keep the city or refuse.

If you keep the city, yes, it becomes part of your empire and not a city state any more. Even worse, taking over the CS into your empire goes against what the World Congress emergency was about -- restoring the CS autonomy.

If you refuse, I'm not sure what happens. It might revert to its original city state "owner", since it should have residual loyalty to its original identity. But I've never tested that. If you refuse, I don't think it will go back to being Egyptian.

Just having 3 envoys isn't the key criterion. Having enough envoys to be suze is the key.

 

[Possum Pie]

Yea, I got the choice to keep or refuse and didn't understand it. I kept the cs and it was under my rule. There is SO much in civ 6 that just isn't explained well, or a pop up should alert you to things. I've accidentally noticed that I have 2 envoys just sitting around and no pop up alerted me that I had new envoys. I've forgotten to click on "confirm" with policies and it just closes out without a warning pop up. I LOVE civ 2, I played it 30 years ago and I still play it. The Civ 4-6 I've never finished a game b/c of frustrating little things like this.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

It's cheesy, but if there is a CS I really must keep, I will send 6 units to surround the city center tile so the city cannot be captured. Scouts are best, I usually start with 2 most games anyway. Then I send whatever units are nearest to fill in the holes and decide if I want to build more Scouts to relieve them. I usually play with a mod that gives Walls to CS - so it's a little mini game to watch city bombardment if another Civ attacks my CS. Sometimes you can use terrain or your own city borders to limit access as well.

 

[Possum Pie]

It seems the later Civ games (4-6) really penalize warmonger. In Civ 2, You could build armies, race across continents, and wipe out other civs. Sure, later in the game when Democracy and UN were available, your population could overrule your decisions, but by then it was usually you against maybe 1 or 2 other civs. How can you get around the whole world congress voting to go to war against you in Civ 6? Up until I attacked Egypt, everyone was on good/neutral terms with me.

 

[pokiehl]

It seems the later Civ games (4-6) really penalize warmonger. In Civ 2, You could build armies, race across continents, and wipe out other civs. Sure, later in the game when Democracy and UN were available, your population could overrule your decisions, but by then it was usually you against maybe 1 or 2 other civs. How can you get around the whole world congress voting to go to war against you in Civ 6? Up until I attacked Egypt, everyone was on good/neutral terms with me.

It’s entirely by design. Warmongering is by far the most effective strategy: you gain immense benefits from conquest while your opponents suffer. The diplomatic penalties of conquest are supposed to be a check on this.

 

[Planktonic]

It seems the later Civ games (4-6) really penalize warmonger. In Civ 2, You could build armies, race across continents, and wipe out other civs. Sure, later in the game when Democracy and UN were available, your population could overrule your decisions, but by then it was usually you against maybe 1 or 2 other civs. How can you get around the whole world congress voting to go to war against you in Civ 6? Up until I attacked Egypt, everyone was on good/neutral terms with me.

Actually, you shouldn't be afraid of this. What does it matter if some civ 30 tiles away DOWs you? By the time their units reach you the Emergency will be nearly over anyway. And presumably you have the military to handle the civ you were at war with first anyway. Even if another neighbor gets involved, the units usually dribble in one by one and can be picked off. By far the biggest threat is usually a previously neutral city state with a large military at your doorstep that suddenly decides to attack you in force since it is now at war with you. That can present a real problem. O/w most Emergencies can actually benefit you, since they raise the loyalty of a captured city +20 and give you a free +4 Era score when you typically win out.

 

[vorlon_mi]

It seems the later Civ games (4-6) really penalize warmonger. In Civ 2, You could build armies, race across continents, and wipe out other civs. Sure, later in the game when Democracy and UN were available, your population could overrule your decisions, but by then it was usually you against maybe 1 or 2 other civs. How can you get around the whole world congress voting to go to war against you in Civ 6? Up until I attacked Egypt, everyone was on good/neutral terms with me.

I noticed a significant difference between Civ3 and Civ4 (which largely reward warmongering) and Civ5 (where the penalties were significant). That's one of the reasons why I rarely play Civ5 any more. To be fair, Civ2 only had two victory conditions: kill everyone else or launch the spaceship. The game could scarcely penalize fighting a war, since that was key to one of the VC's.

Other than emergencies -- which tend to be more rare than what you've see so far -- Civ6 gives you some tools to offset the penalties of warmongering. Grievances eventually fade away. As you learn what other leaders agendas are, you may be able to fulfill them and get them to friendly. Several players here have observed that it's possible to become "declared friends" with some AI civs on the first few turns after you meet them; declared friends are blocked from declaring war on you, in many cases.

Civ6 asks the player to consider more factors before declaring war than Civ2 did. Look at the map, see where the cities are and how quickly you can move your troops there. Do the AI cities have walls? If so, do you have siege units or battering rams to counter that? Are there other neighbors who could invade you? Have you garrisoned your cities, where they are vulnerable? What's your military strength overall, since units take longer to build in Civ6 than some other games in the franchise.

TL;DR - it's more complex now.

 

[Possum Pie]

Makes sense, but it was no easy task even in Civ 2 to conquer all other civs. Your cities got unrest, the defense of a city was far stronger than the units you had to waste to get it, it was a challenge.

I noticed a significant difference between Civ3 and Civ4 (which largely reward warmongering) and Civ5 (where the penalties were significant). That's one of the reasons why I rarely play Civ5 any more. To be fair, Civ2 only had two victory conditions: kill everyone else or launch the spaceship. The game could scarcely penalize fighting a war, since that was key to one of the VC's.

Other than emergencies -- which tend to be more rare than what you've see so far -- Civ6 gives you some tools to offset the penalties of warmongering. Grievances eventually fade away. As you learn what other leaders agendas are, you may be able to fulfill them and get them to friendly. Several players here have observed that it's possible to become "declared friends" with some AI civs on the first few turns after you meet them; declared friends are blocked from declaring war on you, in many cases.

Civ6 asks the player to consider more factors before declaring war than Civ2 did. Look at the map, see where the cities are and how quickly you can move your troops there. Do the AI cities have walls? If so, do you have siege units or battering rams to counter that? Are there other neighbors who could invade you? Have you garrisoned your cities, where they are vulnerable? What's your military strength overall, since units take longer to build in Civ6 than some other games in the franchise.

TL;DR - it's more complex now.

I started the game with the intent of eventually taking over other civs, but did nothing the first 100+ turns to be aggressive. I researched military, kept good relations with everyone, and had lots of envoys in city states. Like I said, it was my fault b/c when Egypt attacked a cs that I had 3 envoys in, I wanted to help. Unfortunately I didn't know that I couldn't justifiably attack an Egyptian city in response to their aggression. It looks like you have to sit back and wait for the cs to fall, then go in and retake it yourself. I gave up on that game and restarted. I wasted 25 turns defending myself from everyone else.

I'm learning that the other annoyance in Civ 6 is barbarian quadririmes. Holy cow! they spawn like rabbits around my cities/military districts and kill almost everything with 2-3 hits. I bombard them from my military district but as fast as I can kill one, 2 more approach. My nearest shoreline city is like 20 tiles away and I bought a quadrireme myself but it will take forever to reach the conflict b/c I don't have the ability to go more than 2 tiles from shore yet. The rest of the land barbarians are fair in a fight, but the quadriremes are heavily weighted against land units.

Speaking of military, where do you store your military units when not fighting anyone? Ive got a ton of units just wandering around my civ. In Civ 2 you could store an unlimited number of units in each city but in Civ 6 it just kicks out the unit and replaces it with another. That isn't much like real life, Militarys have organized locations to be in between wars.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I'm learning that the other annoyance in Civ 6 is barbarian quadririmes. Holy cow! they spawn like rabbits around my cities/military districts and kill almost everything with 2-3 hits. I bombard them from my military district but as fast as I can kill one, 2 more approach. My nearest shoreline city is like 20 tiles away and I bought a quadrireme myself but it will take forever to reach the conflict b/c I don't have the ability to go more than 2 tiles from shore yet. The rest of the land barbarians are fair in a fight, but the quadriremes are heavily weighted against land units.

Speaking of military, where do you store your military units when not fighting anyone? Ive got a ton of units just wandering around my civ. In Civ 2 you could store an unlimited number of units in each city but in Civ 6 it just kicks out the unit and replaces it with another. That isn't much like real life, Militarys have organized locations to be in between wars.

Barbarians: Even on lower difficulties, the barbarians are much harder to deal with in Civ6 than they were in earlier games. Many good players here recommend slingers as an early build, so that you can chase down and kill the barbarian scouts. If the scout doesn't make it back to camp, the barb spawn rate is slower. Yes, I too have been annoyed with barb boats. I've hit them with archers, once I get them, but coastal cities are vulnerable.

Unit Stacking: Civ5 brought us "one unit per tile", also known as 1UPT, and Civ6 continues to use it. Literally, one unit in a city as its garrison and one military unit per hex. "Storing" them is not an option; one keeps them deployed in the countryside. As @Nigel_Tufnel2 wrote, one can station them in the 6 tiles around a city, to prevent it from being captured. A tile may have one military and one civilian (and one religious) unit in it, until you've researched the techs to build corps and armies.
In Civ3 and Civ4, one would build large stacks of units in a single tile -- affectionately known as a "stack of doom." In Civ2, stacking was allowed but risky, since if any unit in the stack died, the whole stack died. In Civ5 and Civ6, one builds a "carpet of doom", which is much more laborious to move across the map.

 

[Possum Pie]

Thanks. Yes there must be a "happy medium" such as a limited number of units able to be stacked per tile. In real life you couldn't have 12 units on one small section of a battlefield, killing one wouldn't kill all, and a country's army wouldn't be hanging out in districts around a city. I hope for Civ 7 that barracks could house a city's whole troop population, limited stacking would be allowed such that a defensive unit and an offensive unit could share a tile. That is more realistic. I tend to go for 2 scouts early, but I may start putting a slinger out there too. Yes, I too have felt the frustration of chasing a barb. scout across the map as they run back to tell everyone of my city. Seems they always have a head start and can move more tiles/turn than most other units, but I feel that that adds a nice challenge early in the game.

Civ 6 is a big learning curve for me. I've played every civ game since Civ 2 way back in 1998 and I find that each one has good and bad points. I loved Leonard Nimoy in Civ 4, but got frustrated at the AI. Civ 6 has SO many small things to micromanage, it requires a slow gameplay to read all of the things that affect your strategy. Also a casual click on the c.s. icon shows that I have 2 envoys that I haven't placed yet...Either there is no popup for something, or so many other popups all come at the same time that things get missed. I'm at turn 200 of this current game. I've owned it since it came out and quit every game before the game ended. I thought I'd give it one more try. Everyone on this forum has helped me understand some of the things I'm doing wrong, so thanks!

 

[Possum Pie]

I need some help. I want Musket men but have no niter. Korea and China have nitre and both agreed to make a deal with me for resources/cash. I got 10 from each b/c I needed 20 to make the musket men. After several turns, musket men is still greyed out b/c it says I still need 20 niter. What is wrong?

 

[Planktonic]

You need 20 niter per musketman. Do you have any melee units already being produced? If so, when the original 20 of niter became available, the production for that melee unit probably automatically changed to a musketman. To produce another one you'll need 20 more niter.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

(I always trade for 21 of a Strategic Resource if I have none because you will need one extra for healing purposes for some reason!)

 

[Possum Pie]

I solved it by finding a niter on the edge of a desert and building a city beside it. BUT that still doesn't answer my question about why I got nothing from China and Korea when I made a deal with them. I had no gunpowder units at that time so after the deal for 20 niter was made, I should have been able to build 1 musketman. Glitch/bug perhaps...