Civ Continuity - A Modest Proposal

NoCure

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
18
Long-ish post, so here's the TL;DR version:
1. Get rid of Attributes. Create a History tab in the Policies/Government section that is populated by permanent bonuses that are the result of choices you make in situations where you'd normally be awarded an attribute point.
2. Legacy Points allow you to buy certain parts of your prior Civilization(s) to carry forward into the next Age
3. Create new names and narratives to better connect your Civs as they evolve through the Ages

Longer Version:
Overall, I like Civ 7, and I like the ideas that the developers tried out with different Ages and the evolution of Civilizations through time.
I've seen people debating how it they could allow players to use a single Civ the whole game, and I agree with many - the simplest option is to just let players hold onto Antiquity Civs into the Exploration Age, and Antiquity and Exploration Civs into the Modern Age. People have suggested generic bonuses for Modern and Exploration Civs if you want to play them earlier, but this left me asking, "what do players want?" Do they want to keep on playing Egypt until the Space Race (seems easy to manage)? Or do they want to play American in 4000 BCE (much harder, unless you simply delay all bonuses to the Modern Age, and also ahistorical in a challenging way)?
Because I really, really like the idea behind the evolution of Civs into new ones, and the Age transition ideas, I tried to think of a way to make it feel more like you are playing one Civ (that changes, evolves, morphs) all the way through. Here's what I came up with:

1. Get rid of Attributes. These never made any sense anyways. Why should something your Civilization does give bonuses to you as a ruler, which in turn, makes your Warehouses better, or your troops cheaper)? I think this was an awkward workaround, since if your Civ got bonuses, you'd lose them with the Age transition, so they had to be tagged to your leader.
Instead of Attributes, create a new History tab in the Policies/Government section that gets updated whenever events trigger that would normally give you an Attribute point. Here's an example.
You defeat a hostile Independent Power. You are given a choice: +1 War Support or +3 combat strength against Independent Powers (same as the first rung of the Militaristic Attribute tree). Depending on what you choose, the History tab now has a new entry:
In 2880 BCE, the Roman's early victory over the Kushite people taught them the ways of warfare. +1 War Support
or
In 2880 BCE, the Romans clashed with hostile neighboring tribes. Their eventual victory led to further victories against other hostile neighbors. +3 Strength against Independent Powers
As you accumulate more of these, it would create a narrative history of your empire that would be similar to the end-of-the-game history review from prior Civ games.

2. Legacy Points don't give Attribute Points. They can give other bonuses (Golden Age Academies, etc.), but mostly they allow you to pay to bring aspects of your prior Civilizations into the new Age. Notably, these include Traditions.
Example: For 2 Science and 2 Economic Legacy Points, the Mayan Unique Quarter will provide 15% (instead of 5%) of the science cost in production upon completion of a Science breakthrough. For 1 Science and 1 Culture/Diplomacy Legacy Point, you can keep the Mayan Calendar Round bonus (15% of science/culture on breakthroughs). For 1 Militaristic/Expansionist Legacy Point, you can keep the Pet Kot tradition. For 1 Science Legacy Point, you can keep the +1 Science adjacency for vegetated terrain for the Palace.
The idea here is that the more influential and successful your civilization is, the more that specific legacy will continue as it changes into another. When you get to the Modern Age (and beyond, if the rumors hold true), you have to make a choice - do you hold fast to the ancient roots of your people, or move on and keep mostly the legacies of the Exploration Age?

3. Narrative. Narrative, narrative, narrative. The scene where we transition from one Civ to another should mention BOTH Civs (this isn't an insane number of permutations, devs), and mention the legacies you purchased (see above). You can have some flavor text based on real history (eg Romans into Spain), and have fun with combinations that are ahistorical ("Few would have expected the land-based empire of the Han to take to the seas as the Hawaiians"). Give the player the option to rename their cities with combination names ("Puerto Adulis"), keep the old, or go new. Refer to the new civilization as the Aksum-Spanish Empire.

Thoughts? I am worried that the devs, trying to please everyone, will end up watering down the Age and Civ-switching mechanics, which are the real basis for this iteration of Civ.
 
Actually I really like that! I usually choose a successor civ that has some link historically or geographically to its predecessor and thus write the narrative in my head, but it would be lovely to have a narrative history in the game. Anything which brings a tad more continuity and smoothness to the civ switching seems a good idea. I really like the civ switching - you are still building an empire to stand the test of time, but it has phases of history which carry a link to the past. I too am concerned that the devs will be pressured into retrofitting a 'classic civ' mode into the game, taking time and treasure that would be better spent further developing the game as it is.
 
Actually I really like that! I usually choose a successor civ that has some link historically or geographically to its predecessor and thus write the narrative in my head, but it would be lovely to have a narrative history in the game. Anything which brings a tad more continuity and smoothness to the civ switching seems a good idea. I really like the civ switching - you are still building an empire to stand the test of time, but it has phases of history which carry a link to the past. I too am concerned that the devs will be pressured into retrofitting a 'classic civ' mode into the game, taking time and treasure that would be better spent further developing the game as it is.
I'd also like the History tab and the transition screen to incorporate the Crises. In my head canon, the Crises are the catalyst for the shift between one civ and the next, and the missing years between Ages are the times spent recovering and rebuilding from the Crises. So it would be nice if the History read something like:

"230 BCE - 800 AD Beset by invaders, warring tribes and internal conflict, the Aksumite Empire began to crumble. Fortunately, through skilled leadership, they were able to beat back the invaders and rebuild their burning cities, rejoining the world stage as the Abbasid Kingdom."
+1 Level on All Commanders

This would incorporate the transition and give a bonus for Crisis handling.
 
I'd also like the History tab and the transition screen to incorporate the Crises. In my head canon, the Crises are the catalyst for the shift between one civ and the next, and the missing years between Ages are the times spent recovering and rebuilding from the Crises. So it would be nice if the History read something like:

"230 BCE - 800 AD Beset by invaders, warring tribes and internal conflict, the Aksumite Empire began to crumble. Fortunately, through skilled leadership, they were able to beat back the invaders and rebuild their burning cities, rejoining the world stage as the Abbasid Kingdom."
+1 Level on All Commanders

This would incorporate the transition and give a bonus for Crisis handling.
There already are bonuses for handling the Crisis (in terms of additional Legacy options). It would be good if those were both expanded and better shown (History tab should be used a lot more)
 
There already are bonuses for handling the Crisis (in terms of additional Legacy options). It would be good if those were both expanded and better shown (History tab should be used a lot more)
Totally agree. I find the current bonuses very underwhelming, both in terms of narrative and gameplay. I'd additionally like to see some kind of measure of how you handled the crisis - not just "did you survive", but did you lose cities to unhappiness, did you cure the plague several times etc. And for this to translate into narrative and gameplay bonuses.
 
Long-ish post, so here's the TL;DR version:
1. Get rid of Attributes. Create a History tab in the Policies/Government section that is populated by permanent bonuses that are the result of choices you make in situations where you'd normally be awarded an attribute point.
2. Legacy Points allow you to buy certain parts of your prior Civilization(s) to carry forward into the next Age
3. Create new names and narratives to better connect your Civs as they evolve through the Ages

Longer Version:
Overall, I like Civ 7, and I like the ideas that the developers tried out with different Ages and the evolution of Civilizations through time.
I've seen people debating how it they could allow players to use a single Civ the whole game, and I agree with many - the simplest option is to just let players hold onto Antiquity Civs into the Exploration Age, and Antiquity and Exploration Civs into the Modern Age. People have suggested generic bonuses for Modern and Exploration Civs if you want to play them earlier, but this left me asking, "what do players want?" Do they want to keep on playing Egypt until the Space Race (seems easy to manage)? Or do they want to play American in 4000 BCE (much harder, unless you simply delay all bonuses to the Modern Age, and also ahistorical in a challenging way)?
Because I really, really like the idea behind the evolution of Civs into new ones, and the Age transition ideas, I tried to think of a way to make it feel more like you are playing one Civ (that changes, evolves, morphs) all the way through. Here's what I came up with:

1. Get rid of Attributes. These never made any sense anyways. Why should something your Civilization does give bonuses to you as a ruler, which in turn, makes your Warehouses better, or your troops cheaper)? I think this was an awkward workaround, since if your Civ got bonuses, you'd lose them with the Age transition, so they had to be tagged to your leader.
Instead of Attributes, create a new History tab in the Policies/Government section that gets updated whenever events trigger that would normally give you an Attribute point. Here's an example.
You defeat a hostile Independent Power. You are given a choice: +1 War Support or +3 combat strength against Independent Powers (same as the first rung of the Militaristic Attribute tree). Depending on what you choose, the History tab now has a new entry:
In 2880 BCE, the Roman's early victory over the Kushite people taught them the ways of warfare. +1 War Support
or
In 2880 BCE, the Romans clashed with hostile neighboring tribes. Their eventual victory led to further victories against other hostile neighbors. +3 Strength against Independent Powers
As you accumulate more of these, it would create a narrative history of your empire that would be similar to the end-of-the-game history review from prior Civ games.

2. Legacy Points don't give Attribute Points. They can give other bonuses (Golden Age Academies, etc.), but mostly they allow you to pay to bring aspects of your prior Civilizations into the new Age. Notably, these include Traditions.
Example: For 2 Science and 2 Economic Legacy Points, the Mayan Unique Quarter will provide 15% (instead of 5%) of the science cost in production upon completion of a Science breakthrough. For 1 Science and 1 Culture/Diplomacy Legacy Point, you can keep the Mayan Calendar Round bonus (15% of science/culture on breakthroughs). For 1 Militaristic/Expansionist Legacy Point, you can keep the Pet Kot tradition. For 1 Science Legacy Point, you can keep the +1 Science adjacency for vegetated terrain for the Palace.
The idea here is that the more influential and successful your civilization is, the more that specific legacy will continue as it changes into another. When you get to the Modern Age (and beyond, if the rumors hold true), you have to make a choice - do you hold fast to the ancient roots of your people, or move on and keep mostly the legacies of the Exploration Age?

3. Narrative. Narrative, narrative, narrative. The scene where we transition from one Civ to another should mention BOTH Civs (this isn't an insane number of permutations, devs), and mention the legacies you purchased (see above). You can have some flavor text based on real history (eg Romans into Spain), and have fun with combinations that are ahistorical ("Few would have expected the land-based empire of the Han to take to the seas as the Hawaiians"). Give the player the option to rename their cities with combination names ("Puerto Adulis"), keep the old, or go new. Refer to the new civilization as the Aksum-Spanish Empire.

Thoughts? I am worried that the devs, trying to please everyone, will end up watering down the Age and Civ-switching mechanics, which are the real basis for this iteration of Civ.
As I have seen in the mile matches and an artificial simulation penalized by an artificial intelligence still not strong, which should simulate the most possible crises revolutions, explorations, wars and events : from an event to for example how much chance could you simulate? How much is it possible to simulate the waves of a stone thrown into a lake?
 
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