GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
Same here. That means the Vice President would become Vice Chancellor
.
Civ3 Game of Republic?
- Thread starter Chieftess
- Start date
Same here. That means the Vice President would become Vice Chancellor
.
Falcon02
General
Ehecatl, I still must disagree with you. Athens was a Democracy, though not in the Purest sence. It's DEFINATELY not a republic cause the citizens didn't vote for others to represent them.
The City-States were countries to them selves.. Athens was one of these. Athens wasn't divided into city-states as you say.. however they held GREAT influence over many other city states. (Long story I won't go into, esp. cause I'd have to get out referance material).
Anyway, citizenry was limited because of the standards of the time, and taking that into concideration it was a Pure Democracy for the time, to have a foreigner, a slave, or a woman voting on government issues was rediculous.
Foreigners had no business in their affairs (even after settling there for a long time, they were still of foreign origins as far as they were concerned.) Slaves aren't given a proper education, I think they also normally had foreign origins, which excluded them from the previous condition (IIRC they didn't care how many generations you resided there you were still a foreigner and couldn't participate in government). Women are for keeping the house and breeding they can't understand the complex affairs of state. (remember this is the Ancient view point, not mine).
So yeah, it isn't a true democracy from a modern view point, concidering how modern society (esp. western) frowns upon slavery and discrimination against women, not to mention nearly all (if not all) modern nations have some naturalization laws which allow foreigners to become citizens.
Ohh and BTW: while the Athenians basically locked their women inside for house work and the such, Spartan women exercised regularly and even took over the government while the men were away fighting (however this is a rare exception in the Ancient world). The spartans were very war like. There's records (on pottery, in Ancient texts, on a sheild or something) from a spartan Mother which discribed how she told her son to "Either come home carrying your sheild, or being carried on it" In other words, Come back victorious from fighting, or come back dead from battle. VERY rough life those Spartans led.
The City-States were countries to them selves.. Athens was one of these. Athens wasn't divided into city-states as you say.. however they held GREAT influence over many other city states. (Long story I won't go into, esp. cause I'd have to get out referance material).
Anyway, citizenry was limited because of the standards of the time, and taking that into concideration it was a Pure Democracy for the time, to have a foreigner, a slave, or a woman voting on government issues was rediculous.
Foreigners had no business in their affairs (even after settling there for a long time, they were still of foreign origins as far as they were concerned.) Slaves aren't given a proper education, I think they also normally had foreign origins, which excluded them from the previous condition (IIRC they didn't care how many generations you resided there you were still a foreigner and couldn't participate in government). Women are for keeping the house and breeding they can't understand the complex affairs of state. (remember this is the Ancient view point, not mine).
So yeah, it isn't a true democracy from a modern view point, concidering how modern society (esp. western) frowns upon slavery and discrimination against women, not to mention nearly all (if not all) modern nations have some naturalization laws which allow foreigners to become citizens.
Ohh and BTW: while the Athenians basically locked their women inside for house work and the such, Spartan women exercised regularly and even took over the government while the men were away fighting (however this is a rare exception in the Ancient world). The spartans were very war like. There's records (on pottery, in Ancient texts, on a sheild or something) from a spartan Mother which discribed how she told her son to "Either come home carrying your sheild, or being carried on it" In other words, Come back victorious from fighting, or come back dead from battle. VERY rough life those Spartans led.
disorganizer
Deity
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to athens: at that time women and slaves were not treated as citizens. and yes, it was a democracy as all citizens were allowed to vote...
to republic:
maybe a federal rebublic would suit best, so that the provinces will get more freedom of choice.
the provinces will get full controll of all inner provincial matters, the national government will only controll international matters and cross-provincial matters.
the national government can implement rules thru congress, but the provincial senate will have to ratify them ;-)
seem like a concept we could change this game to, honestly. we are not too far away from it. just that in provincial matters, the governors will edict things with no real citizens discussion taking place, but this is a personal problem of our citizens.
to republic:
maybe a federal rebublic would suit best, so that the provinces will get more freedom of choice.
the provinces will get full controll of all inner provincial matters, the national government will only controll international matters and cross-provincial matters.
the national government can implement rules thru congress, but the provincial senate will have to ratify them ;-)
seem like a concept we could change this game to, honestly. we are not too far away from it. just that in provincial matters, the governors will edict things with no real citizens discussion taking place, but this is a personal problem of our citizens.
disorganizer
Deity
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Excerpt from the german constitution:
You see even constitutions in real live mix the definitions here.
A republic is rule of the people by the people. This means representants are elected and decide.
A federal republic is a republic with locally partly independent areas (provinces), forming an additional body for the state. The areas make local rules, which can be overridden by national rules.
A democracy is the rule of the people. In fact, there is no democracy today. Look at the DyP mod, where the real governmental types are implemented. Democracy was there before republic. The federal republic is the "most modern" kind of government. The problem what was received with a true democracy in ancient ages was the time taken for decission was too long. Thats why the Republic was invented.
Now to our game:
What we have now is clearly a republic.
We elect people, they decide for us. Thats fact. The only advantage the demogame has is that we have democratic (?) poll-rules. But we have almost no measure for leaders not discussing and publically polling their decissions.
As we saw in the last terms, almost no leader decission was polled about.
We do not have a federal republic, because we have almost no local politics in our game. We have provinces make build queues, but thats it. We are on the way to federal republic though, as maybe someday in future we will allow local elections and local laws. The senate was a first step to it.
A true democracy would try to poll almost all decissions on the pupulace. Only inevitable things would be decided by the president.
I really hope your republic game will get us a full federal republic with full local politics.
But that arises another question:
Why dont we implement it in here? It will be almost the same, just that we get local politics.
You see even constitutions in real live mix the definitions here.
A republic is rule of the people by the people. This means representants are elected and decide.
A federal republic is a republic with locally partly independent areas (provinces), forming an additional body for the state. The areas make local rules, which can be overridden by national rules.
A democracy is the rule of the people. In fact, there is no democracy today. Look at the DyP mod, where the real governmental types are implemented. Democracy was there before republic. The federal republic is the "most modern" kind of government. The problem what was received with a true democracy in ancient ages was the time taken for decission was too long. Thats why the Republic was invented.
Now to our game:
What we have now is clearly a republic.
We elect people, they decide for us. Thats fact. The only advantage the demogame has is that we have democratic (?) poll-rules. But we have almost no measure for leaders not discussing and publically polling their decissions.
As we saw in the last terms, almost no leader decission was polled about.
We do not have a federal republic, because we have almost no local politics in our game. We have provinces make build queues, but thats it. We are on the way to federal republic though, as maybe someday in future we will allow local elections and local laws. The senate was a first step to it.
A true democracy would try to poll almost all decissions on the pupulace. Only inevitable things would be decided by the president.
I really hope your republic game will get us a full federal republic with full local politics.
But that arises another question:
Why dont we implement it in here? It will be almost the same, just that we get local politics.
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
Disorganizer, I must disagree with you. Our Game of Democracy is a true democracy. In democracies, by definition, the people have direct control of our laws. Even though we have officials that make decisions on the game, they must act to the will of the people. If the trade leader doesn't want to sell spices to a certain civ, but the citizenry do, he must comply. In republics, the representives of the people are by no means required to act in the interest of their constituents, except in fear of the next election.
disorganizer
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No, its not a democracy. Over 50% of all decission during the last game had been
a) decided in the dark room and not being brought out in the light of citizen discussion nor to a poll
b) decided at the chat by the leaders
c) being decided in the department thread but never brought up for a poll
most of the polls we had were on rules and administrational issues, and thats the only point were we are democratic. a democracy also includes all EXECUTIVE decissions being brought to citizen decission, not only the LEGISLATIVE decission.
a good example is switzerland, where, as far as i know, most of the laws need citizen approval. but still, it is a republic there!
a) decided in the dark room and not being brought out in the light of citizen discussion nor to a poll
b) decided at the chat by the leaders
c) being decided in the department thread but never brought up for a poll
most of the polls we had were on rules and administrational issues, and thats the only point were we are democratic. a democracy also includes all EXECUTIVE decissions being brought to citizen decission, not only the LEGISLATIVE decission.
a good example is switzerland, where, as far as i know, most of the laws need citizen approval. but still, it is a republic there!
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
On the contrary, what major decisions where made in the turn chat? During term 4, we stopped chats early for wars. We put off a chat because of forum outage. I know I've only been here a little bit, but you have to agree that during terms four and five, things have been fairly citizen involved. The last few changes to the CoL and CoS has been well discussed, along with the newly passed constitutional amendment. The recent flood of mayors brought on by Almightyjosh also represents the continuing involvement of citizens in our legislative process.
Therefore, my arguement remains that the citizenry in this demogame remain the controlling force of the government. Their contol of all game actions continues to make this a democracy.
Therefore, my arguement remains that the citizenry in this demogame remain the controlling force of the government. Their contol of all game actions continues to make this a democracy.
disorganizer
Deity
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octavian: i dont talk about law-changes here. i talk about ingame decissions. our rate of in game decissions being polled is pretty low.
i do not doubt we handle rule-changes democratically, but thats not all (in fact, this should not even be part of the game, only a side effect. but as some see this as major part its ok with me).
i do not doubt we handle rule-changes democratically, but thats not all (in fact, this should not even be part of the game, only a side effect. but as some see this as major part its ok with me).
