CivPedia Thread

[arkham4269]

"My Lady, I regret to inform you that vessels under my command have been decisively defeated by the Calibim fleat in the Aduro Straights. In brief, my lady, while we had numerical superiority in numbers of galleys backed by our mighty quinqueremes, the unusually strong winds of the day enabled the Calibim galleass line to flank us. In attempting to maneuver away from the terrible fire of their broadsides, our forces became unorganized thus allowing the Calibim follow-on forces of triremes to defeat us in detail. Despite the bravery of the men you entrusted to me, we were unable to to inflict any serious damage to the enemy fleet and only through the strength of faith in our Risen Emperor and a change in the wind were we able to extract as many ships as we did."

Initial report of the Battle of Aduro Straights to Lady Korinna the Red from Admiral Quintus Pleminius

HISTORY: Like so many intermediary designs, the galleass is a odd mix of old technology with a hint of what is to come. While swifter than galleys and triremes, they still were tied to the shore and in fact worked better in the calmer waters of inland seas. The main strength of the galleass was its ability to fire punishing broadsides, making it difficult for the early ships to close without taking serious damage in the process. This in addition to its superior sails made the galleass a feared vessel for many years to finally replaced by the frigate design.

 

[arkham4269]

"Tis bad enough worrying about their speed. Damn me if I can ken how even that many rowers can move a ship that size so quickly. Worse is how that size and weight makes their rams even more powerful. Yet worrying over how not to get your ship split into so much kindling is made so much worse in having to listen to their fanatical marines screaming their blasphemous chants to their Emperor and knowing what those bastards will do to you and your crew if they board. I'd rather feed the Aifons before I'd be a galley slave to those half-dead wights."

Illian trireme captain Ulrik Svensgaard over grog at the Dancing Sea Turtle tavern

HISTORY: The Scion quinqueremes were a logical design that favored the Scions belief in force of arms bolstered by their fanatical faith in their Risen Emperor. Far larger than the standard trireme, the quinquereme carried a total crew of 300, having 90 oars in each side, and 30-strong files of oarsmen. Additionally it would also carry a marine detachment of 70 to 120, giving a total complement of about 400. Lanun Admiral Polybian was explicit in calling the quinquereme superior as a warship to the old trireme as well as that the heavier "five" performed better than the "three" triremes in heavy weather.

 

[arkham4269]

(In addition to current Entry)

"You fool, you are one of Halfmorn's breed now! Think man! You don't know how you came to this barn, why your clothes are torn and bloodied or how all this livestock was killed. And look were you awoken; you think you just found that a boy's arm while out carousing with your squad mates? For the love I do bear for you, go. Even if I had the silver to do it, I could not kill my own brother. Go before the night falls again and may Kilmorph have mercy upon your soul."

Kuriotate under-captain Talarian Vost to his brother after the Battle of Umbrawood

 

[arkham4269]

"In meditation, effort must be applied in a direction opposite to what we are used to. Our effort must be to relax ever more deeply. When we relax so deeply that we are able to internalize the energy of the senses, the mind becomes focused and a tremendous flow of energy is awakened.... Meditation is a continuous process, and can be said to have three stages: relaxation, internalization, and expansion. Through these processes we learn how to be one with ourselves and with Erebus. To one so centered, one can walk unseen, unheard, unnoticed."

Sidar mystic Hadar Tzadkiel on meditation

HISTORY: Mortals always wish for more time, but to an immortal, eternity is fraught with a great danger: boredom. Thus the early Sidar learned that it was critical to be one with ones self, to seek out inner strength and purpose so that the years ahead would always have meaning even if it was the daily appreciation of small things. This discipline gave unexpected fruit in that the Sidar became patient, learned in the ways of unmoving and silence making them the masters of the hidden.

My Notes: Adapted from excerpts of John Novak's: How to Meditate: A Step-by-Step Guide to the Art and Science of Meditation

 

[arkham4269]

"Winter is roaming across the land
Alone are we, our dwarvish band.
What shall save us in this white hell
Who shall save us from these creatures fell?
In a cave protection was to be found
To rest for a time and go to ground
Upon us cold and weary folk came Goibniu
With a riddle for us to think and chew
"Why ask for help when help is here"
"Under hill and beneath mountain weyrs"
"When found this helper can be bought
With sweat of thews and finely wrought"
"Then with newly forged helper in hand
"Khazard warriors shall rule this land!"

The Riddle of Goibniu, early Khazad prayer per "Words to Our Gods" by Elohim scholar Kadisha Tadi.

HISTORY: The Gods War and subsequent Age of Winter cast down the peoples of Erebus to a nadir that is hard to comprehend. To think that the mighty Dwarves would be brought so low as to lose faith in stone and steel. Yet this did come to pass as the fragments of the one mighty Dwarvish nation wandered in despair. Yet as the ancestors of the Khazad sheltered in a cave, Goibniu took pity on them and whispered His riddle to the weary dwarves to hearten them and remind them that their salvation was always found in the rocks and with their hammers on the forge.

My Notes: In looking at this UB I felt it needs a name change. In Orbis, I see the Pagan Temple being the early beliefs before the main line religions come into being. So if that is true, why do the Khazard have a cave to Kilmorph before the RoK is founded? Doesn't seem in keeping with the history. So in doing a little research we find that Goibniu is just the Welsh version of Weyland/Volundr so He's the craftsman deity to Kilmorph's Earth. So I'm thinking that after the God War/Age of Winter you have once proud people totally down in out. Plus I'm sure a lot of them feel betrayed by the Gods. I mean even Briget was thrown for a loop by Bhial's fall. So these weary (and cold!) dwarves disheartened and at their ropes end. So Goibniu the Smith (as it were) sees a chance to give them a nudge to get them back on track; get them back to the forge in a sense. Knowing that to make weapons, the dwarves will need bronze, iron and mithril, Goibniu also knows He is also helping the dwarves back to the worship of His mistress Kilmorph.

Or that's how I see it.

 

[arkham4269]

"Which way to the library? My good man, we Elohim do not have mere libraries. Those are just buildings to house books and scrolls. What good does it do you there? No, my good sir, our archives are so much more! Centers of learning and debate, where one can stretch your mind and not just sit around reading what others have already written. Come I shall show you what any library should aspire to."

Elohim city guardsmen Nikon Hypatos to a visiting Malikim scribe

HISTORY: To many, knowledge is something written down. Committed to paper, this knowledge is respected but it also becomes static and unmoving. To the Elohim, knowledge is a living and breathing thing. Writing down their thoughts and discoveries just to stick them on a shelf is anathema to Elohim scribes, poets and philosophers. So instead of quiet libraries found elsewhere in Erebus, the Elohim archives are often a bustle of activities with lively debates and experiments going on all the time. Part coffee house, part laboratory and part debate hall, the archives are a vital part of the Elohim social and scholarly scene.

 

[arkham4269]

"As the sun reaches its zenith, here we stand under the open sky. How different then the cool semi-darkness of the forest. Here we hear but the birds and not the constantly rustle of the woods. Why are we here? Why after all these months of teaching you the skills of the woods, the sounds, the smells and the dangers? We are here because it is a center point. Everything has a center point; a place where it is quiet and one is at peace. This quiet, this grove, is what you must learn before you can truly be a master of beasts. Because it is learning this quiet center that will allow you to track without thought, wait in ambush without boredom and track without thought, only through the various smells and sounds just 'appearing' in your mind. The forests are never truly silent, but in the quiet of your center you will be able to sort through a find what others would say is untraceable."

Faun Elder Onondaga Wyandot before his class of aspirant Battlemasters

HISTORY: A forest is like the sea, a vast verdant blanket of life with it's own sounds and rhythms. Tracking and taming this forest is often a solitary existence where often one does not see aught but animals for many moons. Yet for these forest walkers, a grove is a place of community, a place to walk out from under the tree canopy and see the stars and feel the wind without it being first tasted by the trees. In coming together in the open, the forest born accept the antithesis of their lives and know it makes their amazing skills possible.

My Notes: Okay, this one was hard. How you all like it. I'm going to take a break and kill some zombies now. (sigh) How come Hunters always attack when I'm reloading?

 

[Jabie]

Since my wife can't have kids, I'll take what I can for my 'immortality' - Ian Alexander, Born 1966, Died 2076 - One hell of a Civlopedia Writer!

I think I asked this before, but while many of these entries are very Orbis specific, are any of these sucked up into other mods like FF? I would think a few of the entries I've seen and a few I've written would apply for almost any FfH mod.

Sorry to hear about your wife.

I think applying entires to FfH / FF is a question for Kael / Vehem. My take would be to write shared components so that they could be used in other mods, but not to have any expectations that they will be used.

Also, can we get a sketch about the Mechanos' and their 'machine spirits' - I've been writing them as 19th Century Nature Philosophers who want to pick apart nature and all that. Very Victorian England in that which fits the Steampunk motiff. However, I've read 'pedia entries and things about the spirit of the machines and I want to know more about them.

I don't know what the official line is. The angle I took in the pedia entries I wrote was that many of the machine spirits were born from guilt when Baranaxus created the Ice Golems in Age of Ice. Having seen the world turned to ice and the gods fail to save it, the machine spirits have determined to eliminate the worship of gods in favour of progression through technology - failing to realise that their aggressive agnosticism may merely end up replacing spiritual faith with belief in science instead. The Machine Spirits are manipulating the Mechanos into acting on their behalf, but the Mechanos are natural innovators and may yet discover they are being exploited.

This background ties the genesis of Machine Spirits to an undisputed event in the FfH timeline (Baranaxus creating Ice Golems in Age Of Ice), and fits in well with the general dark flavour of FfH, that even the best of intentions can become corrupted. See the entries for Goliath, Maer, Printing Press and Neutrality for an exploration of this angle.

As for Victorian England, I was at the Science Musuem in London last Saturday and it struck me that Charles Babbage's Difference Engine would make a good Wonder at the end of the Machinery line - perhaps granting the owner knowledge of any tech which two or more Civilizations has researched.

 

[arkham4269]

As for Victorian England, I was at the Science Musuem in London last Saturday and it struck me that Charles Babbage's Difference Engine would make a good Wonder at the end of the Machinery line - perhaps granting the owner knowledge of any tech which two or more Civilizations has researched.

Well as I've pointed out in the Necro-Christi Zombie Mod and the Fury Road "Mad Max" mod, there are often low tech solutions to high tech problems and if civilization collapsed, it would be easier to make a Difference Engine until you got your technology back up and running to get back to computers as we know them.

Actually the Romans have a interesting device used to measure their roads that was like a distant ancestor of the DE. Anyway, I would think the Mechanos and Lurchirp could easily be seen making them and perhaps the Khazad.

I don't know, sometimes my only complaint with FfH is that the tech true sort of conks out to soon. Orbis looks like a mod that you could expand it more like Rise of Mankind. In this I mean for the most part, all Civs tend to end up getting the same techs. There is no large 'trees' that if you start down, you rarely go back. For example, in Rise of Mankind I think they have about 3-6 techs getting you down to the ultimate cavalry unit. Most Civs other than the Hippus wouldn't bother and would probably stop at the 3rd because their civ has it's own imperatives.

Oh as for my wife, we caught the fact that the women in her family are carriers of the Fragile X syndrome before we tried to have kids. It's not she can't have kids, it's just that they'd either have a form of autism or they'd be carriers themselves and this disorder gets worse per generation.

 

[arkham4269]

The sounds of the woman’s cries carried as she ran down the hall. A Palace Gaurdsman looked in and asked, “Is aught alright my lord?”

Verocchioco sighed, “Yes Rinaldo, I am fine. It is just the usual. Please close the door and have the Chamberlain round her up. Sedate her and send her back to her family with my apologies.”

Sighing once again, Verocchioco limped back to his study and poured himself some Khazadian Brandy.

_ANotHEr fALurE In sERvaNTs, i SCan._

Verocchioco looked up to see Talos in his normal place, lurking by his workbench. He wondered if it was being sarcastic, concerned or merely indifferent as only a machine could be.

“Yes, well even with all the death and war, my visage is still enough to turn the hardest stomachs. “ Grimacing with pain, he sat down.

_ASsiTAncE WitH YouR UpgADes I WiLL TenD._

“Damnit Talos, they are not upgrades! This damn thing merely replaces my leg! And while I didn’t lose the arm, you have no idea how much this elbow replacement hurts in the cold.”

Talos did not reply but began to undress Verocchioco with a practice ease. Removing his breeches uncovered the refined-mana powered replacement leg. Talos released the clasps and removed it. Turning his attention to the chest plate, Verocchioco waved him away.

“No, the charge is fine; there is no need to plug me in. Just take this damn mask off.”

Talso complied and began to unbolt the collection of mask, chainmail coif topped with a sun-radial crown. Verocchioco gave a sigh of relief as the cool air touch what was left of his face that could still feel. Looking at his hideously scarred face in the nearby mirror, he once again marveled that his goggles had managed to protect his eyes from the explosion even if it had totally wiped away his nose and one of his ears.

_OIntMEnt LUbrICatIOn wILl kEEp dAMagED to BIo cOVerINg tO A miNImuM._

“Blast! For a marvel of a machine, especially one who prats on about upgrades, you would think you would have some way to warm your hands!” Verocchioco cried as Talos began to tend to the burns across most of his body.

_FOr wARmtH One NEedS To aCQuiRE a sUItaBLe bIOloGIcaL UniT._

Verocchioco sighed once again. How he had tried to find a companion, if only a chambermaid to rub his burnt skin, that wouldn’t flee from his wounds. He thought about a Elohim saying about how heavy the burden of the Crown, how it was lonely at the top and felt that the poet had no idea what it was like to be a Father of his people and yet be so very, very alone. For all the power of science and industry that he commanded, how he would trade his ruined body and his mysterious mecha companion to be a simple blacksmith in some country village.

My Notes: Kind of went with a Iron Man theme mixed with Dr. Doom in that Verocchioco payed a price in becoming what he is. Sort of like Odin, he had to sacrifice himself for knowledge. I guess instead of hanging for 9 days from Yggdrasil, Verocchioco blew himself up on the lab of science.

Anyway, the picture of Verocchioco made me think of a suit and the idea that under all that is someone who is kind of like Darth Vader, "He's more machine the human now." and that perhaps in time Talos (for its own purposes) might try to get him to gain more and more 'upgrades' and since Verocchioco is cut off from normal human contact, he risks the danger of being less human and more alienated, even from his own people.

 

[arkham4269]

"You and your types are all alike. You think you can come into the forest and take what you want, hunt where you want or just hide out from our Just Majestys sheriffs. It is people like you that would cut down to many trees or hunt out the animals that all the villagers depend on. Worse it's people like you that would use these woods to prey on those villagers as a wolf does. Luckily for them there are people like me."

Forester Gaimen Thurm, acting as judge, jury and executioner to a poacher in the Royal Forests Preserve of Udenerat

HISTORY: The Forester usually held a position equal to a sheriff or local law enforcer. He was responsible for patrolling the woodlands on a lord or noble's property. His duties included negotiating deals for the sale of lumber and timber and stopping poachers from illegally hunting. Many times wanted criminals would hide in a forest. When this occurred it was the duty of the Forester to organize armed gangs to capture the criminal if they did not hunt them down themselves. Often foresters held titles of prominence in their local communities, and acted as barristers and arbitrators.

 

[arkham4269]

"A dirtboy am I? Let me tell you sonny, in my day I hacked and hewed with the best of them but now I an more important than I was as a mere footman in Our Majestys forces. For now I am a farmer and when I left my fathers farm to get away from the plow, I never realized how important our task really was outside our steading. Yes, the girls all love your uniform and swoon at the tales of your bravery. But tell me this, how far afield would you go without we farmers sending you food to fight, eh? Something solders always forget, yea even generals; an army fights but rarely but it eats three times a day!'

Guildman Haflor Gunn to guards outside the canteen of the Army of the Adian Fields

HISTORY: Farmers have traditionally been seen as one of the lower castes in every society. Their job, however, is so essential to the well being of village, city and castle that it is almost always overlooked. Every piece of bread, every potato and every bowl of rice got to the table out of the sweat and labor of the common farmer. It is a responsibility that the Three-Field Order takes seriously for there is no faster way for a society to fall apart than by simple famine.

 

[arkham4269]

"Feel your center! It is the balance point of your body. It is the quiet, disciplined part of your mind,. It is the denial of all but what is important. Without that center, you are doomed. The weight of your armor, the clang of arms, the rush of mana power coursing through you, even the blood rushing through your veins will distract you and kill you.

You are the Amurite elite and the heirs to Kylorin and His gifts to us! The other races pretend to work magics and while many like the Sheaim have crude skills, only we Amurites can remain so centered to wade into the foe with magic and weapons united."

Foran the Warder, Cevedes Training Yard Master, to his students before dismissing them for the evening meal.

HISTORY: If there is one truth that even the most unlettered peasant knows is that magic can kill. Drawing the mana from the node, harnessing its power into spell craft and then using it in battle, all phases are fraught with danger. Thus most adepts and mages keep their distractions to a minimum and thus are clad almost as penitent monks who have cast off worldly possessions. In contrast, the Amurite Battlemages stand in stark contrast. Their well oiled chainmail, gauntlets of hardened swamp troll hide and their maces blazing with the Flame of Kylorin all conspire to create havoc among their enemies. Will they charge or send a wave of fireballs into the line...or both.? Only the Scion Necromancers are a pale rendition of this powerful arm of the Amurite army.

UPDATE: I just realized that earlier in this thread was an entry for battlemage. Don't think I felt that entry wasn't 'good' enough; I just didn't realize it was there. =[

 

[arkham4269]

My officers all drew back as the the great frame entered the tent, red eyes flashing. How different he was from the blood-spatted, wild beast I had glimpsed in that first battle so many years ago!

"My lord Gunnolf, thank you for coming." A few of my officers gave me sneering glances I pretended not to notice. Gunnolf was no more noble than I was with him being originally a mere bugler amongst the standard bearers of the legion. Yet Halfmorn's magic and many long campaigns had earned him his title in my eyes.

I gestured to the maps and plans hanging on the wall, "As you can see, our plans are almost ready. We march for Nubia soon. All that is needed is to take this plan to His Lordship and get his approval. I wanted your...insight before proceeding."

Which a guttural chuff, the dark beast looked up and down the maps, his golden torcs and bracelets shiny in the torchlight, bright against his coal black fur.

"Mmmmmmm, yesss, these are gooOod planss, but here and here are wrong for my wolves...nooOoo, we ssstrike here and here against the foe," Gunnolf rumbled after some reflection.

One of my under-captains spoke up. He was of noble birth and resented Gunnolf and his presence in the council tent. "The plans have been gone over by the best strategist we have; I cannot see how you could dismiss them so quickly."

Gunnolf growled deep in the back of his throat and the under-captain turned pale. I did nothing as I knew that growl was as close to a chuckle as the great werewolf could accomplish.

"Thisss plan hass my wolvess going up against the vampiresss here and sskeletons here. No blood for my wolvess, no chance to bring in more of Halfmorn's children to fight and rend the foe. No, we fight the hot-blooded men or not at all."

Of Wolves, Blood and Steel: The Road to Prespur, the collected memoirs of General Alteran the Wolfbrother

HISTORY: At first, those who are given the dubious gift of the curse of Halfmorn are practically wild beasts themselves. Yet time and the hot blood of their foes changes them into more and more into the likeness of their Dark Lord. With the werewolves love of blood and combat, few werewolves live past their early days to become blooded and capable of more rational thought. Yet those who survive and later mature into greater werewolves are some of the most fearsome opponents on the battlefields of Erebus.

 

[arkham4269]

My shield split and in the haze of pain I realized that I must have dropped my sword somewhere. I fell into the mud as the Moroi line surged forward. Through the pain I gave a silent prayer to Cernunnos to keep my family safe. However the battle-cries of the Morai suddenly turned to screams. I pushed myself up and was amazed to see dark forms hurling themselves out of the woods, rending the Moroi like so many wolves among sheep.

As I cleared my eyes of blood, I realized how apt this analogy was. My remaining men and I stood stunned as the dark children of Baron Halfmorn broke the Calibim line. One of them broke from the pack and ambled over. Fear washed through me and I cast around for a weapon but only spied our fallen banner. I quickly took it up which seemed to halt the beast. He then came on slowly to me. His eyes were the color of the Calibim blood that was splashes across his fur. Around his neck was tied a cord with shiny trinkets and a ring caught me eye.

"Gunnolf," I exclaimed! This dark beast was Gunnolf! He had been a young boy who had run off his farm and was a bugler with our legions standard bearers. During one chaotic battle, he had gotten separated from our line and was attacked by some newly created of Halfmorns breed. Yet here he was, doubled in size, staring at the our banner with recognition.

"Yesss, Gunnolf I wass," the beast rumbled. Cries of surprise came from my men; rare is it for a werewolf to speak! "Yess, Gunnolf I am and you are knoOown to me...yess. My brotherss rend the foe but vampiress are near. Fight the undead you musst for their cold blood we will not tassste!" And with that, he ambled away after his pack brothers.

Shaking my head to clear it, I turn to the remains of my men. "Well what are you waiting for? You heard the beast, we have vampires in our area and I'm not about to have my blood shed to be their meal so lets rally the men and have it!"

Of Wolves, Blood and Steel: The Road to Prespur, the collected memoirs of General Alteran the Wolfbrother

HISTORY: Whether seen as a gift or a curse, the blood of Duin Halfmorn causes crazed madness. Hunger for blood and flesh is all that a werewolf thinks of. Yet for most, blood lust denotes a loss of sanity, for the children of Halfmorn it is the opposite. The more blood, the clear the mind as the blood works its dark magic in transforming them. What once was almost an unthinking beast is capable of becoming a more rational creature...and much more deadly.

 

[arkham4269]

Ahwaric, is it possible to move strategy/background to end of entries when updating them? It would make for more consistency in the Civlopedia since in the first entries (Techs) you have the verbiage first and then strategy and descriptions.

Obviously you don't have to do them all, but maybe as something to do over time. I wish I knew how to do it myself so I could save you the time so you could concentrate on my 'important' stuff.

 

[arkham4269]

"They always want to put in your place. A peg for every hole, a shoe for every foot. Well ever since I was a lad I did what I wanted and not what was expected of me. No, I've lived a square life in a world full of round holes. Oh I do the bidding of the good Minister Koun alright, but I do it on my terms and my way. Course I can do this because I know the Golden Gule: those who produce results get to make their own rules!"

Adventurer Sefar Yetziras to that evenings light-o-loves at the Dancing Sea Turtle tavern

HISTORY: The Grigori pride themselves in casting off of old ways of thought and not wedding themselves to any one dogma. Yet every society has its rules and laws that bind them together. The Adventurers of the Grigori chafe at even these light restrictions and thus are some of the most adaptable of Erebus. Even the Balseraph Mimics would be hard pressed to match the Adventurers ability to be what is needed when needed.

 

[arkham4269]

"The matter lies before the eyes of all; everybody sees it, touches it, loves it, but knows it not. It is glorious and vile, precious and of small account, and is found everywhere... But, to be brief, our Matter has as many names as there are things in this world; that is why the foolish know it not."

Excerpts from Separate and Join Together: The Way of the Alchemist by Master of Alchemy Abin Alkindus

HISTORY: To the common people, alchemist are but mere chemists who strive to change lead into gold. The reality is far more complex with an alchemist being one part scientist, philosopher and mystic. The road to transmutation isn't a simple mechanic process but one that is often found in examining psychological musings and mystical vision quests. To those of their guild, alchemist know that to be a true follower of alchemy one must first transform themselves.

MY NOTES: From the Golden Tract in the Musaeum Hermeticum of 1625

 

[arkham4269]

"For all the heat, my blood ran cold as an Illians heart. Again I cursed that slip of the tongue that angered my lord so. Now I stood on the deck of the Swiftsure and knew fear.

Captain Sören look over and saw my knuckles white upon the railing and laughed, "Do not worry counselor. I told His Lordship I would bring you back in one piece so you will be able to report on all the money he has spent on these ships. Oh I grant you that it is a sight to see; unnerving to see such a line of ships all bearing down on you. Do not give it another thought; we will have a lot of unhappy fish trying to eat those tainted Scions soon enough."

"Captain, it is not those ships that I am fearing right now. It is the fact that I am aboard a wooden ship that is filled with more fire than one could expect from a private hell!"

Naval Counselor Brexio on board the Swiftsure prior to start of the Battle of Aduro Straights

HISTORY: Most land-lubbers think an Arcane Barque to be merely a shipped filled with mages trained in the arts of Fire mana. This could not be farther from the truth. In actuality the magic involved is the direct opposite. What are taken to be fireballs by the ignorant are actually catapult shot that are treated with a volatile and very combustible material. It is the ship itself that is filled with magic. Prior to ever leaving the slipway, a Arcane Barque is magically altered to make it as proof against fire as can be. Only in this way is it safe enough for the wooden ship to carry its deadly ammo.

 

[civ_king]

I could have sworn it was the other way around...