Combat in Civ3

[Misery]

I have only been playing for a short time, but I am finding the combat is pretty frustrating. Example....vanilla civ 3, 1.29 on warlord...it is approximately 200 BC or so and I find myself expanding nicely. There is plenty of fresh water, resources, luxuries and excellent city locations. Then I bump into the Germans. So I quickly work to put some cities up to help block their expansion. Sure enough, Bismark begins to get annoyed then furious at me. Therefore, I decided to build up my army and go to war.

I had my scout throughout the German cities and I realize they do not have iron. At least I couldn't find any, so I am thinking this will be a quick and easy victory for me. This was confirmed when the war starts as I was not attacked by a single swordsman. Anyway, I start pumping out veteran swordsman, horseman and spearman and move them to the staging area. Because of my technological superiority, I am sure I can take at least three or four cities and confine Germany to a small track of land.

To stay in good standing, I give the other two civ's (England, China) some gold, make sure I have no units on German soil, go to the Dip screen and declare war. I take the first German city with little problem. I lost one swordsman to a spear. Fine, I'm cool with that...it happens. Then I go after Hamburg which is one of the German core cities. There is a population of 4 so there is no bonus to defense but there are 2 spears and a horseman defending. I attack with about 4 swordsman, 4 horses and an archer. I lose 3 swords, 2 horse and take the city. I'm getting a little agitated now because from my experience, had the AI attacked similarly, I'm sure it wouldn't have
had such a hard time taking my city.

While this is going on, I am continuing to pump out veteran units from my core cities. My military advisor is telling me my army is "strong" compared to Germany. I use a mixture of sword, horse and spear and send them directly to my new city. Hamburg is surrounded by rivers, and according to the manuel, rivers give a defense bonus when a unit is attacked across. I have 2 spears, 2 swords and 2 horse fortified at the two main crossings. Much to my dismay, I am attacked by a smaller number of horseman and archers across the river and I lose all 12 units! Also, my siege of another 1 pop city is totally defeated by a couple of spearman, in which my attacking force was packed with swordsman.

It was pretty frustrating so I had to offer peace which was accepted but I also got monarch out of the deal. I know I will be going to war again soon and will stamp out the German hordes, but I have a hard time figuring the combat system out. So, my question is do other players find similar results as this? Does the AI get some automatic bonus in combat? It sure seems as though when the AI is attacking me it has more success. Or have I just experienced a few cases of bad luck?

 

[Azash]

The Random Number Generator was, is, and will always be a b*tch. I think it was meant this way, and adds a nice challenge to even the easiest of difficulties.

Welcome to CFC!

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

if i were you i wouldve skipped the spearmen and horsemen and used the shields to build only swordsmen. think about it, they have a 3/2/1 and the horsemen have 2/1/2 just because they have the extra move means nothing (to me) and the spearmen have a 1/2/1 no attack and the same defense as the swordsmen... sorry for such a long reply but i just wanted to help!
(think about it the swordsmen are all of the those units together)

 

[AskReeves15]

I find that same problem in the modern era when i attack infantry with modern armor. Attack of 24 vs. defence of 10. The most annoying is when i am greece attacking japan with modern armor . The city has three tanks in it defence of 8. I go after it with 6 modern armor and get slaughtered. All my units dead one of their units dead. I want to shoot the number generator.-*

 

[brennan]

Did you check the terrain under Hamburg, a town still gets 50% def bonus if it is on a hill. Also I would have kept all units in the city when defending, rather than spread them out to try to hold a number of defensive positions. That should give you the time to build walls if you worried about a counter-attack. Preferably get some catapults in there, the are surprisingly useful.

But yeah, RNG is one sunnuver beatch

 

[Misery]

The main reason for the horseman was to get units to the field quickly. My core cities were a few turns away for my foot soldiers. Not too mention there were a few rivers to traverse. But you make a good point.

I have read another thread and see another poster commenting on losing Battleships to destroyers. It seems the consensous is when they say "random attack", they mean it. Also, it pays to have veteran units as opposed to regular or conscript. My new build order will have to include barracks, especially when I increase difficulty. Agree, disagree?

edit: Ahh, the terrain under the city. Never thought of that...damn you guys are good!

 

[brennan]

You mean you didn't have vets?!?!

Watch out for military civs (especially Bismark!) they are more likely to build units than others, so tend to have more lurking around when you go to war, that is probably the reason why you are having trouble with them. When you get rid of the initial rush things should get easier.

 

[bingen]

If you want to lose less units then build catapults. On warlord it ought to be pretty easy to steamroll with swordsmen though. Just make sure you focus them enough.

Always use veteran units. Cities without barracks can build catapults though.

 

[Misery]

I was pretty good about getting the barracks done. I think the one city pumping out spearman did not have a barracks.

Here is another question along these lines...when you take a city, what is typically the first build? I was leaning towards barracks in order to quickly retrain my defenders. But a temple would also make sense to avoid a culture flip, and to expand my cultural bounderies.

 

[vmxa]

RNG is the bane of combat in CivIII and its expansion packs. You just have to roll with the punch, but it can hurt.

Last game I had elite Mech Inf forted and it was killed by Calv, so that is sad, but I shrug. I try an elite calv on a infantry unit with 1 HP let and lost. Now I am not surprised to lose that battle, but when you see their vet calv kill an MI, you say not fair.

The argument has gone on since the game came out, but I never was a fan of the idea that obsolete units should be allowed to win some battles. I did not like the way it was in CivII, where the whole stack dies, but the Fire Power was a good idea.

I am fine with a rare occasion of a weaker unit winning, but it show be very very rare, especially when one is down to 1 HP.

Sword Vs spear, I don't care how that comes out, if all have 3 to 5 HP's. Calv attacking Archer, I don't want to see the archer win ever if the calv is at full health.

I always dislike the wooden ships sinking modern ships. I used to see a galley beat a DD or a frigate do it, never made any sense.

Rant over.

 

[Elysium Dreams]

I dislike the randomness of combat, but lacking any real system of logistics (other than unit support) or basic attrition I consider it acceptable. Attacking means spending resources, and if the only way the game manages to represent that is by having tanks ocassionally explode from cavemen waving pointy sticks at them, it's silly, but I consider it preferable to giving advanced civs cost-free conquests.

The RNG does seem somewhat prone to "clumping" results, though, which definitely is annoying; part of being a random distribution means that results won't be quite as evenly spread out as might be expected, but it often seems to go to extremes. e.g. rolling over hundreds of rifleman with tanks without scratching the paint, then attacking a couple cavalry and losing 3 or 4, rather than just ocassionally losing one tank here, one there.

 

[Himalia]

Thats indeed true the amount of troops it seems you need to take out a few AI ones at times in unthinkable. Does the difficulty make any difference ? I know that you get a bonus vs Barbarian on the lower levels. It does not say anything about the AI getting any combat bonus on higher levels vs human players. Or soes the AI get a bonus and its just not mentioned anywere ? I usually play on SID so in some respects i would expect this.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

There is no dificulty level combat bonus for the AI other than against barbs. Combat is always at the mercy of the RNG. Remember that even flat terrain gets a 10% defensive bonus.

Vet horsemen have a better chance to retreat than regulars and an all horseman rush can be quite useful. Just remember to bring along enough of them.

 

[Own]

Coolio- You say movement doesn't matter ? 2 movement instead of one means you conquer at twice the pace. Don't forget about retreat. I do prefer swordsmen on high difficulty, but on low, like warlord I prefer horesmen. My horses better get ready for Gotm 44.

 

[Tomoyo]

I've always liked the randomness. Well, not really the randomness, but galley vs. destroyer shouldn't be an automatic win for the destroyer. Especially if the destroyer is redlined and defending.

 

[vmxa]

Yes a DD should always win Vs a galley. The USS Cole after having a hole blown in its side would still sink any galley.

Were that not so, the rest of the world would still employ galleys for wars.

Randomness is fine for more or less equal battles, not fine for unequal ones of great disparity.

OWn I am on your side with the movement, but 2 move Vs 1 move is not really twice the conquest rate, unless the units are equal on attack. IOW a sword is 3 attack and 2 defensive, so it will at least offset the retreat of the horse.

It survives counter attacks better and has a higher kill ratio. The horse retreat is some what nullified if roads exist, as the counter will get to the horse.

 

[Misery]

To serve my purposes in this case, which was to bring units to the front quickly overly a long distance, horsemen were the only choice.

Also, I am not a big fan of how the obsolete units don't drop from the build queue. I hate having to scroll past my trusty warrior to get to my modern armor.

 

[Twonky]

IMO, a little randomness is a must. There is often enough a civ far behind in tech (that´s me on higher difficulty) that is forced to fight with outdated units. If those had zero chances in battle, it would well mean game over too early.
As for the early units, I prefer horseman whenever possible, because their upgrade is much better. Swords get useless pretty quickly.

 

[henry k c]

Randomness is evil. I just had an elite archer killed while ATTACKING regular archer unfortified on plains. The annoying thing is the regular didn't even lose 1 hp. Also once I had a fully healed army of riders killed by a single pikeman. And that pikeman didn't even lose 1 hp either. Ive also had alot of other units/armies killed, just don't remember details.

Early on, I build swords only when possible. In the medival era, I build mostly knights but very few MDIs for some reason. Its a bad habit.

 

[vmxa]

Also, I am not a big fan of how the obsolete units don't drop from the build queue. I hate having to scroll past my trusty warrior to get to my modern armor.

Not sure I follow this, if you know the upgrade tech, you no longer see the obsolete unit in the list. The exception is if it is a UU and you have not had a GA, or you do not have the required resource.

So if you get rubber to make infantry, but the rubber is lostm you then see rifles instead of infantry, You do not see both at the same time.

Me I wish you did an dcould filter out the one you do not want to see at this point. It would be nice at times to make a cheaper unit, especially for Monarchy, where you can have 3 MP's, but do not want expensive units sitting around.

Also for lost leaders. I like to send in a weak units at times to take the bombardment. Not a big deal, but occassions do come up.