Combat Questions

[Merkinball]

Is there a way of knowing all the units that are in that stack of doom? I hate it when a stack is so deep with units that there's no way of knowing the composition of what's at your doorstep. It doesn't seem logical that with air recon, you can't know all the units in a stack. Am I missing something here?

The best units are supposed to surface to the top of stack when under attack from an enemy.

Is this true? I've watched two turns of battle where my city defending SAM infantry have been favored by other units with attacking choppers. I thought my eyes were decieving me, or thought perhaps I had no such units in there, but sure enough, I did indeed have full strength SAM infantry in both cities. So my Marines have been sacraficed, and their gunships remain.

I'm still getting real upset at this artillery engine. I need justification for this.

A.) Nothing ever withdraws. Justinian has hit with the stack of all stacks of doom. First I loosened the stack of dozens of fighters/bombers from my surrounding lands, then started busting him up with my artillery. Nothing withdrew. Out of tens of artillery strikes, I had five withdraw. Most battles were 50% withdrawal rates. Subsequent turn, he strikes with his artillery and every one of them withdraw. Every F*CKING one of them.

B.) When I hit his stack in the field, my artillery averaged 5 units damaged per strike. At most 7. Every single one of his artillery pieces damaged 8 of my units. I've asked this before, but WTH gives.

Absolutely frustrating.

B.) How do units rotate up when you hit them with collateral damage units? Is there a method? His stack was excessively large. Maybe 100 units. So I had no way of knowing exactly what was in it when I struck it. When I hit him with my dozens of artillery pieces, I took known infantry in the stack down into single digits for life. It seemed as though I was pretty much just damaging the same bunch of infantry. Within the stack were anti-tanks, and no matter how many artillery I used, if I checked to see a tank's odds against the anti-tank, all the anti-tanks in the stack were undamaged. Cavalry in the stack remained undamaged as well.

Why is it that the infantry are all down to 3-6 range, but everything else remains untouched, or essentially untouched.

This is terribly frustrating.

Air defense

Is this just...random game engine crap too? Why is that I send in a group of four bombers at a stack, and all four get completely shot down. Yet, I have SAM infantry and fighters defending my cities from incoming air, yet...there's absolutely no evidence that it's doing any good. My crap gets damaged in dogfights, not theres. Even AIRSHIPS are getting through unscathed.

This is another aspect of the war engine that just seems utterly lopsided. I lose whole air squadrons, and I face a delouge of attacks from airships.

It seems rather ridiculous.

Bad luck right... Or I didn't notice it before when everything went my way right? Or, it's a perfect random number generation system right?

 

[GuitarHero]

It's possible the Anti-Tank has numerous Drill Promotions.

 

[GenocideBringer]

A.) Nothing ever withdraws. Justinian has hit with the stack of all stacks of doom. First I loosened the stack of dozens of fighters/bombers from my surrounding lands, then started busting him up with my artillery. Nothing withdrew. Out of tens of artillery strikes, I had five withdraw. Most battles were 50% withdrawal rates. Subsequent turn, he strikes with his artillery and every one of them withdraw. Every F*CKING one of them.

Artillery always withdraws if they win the battle. That's why.

B.) When I hit his stack in the field, my artillery averaged 5 units damaged per strike. At most 7. Every single one of his artillery pieces damaged 8 of my units. I've asked this before, but WTH gives.

Promotions can have a massive effect.

B.) How do units rotate up when you hit them with collateral damage units? Is there a method? His stack was excessively large. Maybe 100 units. So I had no way of knowing exactly what was in it when I struck it. When I hit him with my dozens of artillery pieces, I took known infantry in the stack down into single digits for life. It seemed as though I was pretty much just damaging the same bunch of infantry. Within the stack were anti-tanks, and no matter how many artillery I used, if I checked to see a tank's odds against the anti-tank, all the anti-tanks in the stack were undamaged. Cavalry in the stack remained undamaged as well.

Probably because the infantry still had the best chance to fight off your artillery. Don't know why that would be, though

Is this just...random game engine crap too? Why is that I send in a group of four bombers at a stack, and all four get completely shot down. Yet, I have SAM infantry and fighters defending my cities from incoming air, yet...there's absolutely no evidence that it's doing any good. My crap gets damaged in dogfights, not theres. Even AIRSHIPS are getting through unscathed.

Depends. How much does he have intercepting, and how much do you have? Are you sure they're set to intercept?


This is another aspect of the war engine that just seems utterly lopsided. I lose whole air squadrons, and I face a delouge of attacks from airships.

It seems rather ridiculous.

Bad luck right... Or I didn't notice it before when everything went my way right? Or, it's a perfect random number generation system right?

I think you're either making some of it up or got extremely unlucky.

 

[Inky]

Is there a way of knowing all the units that are in that stack of doom? I hate it when a stack is so deep with units that there's no way of knowing the composition of what's at your doorstep. It doesn't seem logical that with air recon, you can't know all the units in a stack. Am I missing something here?

It is a pain scrolling through them but yes, you can see them all.

The best units are supposed to surface to the top of stack when under attack from an enemy.

Is this true? I've watched two turns of battle where my city defending SAM infantry have been favored by other units with attacking choppers. I thought my eyes were decieving me, or thought perhaps I had no such units in there, but sure enough, I did indeed have full strength SAM infantry in both cities. So my Marines have been sacraficed, and their gunships remain.

The defender with the best chance to defeat the attacker always defends. Your marines may have been tougher than the SAM infantry.

I'm still getting real upset at this artillery engine. I need justification for this.

A.) Nothing ever withdraws. Justinian has hit with the stack of all stacks of doom. First I loosened the stack of dozens of fighters/bombers from my surrounding lands, then started busting him up with my artillery. Nothing withdrew. Out of tens of artillery strikes, I had five withdraw. Most battles were 50% withdrawal rates. Subsequent turn, he strikes with his artillery and every one of them withdraw. Every F*CKING one of them.

B.) When I hit his stack in the field, my artillery averaged 5 units damaged per strike. At most 7. Every single one of his artillery pieces damaged 8 of my units. I've asked this before, but WTH gives.

Absolutely frustrating.

Artillery's withdrawal chances are based on the relative attack strengths, so if the toughest defender is good at killing artillery, you aren't going to get a lot of withdrawals. Conversely, a victorious artillery will always withdraw, so if their attack chances are great that's what happens. If all of the artillery is withdrawing, while it could be luck it is more likely that they simply have a much better attack value than yours, due to promotions.

Terrain modifiers matter a lot as well. If his stack is on forested hills, across a river from your city, you aren't going to have good odds at all of attacking. Even just a hill bonus can shift things a lot. If your city has no remaining cultural defense, and isn't built on a hill, you are pretty easy targets. And even moreso to city raider artillery, who get a great bonus to hit units in cities.

Collateral damage is based on promotions. If you aren't giving your artillery barrage promotions you won't smash more units (I think, anyway. I know it changes the damage done, but I also thought it changed the number of possible targets). Siege weapons themselves are immune to collateral damage. Units which have been sufficiently damaged also are.

Simply put, his units have more promotions and thus hit harder than yours.

B.) How do units rotate up when you hit them with collateral damage units? Is there a method? His stack was excessively large. Maybe 100 units. So I had no way of knowing exactly what was in it when I struck it. When I hit him with my dozens of artillery pieces, I took known infantry in the stack down into single digits for life. It seemed as though I was pretty much just damaging the same bunch of infantry. Within the stack were anti-tanks, and no matter how many artillery I used, if I checked to see a tank's odds against the anti-tank, all the anti-tanks in the stack were undamaged. Cavalry in the stack remained undamaged as well.

Why is it that the infantry are all down to 3-6 range, but everything else remains untouched, or essentially untouched.

Need to check the war college articles, but in general, collateral damage hits randomly, among all elligible targets. The targets are attacked, and the better the target is at defending, the less damage it will take. Tough defenders may take little or no damage from the collateral damage attacks.

Antitanks with lots of drill promotions could be very hard to hurt. The cavalry may either have just got lucky, or been good enough at defending.

Air defense

Is this just...random game engine crap too? Why is that I send in a group of four bombers at a stack, and all four get completely shot down. Yet, I have SAM infantry and fighters defending my cities from incoming air, yet...there's absolutely no evidence that it's doing any good. My crap gets damaged in dogfights, not theres. Even AIRSHIPS are getting through unscathed.

This is another aspect of the war engine that just seems utterly lopsided. I lose whole air squadrons, and I face a delouge of attacks from airships.

It could be luck, but it also could be that your target has better defenders. First of all, fighters on interception missions always engage bombers trying to bomb, and have a good chance to destroy them. Second, a lot of SAM infantry is better at killing air units rather than a few of them. Third, promotions make a difference -- the AI might make them even better at intercepting.

Still, it mostly comes down to numbers -- of units and relative combat ability. Enough intercepting units compared to your air force, and nothing gets through. You didn't say what his defenses were like, but it doesn't take that much to hit four bombers going in alone without fighters.

Your SAM infantry should do some good, mech inf and mobile SAMs even better of course. But the best air defense is fighters assigned to interception. It doesn't take many of those to stop an incoming air attack, and airships are pretty much dead meat even against unpromoted fighters.

You are building airports to promote your air units, right?


Using the right promotions and the right units for the job makes a big difference. Having enough units in the fight is also obviously necessary. If the enemy stack is big enough, you can hit the same kind of unit over and over again in a turn without hitting any more than once. A healer in the stack can wipe out most of the damage you do, making your attacks a total waste.

Unless you can kill targets in a stack, the only reason to attack is collateral damage, to delay the attackers. Even then, it is best to do it if you don't lose any units.


I've had air wars with lots of interceptions and kills of enemy aircraft, and I accept that some of mine are going to get lost. Sending in fighters first to attack can reduce that some - they will engage intercepting fighters and might kill them - but it all comes down to the number of units involved.

Big stacks are hard to hurt effectively unless you have comparable numbers and the right situation. I don't like to let enemy stacks occupy hills near my cities, and for key cities you might want to clear cut any forests to avoid giving an invader a defensive position. I'll put well promoted defense units with a stack to make hurting the attack units costly, and the AI certainly can do as well.

Maybe you had bad luck, but it sounds more like bad odds. The side with the better trained and equipped forces does better, and the bigger battalions -- more shear numbers -- is never a bad thing.

 

[sagelnarg]

It is a pain scrolling through them but yes, you can see them all.

SCROLL through them? All I know is the mouse tooltip. Am I missing something?


I find that you can defend much better in a fortress than in a city. If he brings enough artillery, city defenses are reduced to zero in (less than) a round. Cities are sitting ducks imo, when trebs are around.

Hills, forest and fortress defense bonuses can't be brought down that way. So if a big stack arrives, fortify on a forest hill in front of the city rather than the city itself. The AI will usually attack that stack if on it's path.

I have made it a habit to build fortresses around my border as soon as possible. look for forests, preferable on hills. Chop down every forest surrounding your fort, as has been said. I even sacrifice tiles on a city's fat cross for that if necessary. (i admit, i LOVE building fortresses. I even build castles!)

(does the city raider promotion apply to forts? if so, a forest hill without fort might be even better than a fortified one)

By the way, i had the impression that with large enough stacks, the choice for defending units is indeed sometimes odd. But it could be just an impression, it's hard to keep track in such fights.

 

[Merkinball]

It is a pain scrolling through them but yes, you can see them all. - Inky

How is this done? I need to know what's in this stack. I want to know just exactly how massive it is. It's the only way I can adjust my units appropriately.

The defender with the best chance to defeat the attacker always defends. Your marines may have been tougher than the SAM infantry. - Inky

Probably because the infantry still had the best chance to fight off your artillery. Don't know why that would be, though - Inky

Well, what about when I attack? Here is an example where I am getting ready bombard this...absolutely massive stack. Again, this stack has at least 100 units in it:

Now, there in the image, you can see some wildly promoted units, on a hill.

Here is what I had the opportunity of doing the most damage to in direct conflict:

So what's the deal? I am assuming that there are many other wildly promoted units in this stack. I would like to damage them, and battle those units directly with my artillery pieces, that way they can't take my city which they will do in the very next turn. Yet, I'm stuck only directly damaging that already damaged artillery... I mean, WTH yo?

The cavalry may either have just got lucky, or been good enough at defending. - Inky

Upon further examination, it could just be sheer numbers. In my redo of this conflict, Justinian kills off all those units see with just cavalry, and a fair number of those units see more than one battle.

Artillery's withdrawal chances are based on the relative attack strengths, so if the toughest defender is good at killing artillery, you aren't going to get a lot of withdrawals. - Inky

Naturally. But that's all taken into account, before the battle, for you to see. That comes out in the withdrawal chance. To me, 50%, should mean 50%, not 10%. Look at the screenshots provided, that is a SLIVER of the artillery units I had. They just all dissappear. And when the shoe is on the other foot, every single one of their artillery has withdrawan, even though I specifically keep fresh units to defend against.

It could be luck, but it also could be that your target has better defenders. First of all, fighters on interception missions always engage bombers trying to bomb, and have a good chance to destroy them. Second, a lot of SAM infantry is better at killing air units rather than a few of them. Third, promotions make a difference -- the AI might make them even better at intercepting. - Inky

Upon further examination, I would reckon that my planes are in general better than my enemy's, I have solidly more promotions. I can provide screenshots if desired. Also, Justinian doesn't have rocketry yet. He's relying on his fighters and that's it. His vassals have them, but they are a non-factor in the most important ginormous battle which is pictured above.

Even in the redux version of this war, my air units get massacred.

Enough intercepting units compared to your air force, and nothing gets through. You didn't say what his defenses were like, but it doesn't take that much to hit four bombers going in alone without fighters. - Inky

Well how does this system work? Can a defending unit take out more than one? It seems like it does. The redux version of this war had a same result in regards to the southern front in regards to airwar. In this area, Justinian has two forts, with two fighters, and a city to the south with two fighters. Tokugawa, his vassal, has a more distant city with four fighters in it. I sent in...perhaps 16 fighters and bombers at a stack. I lost half my units, and did not even SCRATCH one single unit that I was trying to loosen up on the ground. I feel pretty confident that I could somehow show this through screenshots in a third redux.

You are building airports to promote your air units, right? - Inky

Yes, for the most part. My main military production city is producing units with four promotions (barracks, three generals, west point, airport.) Doesn't seem to be helping. I basically sacrafice all my elite units on the first barrage. And then I'm left with 1 or two promoted air units.

I've had air wars with lots of interceptions and kills of enemy aircraft, and I accept that some of mine are going to get lost. - Inky

Agreed. But when I send in four fighters from two cities, then 8 bombers from another city at a stack, I expect that mathematically given the situation and the defenses surrounding it, that I'd do some sort of damage to the units on the ground.

So far as SAM vs. Airships. Here is an example of Airships hitting my units. I have the SAM in the city, then three on the hill. The units on the hill are the ones getting hit. Also in the shot, you can see my fresh fighters just chillin or having coffee.

 

[MrCynical]

@Merkinball: Unfortunately your images aren't displaying, so I can't get a close look at what's happening, but a couple of points;

How is this done? I need to know what's in this stack. I want to know just exactly how massive it is. It's the only way I can adjust my units appropriately.

The list of troops in a very large stack should show the first 20 or so as normal, and then any further units at the bottom in the form; (X)unit, where unit is the unit type and X is the number of units of that type in the stack.

Well how does this system work? Can a defending unit take out more than one? It seems like it does. The redux version of this war had a same result in regards to the southern front in regards to airwar. In this area, Justinian has two forts, with two fighters, and a city to the south with two fighters. Tokugawa, his vassal, has a more distant city with four fighters in it. I sent in...perhaps 16 fighters and bombers at a stack. I lost half my units, and did not even SCRATCH one single unit that I was trying to loosen up on the ground. I feel pretty confident that I could somehow show this through screenshots in a third redux.

A fighter can only intercept one unit per turn as far as I know, though some land and sea units (SAMs, mechs and destreyers) also have a chance to intercept. Are you sure the enemy didn't have more fighters out of visible range?

 

[Merkinball]

Oh...wow...

Huh.

96 Cavalry. 36 Artillery. 26 Anti-tank, and that's before all the paratroopers showed up.

I guess that pretty much explains it.

Funny, people play Monarch and the AI sends a paltry sum of six longbows, I play a normal paced noble game, and get a near 200 unit stack. Swell.

 

[peter450]

Are you playing aggressive AI? a good way to check the combat odd's after a battle has ended is to look at the combat log afterwards it shows you the str of the units involved in every fight the odd's an how dmg was tabulated

 

[Merkinball]

The combat log is waaaaay to long and cumbersome and useless to sift through, particularly in a case like this where we are talking about hundreds of battles in just one turn. Know what I'm sayin'?

 

[Minor Annoyance]

...A fighter can only intercept one unit per turn as far as I know...

Nope. IN BTS the can now intercept an unlimited number. All fighters start with 100% interception but it's damage percentage determines if it succeeds. So if it never gets damaged one fighter can intercept anything and everything even if it's a mass attack in one turn, although that's unlikely unless it's a jet fighter against airships.

 

[Spearthrower]

Oh...wow...

Huh.

96 Cavalry. 36 Artillery. 26 Anti-tank, and that's before all the paratroopers showed up.

I guess that pretty much explains it.

Funny, people play Monarch and the AI sends a paltry sum of six longbows, I play a normal paced noble game, and get a near 200 unit stack. Swell.

That has *got* to be with Aggressive AI on.

Perhaps, you may have played a game with it on before, then in this game chosen to Play Now and the setting has remained on?


Whatever the case, that's not normal whatsoever for a noble game..... even with AGG:AI I find it hard to imagine that many!!

 

[Merkinball]

Nope, it is NOT aggressive AI.

I've seen some massive stacks before, but nothing like this. And in reality, that stack is just the beginning. There are numerous other stacks and pre-staged units. There are 67 other units within striking distance.

I did one more redux version, to try different tactics. This time, now that I realize there are 96 cavalry there, I decided to pre-emptively attack Justinian instead of waiting for it. Then, instead of attacking the stack, I simply hit it with my artillery, and then let them attack me. This gave me an opportunity to hit this super stack with one or two extra air barrages than before.

Here is how the numbers broke down.

26 Tanks, 15 Marines, 17 Infantry, 25 Cavalry, 45 Arty, 3 SAM

VS.

25 Anti tank, 17 infantry, 96 Cav, 37 Arty.

The result I found to be rather staggering. After hitting this stack with either 3 or 4 vollies with air barrages, then 45 arty, here is what Justinian had left...

25 anti-tank, 12 infantry, 89 cavalry, 25 artillery.

Yup, that's right. Even after being beaten into oblivion, 25 of 37 Artillery pieces withdrew. I killed just 8 cavalry, and just 5 infantry total.

Oh yeah, the combat engine is spot on. Just a run of bad luck.

Now you might say, "but artillery are immune to collateral damage!" True, but not when they fight artillery in the battle itself, which I must have had a dozen such battles. Or you can say "PROMOTIONS!" Well, I was comporably promoted, check the screenshots.

First what I had.

Here are two screenshots that show what Justinian had left.

Infuriating.

 

[Merkinball]

although that's unlikely unless it's a jet fighter against airships.

Oh yeah, which you can see in the screenshots, even with SAM and fighters stationed in the city, airships just slip through. All of them.

 

[Inky]

SCROLL through them? All I know is the mouse tooltip. Am I missing something?[

No, that's what I meant. It does show you all units, but many will be groups (x) in parentheses -- with the number of each promotion type listed. In a big stack, you need to do some analyzing to figure out exactly what promotions you're facing.

I find that you can defend much better in a fortress than in a city. If he brings enough artillery, city defenses are reduced to zero in (less than) a round. Cities are sitting ducks imo, when trebs are around.

Hills, forest and fortress defense bonuses can't be brought down that way. So if a big stack arrives, fortify on a forest hill in front of the city rather than the city itself. The AI will usually attack that stack if on it's path.

I have made it a habit to build fortresses around my border as soon as possible. look for forests, preferable on hills. Chop down every forest surrounding your fort, as has been said. I even sacrifice tiles on a city's fat cross for that if necessary. (i admit, i LOVE building fortresses. I even build castles!)

(does the city raider promotion apply to forts? if so, a forest hill without fort might be even better than a fortified one)

By the way, i had the impression that with large enough stacks, the choice for defending units is indeed sometimes odd. But it could be just an impression, it's hard to keep track in such fights.

City raider does appy vs forts. But as a lot of units won't have the city raider bonus, you're probably still well off defending a fort.

With big stacks it does get hard to figure out which unit was defending. But the obvious solution is to have enough attackers to pummel all of them.

 

[Inky]

Two quick things. In BTS, siege weapons can't kill anything. They withdraw once they've done their maximum damage. Siege weapons are immune to collateral damage from other siege weapons all the time. They aren't immune to air units or armor causing collateral damage. Air units also never cause kills.

You must follow up with regular units in order to kill off the survivors. Your tanks will get beat up taking out the antitank infantry, your cavalry should probably mop up a decent number of units.

 

[Merkinball]

Yes, yes, this I know...

 

[Spearthrower]

Save games are always good for contentious issues.

This seems like AGG:AI to me.... even then it does seem like AGG:AI on steroids... but not normal AI.

 

[methane]

Save games are always good for contentious issues.

This seems like AGG:AI to me.... even then it does seem like AGG:AI on steroids... but not normal AI.

In my last game (prince level, not aggressive AI) Monty sent some late game stacks at me that were about 2/3 of what he's showing here. And Monty was always at war with somebody in that game. If he would have just stayed at peace for about 30 turns and built, a stack like the one he's showing here would have been likely.

I certainly believe you could see a stack like that with normal AI.

 

[Spearthrower]

Stacks of 200? On Noble?.... even 2/3 of that in Prince?

I just want to see a save game because I havent experienced anything like that on normal AI.