Combat Reinvented. Please Read This, Civ4 Production Team

iNDUSTRIALg0D

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the health of a unit should be subdivided into: % of a unit remaining (the new hit points would be the number of troops that remaine in a unit). hit points should only be refillable by recruiting in cities. a barracks would add to the proficiency of recruited troops; proficiency of troops being the overall rank of a unit(also affecting the strength and defense of unit); and morale (units winning battles would have higher morale than say sedentary units, unless a unit was nearly wiped out in numbers). morale would also affect strength and defense of unit. all these factors would then have to be taken into consideration for a very complex battle calculation. as well i think there should be the possibility of recruiting mercenariess into a unit (to replenish losses) or as a separate unit altogether (this unit would have its own ability to ignore your orders, disband, wander for a bit, or attack somebody including you if given sufficient reason).

there should be about 6 hit points to a unit (regular, starting in the ancient age) and the number of hit points in units would increase as well as decrease (for certain units) through the ages to reflect the numbers of troops used in the combat of that age. as mentioned above there would also be several factors of a unit that would affect strength and defense of the unit. after half the hit points are gone, this should drop the strength and defense of a unit 15%. and a unit with only one hp should actually regain this 15% upon troops sensing the end.

the proficiency of the unit would be decided by the average ranking of troops. for example if a conscript unit lost half its numbers and then fully recruited from a city with a barracks (now serving out regulars instead of veterans) it would then become a regular unit because half the troops are now regulars, and I'd give it to them at the halfway point. this proficiency (or rank) determines also the strength and defense of a unit (like in civ2). conscript troops drop it 15%. regular troops don't affect it. veteran troops increase it by 15%. elite troops increase it by 30%.

last but not least morale affects strength and defense of a unit but slightly less. the morale would be poor dropping it 25%, low dropping it 10%, average nada, high increasing it 10%, and "gung-ho" increasing it 25%. the morale of a unit would be based on how many successful or unsuccesful (retreat, explained 3 paragraphs down) engagements it had been in, govt. that it is currently in effect, and perhaps on the religion of that unit (if under a single religion in the civ). the polytheistic civs early on should probably have their own angle on morale of troops as well. a unit that is nearly wiped out every engagement would drop to low initially. however when the unit starts recruiting, the new recruits would then average out the morale. if this same unit recruits after many near fatal engagements, the initial morale after the fight would be poor and low with the addition of new recruits (word of mouth to the noobs). other factors affecting morale would include terrain. swamps, jungles, deserts, and tundras would drop morale a notch unless that civ is used to this kind of terrain. sedentary units in friendly (not captured) cities probably would have "gung-ho" morale unless the city has been undersiege for a while. if a city has been undersiege for a while (no enemy units have been driven away from the city's borders), morale could potentially fall to poor. bombarders would have a big factor in this as well. units in forts and outposts who go many turns without seeing enemy or any movement will sometimes drop into low morale. and as i said above govt. and religion would also affect morale. i am no entirely sure how this would play out but i believe democracies and republics would gain morale here and there while communism and fascism probably would lose morale here and there. this could negated or reversed as well. republics and democracies who are behind and not ahead in any categories (power, culture, science, etc.) should lose this bonus, while communisms and fascisms who are ahead should actually negate the effects of their govt type and increase morale (in a show of fanatical patriotism).

there should also be the ability to order the attack of multiple units simultaneously. essentially each attacking unit would be assigned a defender based on a "military strategy" selected by the defending civ. if no more defenders could be found, one or more defending units would be double or tripleganged at least by the combined attack strength of both or more attacking units and dealing damage back to the attacking units chosen by the "military strategy" of that civ. i think this should apply to bombarders as well so far in that the bombardment hit ratio is increased thus causing better chance of damage on a unit(s) by 1 or more hps. i don't believe bombarders should be totally free from taking damage. if defending tile has a bombarder as well, i think there should be a chance that the defending bombarder could inflict damage on a bombarder. i think archers should be bombarder only units with better chance of defending themselves if unescorted (wouldn't be captured) than say catapults which would still be captured (but have a chance of self-destructed)

as well, i don't think there should not just be battle created leaders to create armies. i think after a certain advancement in the ancient ages (perhaps calling it leadership) cities should be able to build military leaders (very expensive though) if there is a barracks in that city. the armies should be up to 4 units (increasing over the ages) and only one can be built for every 5 cities. essentially they would replace the role of stacks. they should move as slow as the slowest unit and you should be able to specify what units attack in an army as if it were a stack but sharing the hps. to combat the usefulness of stacks i think any stack of more than 3 or 4 units would incur a hitpoint loss of 1 on an additional random unit per successful attack to simulate the disorganization of a stack of units unlead. the only way to counter this would be to station a military leader within that stack in a city or fortress. as a rule of thumb you could only produce a certain number of military leaders based on the number of cities (not related to number of armies allowed). in addition i think attacking stacks of greater than 3 or 4 should incur the same kind of hitpoint loss on an additional random unit per unsuccessful attack.

another thing. the ability to retreat should be an option most of the time whether defending or attacking. the retreat option should present itself to attacking units after losing half or close but not more than half of its hit points. the retreat would also only be contained to the tile the unit attacked from unless the unit still has movement points (would require at least 3 depending on terrain). the retreat option of defenders presents itself the same as above except the defending unit retreats into a selected one of three tiles (if poss.) away from the attacker. this unit does not get to move the next turn because it essentially used its movement points already. if a defending unit had just moved into that tile the last turn it would not be eligible for retreat.

with these changes in mind i think civ4 combat would be a lot more strategy based and cause people to consume a lot more time pondering moves in turns and throw out the old "rush" technique that many are so fond of. not to say civ3 has oversimplified combat strategies, but i see way too many stacks, especially in multiplayer. i too am guilty of stack abuse but it seems the only and crudest way to play. with the addition of simultaneous attacks, players could no longer rely on superior or even average defensive units to hold a position at a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 disadvantage in numbers. now a player would have to learn to anticipate the attack and position troops accordingly or else face a crushing defeat.
 
already have them copied feel free to copy them yourself. some of the ideas might work for a mod but in general i don't think you can add morale to a unit.
 
Just as a reminder, the game is in final balancing stages from everything I've read. Don't expect to see anything that is really different than what they've been playing with (they said they've been playing it MP since last year).
 
once again this is too complex of a system for the combat scale that a game like civ represents. This type of game is known as a '4X' game: meaning explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate. One of the 'X's can't over dominate the other or you loose the balance that makes civ fun.

If you take combat to this level (1/4 of the equation) then the diplomatic model should be twice as complecated as this. Not to mention the trade and city developement would make you do a sim city type enviroment for each and every city in your empire. Exploring would be done on a first person scale showing you cross the country like Lewis and Clark.

I don't know about you but I do not have that kind of time to devote to 1 game of civ.
 
Many of those points have already been mentioned in the past, but this is the first time one has put almost all of them together.

Although - as always - details may become subject to debates I would second the ideas of morale, stack limitation and - to a certain degree - of still having military leaders. Furthermore, stacked attacks ("simultaneous attacks") would drastically improve the combat system.
 
JavalTigar said:
once again this is too complex of a system for the combat scale that a game like civ represents. This type of game is known as a '4X' game: meaning explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate. One of the 'X's can't over dominate the other or you loose the balance that makes civ fun.

If you take combat to this level (1/4 of the equation) then the diplomatic model should be twice as complecated as this. Not to mention the trade and city developement would make you do a sim city type enviroment for each and every city in your empire. Exploring would be done on a first person scale showing you cross the country like Lewis and Clark.

I don't know about you but I do not have that kind of time to devote to 1 game of civ.

very true JavalTigerJonce, quite honestly although this is a bit complicated, i saw a similar system (my inspiration) from a much older game. it was called imperial conquest and it about captured the realism of battle except at the end of every military engagement one whole army was always wiped out or disbanded. perhaps the civ team could come out with a CivWarfare game or something devoting almost entirely to combat if my system is so complicated.
 
henry k c said:
That would make the civ combat system the same as in rise of nations

never played rise o nations but isn't is it real time strategy based? i'm not copying anything from that game, if anything i've stumbled upon the same good concept they have.
 
Commander Bello said:
Many of those points have already been mentioned in the past, but this is the first time one has put almost all of them together.

Although - as always - details may become subject to debates I would second the ideas of morale, stack limitation and - to a certain degree - of still having military leaders. Furthermore, stacked attacks ("simultaneous attacks") would drastically improve the combat system.

i agree very much i think the need for huge stacks would be greatly reduced if there were simultaneous atttacks. this would then cause the need for more flexible defensive positioning. a player would then have to employ tactics such as holding back troops a few squares from his front line cities as a reserve because attacks on cities would be much faster and much more brutal. and about military leaders, i think combat should be based more around armies as well because aren't they the ones who fought the wars, not a rag tag bunch of stacked troops.
 
The latest Gamespot article has Barry Caudhill stating that units can be grouped-and moved-in a stack. He has also said that you can Attack and Defend as a stack as well-with the game selecting the best attacker and defender in each case. How this will actually work-in practice-remains to be seen however.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
From the sounds of the article, it seems like one unit at a time combat still.
 
I don't know about that Warpstorm. He specifically said 'Stack Attack' and 'Stack Defense', which suggests to me that you can attack with an entire stack at once. Even if this is just a series of 1-on-1's, with the computer choosing the opponent for each battle, that will be a HUGE improvement on the current system where you have to send EACH unit at a stack one after the next. My point is that-at the very least-the whole thing sounds highly automated, which will make combat a WHOLE LOT less tedious.
I, of course, hope that stacked combat goes beyond this-into the realms of 2 against 1 and general melee's, but I am not going to hold my breath ;)!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
I've used "stack attacks" for ages in Civ3. You grab the whole stack and move it in and it chooses who attacks and defends.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
I, of course, hope that stacked combat goes beyond this-into the realms of 2 against 1 and general melee's, but I am not going to hold my breath ;)!

hells yeah. i'm with you man. i'm glad a couples of ya could actually understand that big pile of jargon i posted up there.
 
But I do not like that the game choses who defends and who attacks. I maybe want (civ3 example) the spearman to defend against this 'Mounted warrior', and not the elite swordman who could afterwards attack and defeat the mounted warrior. But he can't because he is killed first, because he is the better defender (same defence, one more hp). I'd like to determine somehow, if the better or the worse defender should defend first, or just be able to give some units priorities.

m
 
mitsho said:
But I do not like that the game choses who defends and who attacks. I maybe want (civ3 example) the spearman to defend against this 'Mounted warrior', and not the elite swordman who could afterwards attack and defeat the mounted warrior. But he can't because he is killed first, because he is the better defender (same defence, one more hp). I'd like to determine somehow, if the better or the worse defender should defend first, or just be able to give some units priorities.

m

That would be nice, and it's certainly doable - SMAC allowed you to 'designate defender' and over-ride the automatic choice. Nice if you wanted to sacrifice an obsolete defender and then counter-attack with your brand new tank.
 
mitsho said:
But I do not like that the game choses who defends and who attacks. I maybe want (civ3 example) the spearman to defend against this 'Mounted warrior', and not the elite swordman who could afterwards attack and defeat the mounted warrior. But he can't because he is killed first, because he is the better defender (same defence, one more hp). I'd like to determine somehow, if the better or the worse defender should defend first, or just be able to give some units priorities.

m
and if you read the original post you would see i thought of a "military strategy" of sorts to be chosen by the player just for instances like this. the "military strategy" would be an appointed set of guidelines for automatic defense of units. hells yeah, i'm with you mitsho.
 
henry k c said:
That would make the civ combat system the same as in rise of nations
witch sucked!!!
 
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