Combat suggestions - ranged units

[V. Soma]

Rule ideas for non-mounted ranged units:

1.
I believe that to make ranged attack needs preparation, thus what I suggest:

- In a turn, IF a ranged unit moves and THEN attacks, should do at half attacking strength.

I think rule 1 would be good for balance.

And:

2.
- if the unit attacks at the beginning of its turn, then attacks with full strength,
BUT cannot move after that (like melee units, they cannot move either after attack).

I believe rule 2 would force use of terrain or melee unit to protect ranged unit.


What do you think? Other ideas?

 

[qwerty25]

Off Topic: Shouldn't this be in the Suggestions forum that no one reads??
(honestly we need some kind of filter tagging system rather than shoving good discussions into a corner).

On Topic: I like the idea! It allows decreasing the effectiveness of "run and shoot" method without reducing ranged units strength for normal shooting.

Rambling other ideas:
I thought about inverting shooting before. Like shoot first before moving. But it felt kinda weird on paper..

There's also the ammo idea? Like so many shots before having to go back to a city. But seems too micro mangement to reload and etc...

Can only shoot twice (or three?) in a row before having to "fortify" to shoot again. Kinda like the reload idea, but way simpler. And prevents the "run and shoot" somewhat. Also allows archers a couple shots before they need to rest (allowing melee units to rush them).

 

[frenzyfol]

Nice idea. I fear with 1upt still in the ranged units will be way OP

 

[apocalypse105]

2options =

Just make range units set up like catapults in civ 5

or reduce their melee strenght so that if they get atacked they olmost die... The problem with civ 5 compasite bow and crosbow is that there melee strenght isnt a huge difference between standard infantry pikemen swordsman only the longswordsman has a change. I have a mod where i gave the crosbowman 9 melee combat strenght. No more spamming crosbowman and win wars.. actually have to move them carefully

 

[ZhukoDim]

What you think about this idea guys.

Example:
we have archer unit with 25 range attack and 15 melee. We change him like this - 15 range attack 15 melee. Plus bonus 10 attack and defence for all mellee units nearbly him. ( not stackable )

With such change we need to use more melee units if we want to use range units with full potencial. I think that can work.

What do you tihink?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Rule ideas for non-mounted ranged units:

1.
I believe that to make ranged attack needs preparation, thus what I suggest:

- In a turn, IF a ranged unit moves and THEN attacks, should do at half attacking strength.

I think rule 1 would be good for balance.

And:

2.
- if the unit attacks at the beginning of its turn, then attacks with full strength,
BUT cannot move after that (like melee units, they cannot move either after attack).

I believe rule 2 would force use of terrain or melee unit to protect ranged unit.


What do you think? Other ideas?

This rule is not about ranged vs. melee - it would be easier to just make ranged weaker. This rule is about offense vs. defense as defending archers will be able to shoot in full strength right away, while attacking archers will be punished. Not sure if that's your intended goal.

 

[apocalypse105]

What you think about this idea guys.

Example:
we have archer unit with 25 range attack and 15 melee. We change him like this - 15 range attack 15 melee. Plus bonus 10 attack and defence for all mellee units nearbly him. ( not stackable )

With such change we need to use more melee units if we want to use range units with full potencial. I think that can work.

What do you tihink?

just make them vulnerable to melee atack so YOU NEED TO STACK THEM or protect them

 

[V. Soma]

Just make range units set up like catapults in civ 5

this could make it...

But then in what way would it be different from cat?
Oh, maybe archer type unit could still move one after shooting
(if set up earlier and can shoot at beginning of turn)?

 

[apocalypse105]

this could make it...

But then in what way would it be different from cat?
Oh, maybe archer type unit could still move one after shooting
(if set up earlier and can shoot at beginning of turn)?

Make catapults bonus against cities simple as that. Difference between pikemen and swordsman? Pike has lower strenght but has bonus against mounted
so catapult has lower range but bonus against cities

Olso you could make catapuls require iron like in civ 5

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What you think about this idea guys.

Example:
we have archer unit with 25 range attack and 15 melee. We change him like this - 15 range attack 15 melee. Plus bonus 10 attack and defence for all mellee units nearbly him. ( not stackable )

With such change we need to use more melee units if we want to use range units with full potencial. I think that can work.

What do you tihink?

Instead of 25:15->15:15
The archer should change to 25:5... So itdies on melee contact

 

[isau]

Just take away their ability to counterattack during the opponent's turn and they would be fixed. Melee units charging a Ranged unit shouldn't have to eat damage. I always thought that was super broken in Civ V and is what made Archers so overpowered.

I can see the ability to counterattack melee units being a promotion deep in the unit's tree, maybe, or a special ability of a unique ranged unit. But standard ranged units shouldn't be able to fire at melee units without risk of a counterattack, and then get to counterattack the melee unit when caught. Fix this and you basically fixed the archer problem, at least assuming values are similar to Civ V.

 

[Ryika]

It allows decreasing the effectiveness of "run and shoot" method without reducing ranged units strength for normal shooting.

Aren't you guys debating a non-issue here? What "run and shoot"-tactics for non-mounted ranged units are you talking about? Have I missed a balance patch that suddenly made that into a strong strategy?

Because the way I see it "run and shoot" is an absolute non-problem in Civ 5 (for non-mounted ranged units). The real problem are fortified ranged units that snipe away whole armies. Both of the suggestions of the OP would increase that problem even more (or inevitably weaken Ranged Units in offensive Combat to a point of being mostly unusable).

Overall I agree very much with KrikkitTwo and isaus ideas. My personal solution would be to make them not do any combat damage if attacked but somewhat survive a single attack from a normal melee unit, while at the same time having Cavalry Units eat them alive in a single hit.

That way positioning matters and Cavalry has a solid role both in offensive and defensive play - a very scenic one I might add. Disregard covering your flanks and suddenly you have horseriders completely destroying your formation. A staggering defeat is inevitable.

Only downside I see is the AI not going to be able to do a good job with Cavalry.

 

[Acken]

Why keep adding rules when a simple decrease of range strength would do the trick

 

[King Jason]

So long as Ranged and Logistics promotions don't return, ranged units will be quite fine.

The first line of promotions for melee units offers +10 defense on ranged attacks. +10 being a very high modifier, as we've come to understand them. I don't foresee an issue.

All of the solutions being proposed hinder on one thing, and it's the one thing that causes ranged units to be so strong in the first place; A.I. Stupidity. Coming up with new rules the A.I. needs to learn isn't a solution. Teaching them how to play the game as it stands is the solution.

 

[happybjorn]

Why keep adding rules when a simple decrease of range strength would do the trick

Maybe decrease their defensive strength as well. My impression from the videos is ranged units are no longer able to solo same tier melee units with ease, let alone one or two higher (like in CiV).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The ranged units don't seems to be overpowered. Logistic promotion should absolutely not make a return.

 

[Ryika]

Why keep adding rules when a simple decrease of range strength would do the trick

Because it's more fun.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions