COTM66 - First Spoiler

[civ_steve]

COTM 66 First Spoiler - the Ancient Age!

Reading Requirements

1. You must be able to research a Middle Age technology.

Posting Restrictions

• Please be discreet about AI locations; however, feel free to discuss contacts and trades.
• No discussions of the middle ages (or later)
• No screenshots of any middle-age (or later) resources.
• Absolutely NO discussion of any other currently active 'X'OTM!

There's 2 Game and a couple of BG's visible in the starting screen shot. Did you have any reason to found anywhere else? How did you set up your capital initially? Any problems from the Demigod level AI? And since you are SCI, how did the transition to Middle Ages go?

 

[Megalou]

Predator

4000 - Went SE to save a forest. A wheat showed up. Unfortunately the settler now blocks mouth of river.

3950 - Founded Moscow and went warr,warr,worker, settler,... I wasn't too happy with the settler move. When the settler factory was ready I had to work one BG that was off the river - not for every turn but for many of them - while staying put would have meant 3 BGs on the river for Moscow to work.

I wavered a bit between doing Writing in 50 turns and going max, choosing the latter but losing a few turns to confusion.

2630 - Traded Pottery from Japan. (We met the niggards Mongols and Russia earlier.) Of course there would soon be a 4-turn settler factory. I mined one of the game tiles. I thought it more practical, requiring less MM.

1600 - I let Writing go around. Mongols got it just after I did so it shouldn't matter in the Philosophy race.

1425 - Some good trades. Now lacked only Construction (Mongols, India), Currency, Philosophy (2-3 t) and the optionals.

1400 - Met the last rival, Russia, who are way behind. Embassy spree:
Japan: Pyramids 64. Don't know Russia.
China: Pyramids 68.
India: Colossus 9.
America: Pyramids 21.
Russia: Too expensive. Pyramids ?.

1375 - Philosophy, Republic...

1250 - Got Construction and some profit for Philosophy. America would offer 10 gold for
Philosophy, so this time I put off selling Philosophy for exactly the right time.
Interestingly, India offers 3 gold per turn. I don't remember ever seeing a civ offer gpt in the ancient age, even though I've tried compulsively to make such deals. Granted, I have mostly played ptw the last half-year or so.

1050 - Entered MA. Free tech is Feudalism, good. I'm a bit surprised that we should have a monopoly on currency. Good Micromanaging, generous map. Russia got Engineering.

12 towns, 2 settlers, 16 workers, 8 warriors, 443 gold, 1 granary, 1 barracks due in 1.

I have playe a few rushed, sloppy and ultimately incomplete XOTMs the past months (some very incomplete) but this time I haven't been so careless, except with some minor things, so maybe I will find the time to finish this one.

 

[templar_x]

Great, Megalou rides again!

Predator, too.

I did not move the settler. The possibility of a SF is obvious, so i don´t see any reason to consider not to settle in place. Now see the cattle and the wheat – wow, what a start! start min on Writing with so many AIs around that know Pot.
Improve cow first, meet Mongols in 3550 and make an expensive trade for Pot. My finance minister is so shocked about this that the game crashes when the mongol scout moves still make the same deal again. palace expansion shows the lux and another cow.
3350 meet Japan and trade for TW, CB, BW and WC with them and the Mongols, lacking only MAS of the 1st tiers. in 3150 i think, what the f*** - the hut in the north of the starting position gives the Mongols a town!

early builds
w-w-granary in 3050-worker-settler-worker-settlers
SF from 2950, with first settler movable in 2750 i think long and hard and decide on a RCP3-like ring. from on 2670 on i see barbs move around.
2630 settle town2 by the 2nd cow 2sw1w, see 2nd lux in the south
2470 town3 2ne1n by the lux
2270 shock, Mongols already have Writing!
2230 town4 1n2nw
2190 meet China, 2030 India
1870 town5 way nw by the plains wheat and the fp´s
1790 Writing in, still get IW and MAS for it, full speed on Philo in 11
1725 WF starts in 2nd cow city (3-turner until Rep as i decided to let the deer forest stand)
1700 town6 on gold mine
1600 get Philo and choose CoL, trade for Maths, Myst and money, gift Maths around, rush to Rep in 30+ with current commerce! :-( probably big mistake that i did not take Poly which was around and take Monarchy as my freebie!
1550 found iron town (9)
1450 town8 2e to share the wheat, first ring completed
1350 2nd lux connected
1325 meet America, they have construction. sweet.
1200 connect iron, have enough money to upgrade 5 swords.
1125 declare on Mongols to take 2 cities out
1100 lose 3 sword at good odds but gain this goal
1025 revolt, 6 turns
1000 noooo! within 1 turn, everyone has Rep and my way out of AA closes! :-(

QSC 1000bc
13 towns
40 citizens
13 workers, 4 slaves
2 archers, 5 swords, 7 vet warriors, 3 cats

975 try for a leader, no. everyone else already is a Rep. Russians build Pyramids, great, i haven´t even met them yet.
900 now everyone has Lit
875 Republic, Chinese build SoZ
775 Currency known, learn it on ibt and trade for Poly (+Lit), enter MA, draw Mono, cut 2 nice deals that allow me to upgrade the rest of the warriors, buy all embassies and research Feud with 80% in 10

templar_x

 

[Racinante]

4000 BC: Build in Place, start researching Writing at minimum, building warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior
3500 BC: Meet Mongols
3450 BC: Meet Japan, trade BW+6 for CB
2900 BC: trade Japan 82g + 1 gpt for Pottery, switch temple build to granary in 2.
2070 BC: trade Japan 98g + 8 gpt for IW
1725 BC: trade Japan Writing for The Wheel + 11 g
650 BC: meet China
??? BC: meet America
330 BC: meet Indians
190 BC: meet Russians
130 BC: declare on Mongols
Take Hovd, Tsetserleg, Kazan, Tabriz (horses), Mandalgovi, Darhan. Preparing to take the Mongol capital...
110 AD: Darhan deposes costing me 11 swords (half my units).
130 AD: Peace with Mongols gaining Currency, Construction, Literature and 3 g. Enter Middle Ages.
IBT Kazan flips back to Mongols, costing three or four more swords. Grrrr.....

Missed the Republic slingshot by a wide margin. Everybody had Writing with 3 or 4 turns go. Also, Japan has built two towns south of the northern Mountain range, so I'm sure something is up with that.

Pulled Engineering as the free MA tech.

 

[Megalou]

@templar_x
Cheers!
Was your decision not to go for free republic based on the difficulty level or was there an in-game reason? I'm beginning to think I was naïve and lucky to get free republic, but my reasoning went as follows.

I absolutely trust the AI to go for Map Making after they get Writing. What they will choose after that is more uncertain, especially if you lack some first tier techs and can't see what second or third layer techs they already have.

I put a slightly stronger emphasis on gaining commerce in the beginning of the game than what is common wisdom. Legends like SirPleb have claimed that commerce is the least important asset in the early game (counting shields and food as the other two assets.) Whereas that is generally true, I think that shields are sometimes less important than commerce. For example, if choosing between working a no-commerce forest or a no-production coast tile in the early game, I will often choose the latter.

I lost some turns on Writing to indecision, while you apparently decided on minimum research. I can't say how many turns I knocked off your 50 turns of Writing but a guestimate is about 10. (The main difference in the effects seems to be that I had to build a settler before I could build granary while you could use your surplus cash to buy or half-buy pottery sooner than I could trade it.)

I can't say exactly when the Mongols got Writing, but it was between 2500-2000 BC so it could have been roughly at the same time as your Mongols.

I can tell you I got Code of Laws in 1550 BC. So, that's 2 turns after you got Philosophy. CoL is more expensive, 342 beakers against 205, which for me was equal to 5 or 6 turns. That means that I was only 3-4 turns faster than you. There were probably no wars to slow research down for the Mongols - I had a very early embassy with Mongols to check that, although there could theoretically have been a war between Mongols and Russia before 1400 BC. And as you can see that I traded away Philosophy in 1250 BC, 5 turns after getting the sling-shot. The Americans would have gotten it the next turn, as I hinted in the spoiler, but it was a bit cheaper for them to research it because I already had it. So probably the first AI would have learned Philosophy as late as 1200 BC, give or take a turn, in my game.

And so it is likely that you also could have gotten the sling-shot. But I'm not saying you should have tried, since the margin was pretty slim.

Noteably, my Mongols got Map Making as early as 1600 or 1625 BC. That's where I'm starting to think I got lucky with The Republic.

@Racinante,
it's always irritating to hear about military lost in flips. A year or so ago someone suggested that the flip risk is actually higher if you have troops in a town - the mythical sadistic streak inherent in civIII. I keep my troops outside captured towns, preferably on a road of course, unless those towns are under direct threat.

 

[Racinante]

it's always irritating to hear about military lost in flips. A year or so ago someone suggested that the flip risk is actually higher if you have troops in a town - the mythical sadistic streak inherent in civIII. I keep my troops outside captured towns, preferably on a road of course, unless those towns are under direct threat.

Thanks for the advice. The Mongols were hitting the town with horses fairly frequently, and I was trying to heal up some of the swords. I probably should have pulled out the ones that were healthy and pushed onward to Karakorum with those.

 

[Più Freddo]

I can tell you I got Code of Laws in 1550 BC.

Well, I made an extreme effort towards the Sling-Shot and lost it. I stopped there.

Everything was going perfect. I sent the first Settler to the Gold Mountain on River, which doubled my gold input in 3100 BC (P'yongyang). I then was able to trade for Pottery and build a Settler Factory. I discovered Writing in 2430 BC and Code of Laws in 1725 BC. Philosophy was set for 1550 BC, but India beat me to it, having themselves discovered Writing in 2230 BC.

Perhaps there was a hut involved. Oh well.

 

[templar_x]

@templar_x
Cheers!
Was your decision not to go for free republic based on the difficulty level or was there an in-game reason? I'm beginning to think I was naïve and lucky to get free republic, but my reasoning went as follows.

to be honest, i simply chickened out

usually i´d give the slingshot a try on DG. but lately i was pretty unlucky with that strategy so rather went the safe way. i felt like when some AI totally ignored what they were supposed to research (once on Deity, once on Monarch) and lost my sling.
when the Mongol scouts popped hut after hut and even got a town on my frontyard i did not feel like today was the day to go risky again.
and of course, CoL was not around when i got Philo, which had been my hope.

regarding commerce in the early game, it very much depends in my games. especially if i can get a really good start, i do not mind to choose commerce over shields. food comes always first, except special settings like AW.

here i counted my beakers and did not see how i would seriously get <50 turns. the Mongol town in my first ring disturbed my REX (not too much though). and i chose the wheat town as 2nd town over the gold town, which could have been the only way to get Writing faster.

@ Racinante
i too do not believe that any town or just healing is worth the risk of losing a fair part of your army in a flip. even at low chances i would not have kept so many swords in it. practically i here use to act the same way Megalou does.

templar_x

 

[Megalou]

I didn't choose the gold hill for my second town either, but for the third or fourth; I chose the river near the northern cow (which meant distance 3, not 2, because of my 4000 BC settler move.) Naivity was probably the reason for that too and it's ironic that Píu Freddo didn't get the sling-shot. On the other hand all the pressure is on me now and a poor finish from me may result in humiliation. It is a pity of sorts that Píu Freddo quit the game.

Re the flip risk discussion: I will go even further than we have done so far, to say that even if a town is in immediate danger of being captured, I may well place injured troops outside its walls. But losing towns, even temporarily, tends to increase war weariness drastically, so it's not clear-cut.

 

[Racinante]

i too do not believe that any town or just healing is worth the risk of losing a fair part of your army in a flip. even at low chances i would not have kept so many swords in it. practically i here use to act the same way Megalou does.

It is a pity of sorts that Píu Freddo quit the game.

Re the flip risk discussion: I will go even further than we have done so far, to say that even if a town is in immediate danger of being captured, I may well place injured troops outside its walls. But losing towns, even temporarily, tends to increase war weariness drastically, so it's not clear-cut.

Sorry to hear that Píu quit the game. Hopefully it's only temporary.

So I need to rethink my strategy a bit. Normally I try to quell the resisters as quickly as possible while starving the town so that I can rush a library, temple, settler, or worker. The loss of the town is painful for a republic, so I was trying to avoid that as well. The defensive bonus of a town can help in its defense as well. Still, loosing several swords is much more painful than losing one in retaking, and finally during the AA the troops can heal up outside the town. So I see the advantage there as well. Now I just need to put that into practice.

Probably need to plan that for the next GOTM as I'm currently in the Industrial ages with this one.

 

[TriumphSpitfire]

Obviously rather a nice start with the two game - couldn’t see anything more in the fog from the initial shot posted on the site, but on loading up I was sure I could spot something interesting NNW. Move worker to BG to have a look and spot a cow. This isn't the first time I've found something like this - anyone else have similar experiences, is it just to do with picture resolution?

After a bit of thinking decide to settle Seoul 1N of start to get the cow early. Worker irrigate / road cow, chop / mine game forest. Build warrior / warrior / warrior / granary (2950BC) / 4 turn settlers. Research writing on min (I'll come back to that later in view of other comments).

1st warrior goes N, pops hut (barbs, survives), 3500BC meets Mongol warrior, 3400BC meets Japanese warrior. Trade Alpha & BW to Japan for Wheel & 23g, trade Wheel & 2gpt & 17g to Mongols for Pot & CB. 2710BC trade Pottery & 1gpt & 40g to Japan for WC. 2nd warrior goes W, 2510BC find Bombay, 2430BC meet American scout, 2390BC Chinese.

2390BC buy HBR from Japan for 7gpt & 67g, sell to India for Myst & 45g, America for 130g & China for Mas.

2270BC buy IW from China for 1gpt & 188g, sell with 1gpt to Japan for Wri & 4g, sell to India for 100g, sell Wri & 11g to America for 2 workers - set reseatch to Lit at min (hoping for an outside chance at a monopoly, since in COTM65 nobody researched it for me until halfway through the MA - didn't come off tough).

1450BC buy Poly from China for 1gpt & 352g, sell to India along with 2gpt & 80g for CoL & Philo, sell to US for MM & 11g, sell to Mongols (with CoL) for Maths & 177g. Sometime around here must have complete Lit and moved to curr.

1100BC upgrade 9 warriors, 1050BC declare on Japan (picked them so that I'll only have to fight on one front later on). Some early gains, then slow progress until take Kyoto around 800BC. 690BC make peace for Constr, a town & 6g (they only have 2 towns left). Buy rest of curr from India for 10gpt & 50g, enter MA.

1000BC: 15 towns, 38 pop, 2 barracks, 3 temples, 2 granaries; 1 settler, 10 workers (+2 slaves), 9 warriors, 13 swords; 71g (+36gpt); missing constr & curr (Lit in 7); iron, furs and silks hooked up.

As for the debate on the slingshot, I never even though about it because of the difficulty level. I did think about going max for writing but decided go at min, hoard money and trade. Looking back I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have got it first, as Japan and others had it by 2270. India also had CoL & Philo by 1450 (I presume they got Philo first and took CoL as their free), so I'm again pretty sure I wouldn't have made it. All in all, I think the only AA tech I discovered myself was Lit, and that was at min!

In general I was very happy up to 1000BC. However, I think I then took too long to make peace with Japan as I was waiting to get the rest of the AA techs off them, and should have pulled out / traded earlier. Still, not going too badly - will have to start on the Mongols soon though as they have horses and I don't.

 

[templar_x]

I chose the river near the northern cow (which meant distance 3, not 2, because of my 4000 BC settler move.) Naivity was probably the reason for that too and it's ironic that Píu Freddo didn't get the sling-shot. On the other hand all the pressure is on me now and a poor finish from me may result in humiliation. It is a pity of sorts that Píu Freddo quit the game.

naivity is a trait nobody is going to buy from one of the best and most experienced players around

but why do you now dislike your decision about the placement of your town #2?

Piu, i would find it very interesting if you would finish your game still. that would provide great knowledge about if it is possible - i often wondered - to get a good result after failing the sling. and in case of a top notch player like you that would make a lot of sense, like, if you look at it like your very special predator obstacle.

templar_x

 

[Più Freddo]

Piu, i would find it very interesting if you would finish your game still.

Thanks, but I've read this spoiler before reaching the Middle Ages, so that is not an option. See you all in GOTM97.

I would be interested to know what made the AI so slow in Megalou's game, though.

 

[bluebox]

Obviously rather a nice start with the two game - couldn’t see anything more in the fog from the initial shot posted on the site, but on loading up I was sure I could spot something interesting NNW. Move worker to BG to have a look and spot a cow. This isn't the first time I've found something like this - anyone else have similar experiences, is it just to do with picture resolution?

Hmm, the art of fog peaking it's possible to see under the fog when you take the preview pic and mangle it though a photo editor. peaking under the fog once was a frequent habit here.


OK, here something about my game: First, I made a detailed plan of how to use the game and the forest to get a settler out the fastest way. After discovering the wheat and the cow when I settled on spot, I gave it up immediately and went for a 7-9 SF, irrigating all food bonus tiles.

Around 500BC I had about 12 towns and went to war against Japan, later Mongols. The fights were very hard, I got behind in techs and I had to make peace with Japan to be able to concentrate on the weaker Mongols.

I entered MA after a peace deal with the Mongols in 510AD! In between were (mostly fake) wars with Mongols' ally China who dogpiled almost all other AIs. My separate peace with China broke four alliances. There also were two more wars with Japan, a MA between me and China vs. America. China made a MA with Japan, who lost lot of MedInfs to America, and so on, all without a real progress except with the Mongols. China and America both had conquered a good chunk of India and now they are fighting each other, practising "active disarmament"

Everyone is still ahead of me in techs and are in the process of starting their GA's (China, Japan, India). I got Monotheism as my free tech, and though im now strong in military vs. Japan, I will not be able to conquer their cities b/c I don't have MedInfs and they have pikes. Probably going to ROP-rape them destroying their resources.

 

[templar_x]

OK, here something about my game: First, I made a detailed plan of how to use the game and the forest to get a settler out the fastest way. After discovering the wheat and the cow when I settled on spot, I gave it up immediately and went for a 7-9 SF, irrigating all food bonus tiles.

a 7-9 settler factory???

i really have to go back to the starting save after finishing the game and start counting! never had set up anything like that myself.

templar_x

 

[Megalou]

I would be interested to know what made the AI so slow in Megalou's game, though.

Theories:
Someone popped Polytheism, traded it around and then obviously chose the expensive Monarchy as their next tech. Monarchy was around rather early. I'm not sure if Polytheism can be popped before Philosophy but it's still quite plausible that you got unlucky with the AI pops somehow.

or

The AIs chose to research polytheism in my game. Then Monarchy will follow as night does day and Philosophy will be far away. Some civs certainly choose Polytheism early. It is unlikely that more than one or two should choose Polytheism over Philosophy, I think, but you can count the Russians out in my game, because they were way behind, even though they picked up pace later. The Japanese were also quite slow for some reason.

or

I didn't let go of my Writing semi-monopoly or my CoL monopoly too early (not suggesting others did, but it may be a factor.)


I won't be able to give any answers because I was behind several first tier techs so I won't see when which AI got what.

@templar_X,
Thanks for the praise! Yet I maintain that I was being naive. I haven't played C3C on a high level for maybe a year and I didn't remember much about the tech pace.

Oh and, let's not talk like the sling-shot thing clinches the win anymore, shall we?

 

[templar_x]

Oh and, let's not talk like the sling-shot thing clinches the win anymore, shall we?

i see, now you think that *we* are being naive.

templar_x

 

[IvanDolvich2]

and my second xotm game.

The start: 2 Game, cool! Move worker to Game to chop. Settle in Place, oops! Cow up north, hmm.. calculate. Ok, I wasted a worker move, head to the cow.
Warrior x2, Settler, worker, Granary (chop both game) and 4 turn SF.
2nd town wwsw. Meet the neighbors, bust fog.
Min Writing, Max Lit (20+ turns). Trade for Wheel and IW along the way to see the resources.
Lit comes in, Turn off science, Build GLib in town 2. Beef up to pop 12 with a settler and 2 workers to get the GLib faster. Bite Nails as all the neighbors get Lit and start building GLib while I have 10ish turns left. Use income to get embassies and ROPs with the neighbors.

1000 QSC: 10 towns, 33pop, 102 Land, 2 Settlers, 6 workers, 15 warriors, 1 curragh, 1 granary, 1 Barracks, 1 temple

2 neighbors enter MA 3 turns before GLIB.
Japan Gets Pyramids (nice) and others cascade to GLib (eep!) 1 turn before GLIB
750BC, GLIB comes in, (whew!)
730BC Get ALL AA techs minus Republic(11) , noone has MA tech, Pick up Monotheism for free tech, look to trade: hmmm, only the Mongols have any money 800g and 23 gpt. Take it, and leave all the others alone. Tech parity with one, lead over others. Russia so backwards, I leave them behind. (Not worth empowering them just to get their free tech IMO, they have the most cities next to me).
13towns, 43pop, 123 Land, 1 Settlers, 7 workers, 16 warriors, 3 curragh, 1 granary, 3 Barracks, 1 temple, Great Lib.

The Plan: Wait for Republic, Change Govt. Use the GLIB as infrastructure period. Need libraries, and markets in cities. Maybe build enough army to take out the Japanese for the Lebenstraum. They have not been in a war yet, while everyone else has. I'm hoping that they can be enticed to go after the Mongols. (hopefully before samurai)

So far this has been a very good start for me. This is my first DG game, and I've handled the raging barbs much better than last game. I'm basically following the Deity Builders guide. Looking at the numbers, I'm short on workers. I'll probably pop a few more soon. I probably wasted shields in the curraghs, but I thought I'd lose some to Barb galleys. So far I've killed 2 galleys and survived. This is my first GLIB gambit and it worked. I'll go for a later VC (UN or SS), but I will clear out the riff-raff as opportunity provides.

 

[I. Larkin]

What a start!
Saw cow at fog and go there.
Writing on max.
Build W, W, Settler Granary, workers...
Got monopoly on Wri and trade it around.
Met Russians later on.
At 1750 BC four AIs got Poly, Got Phylo -> Monarchy ibt 1750 - 1725. Revolt at 1700 BC and establish Monarchy at 1600. Japan and China demand Monarchy and declare.
Lit on max , ->Currency. America demand Lit and declare. MA-PT deals of india and Russia vs them. Peace with Japan gave 2 smal Cities.Reseach Currency at 1200 BC, AIs got construction and CoL meanwhile. Waited 2 turns to remove Barbarian's camp and got Feudalism at 1150 BC. Did not gift Russia as they was so backward.
The only Wonder AI built is Colosus at Washington.

 

[Spoonwood]

I fiddled around for a bit. I didn't go for the slingshot, I took Philosophy-Literature I believe. Everything looked decent until a barbie horseman came and sacked a worker of mine. I voluntarily retired in disgust.