Crazy Spatz's Alpha Centauri Mod

I think the reason I brought up the case of the Artillery is that in my Industrial era starts (Standard Size/Continents/ Emporer) the game is pretty much over by the time Plasma Artillery becomes prevalent enough to have any influence on the game.

I know. The game SHOULD still be playable in the Digital, but right now the balance is still just a bit off in the late Industrial/early Nuclear. I mentioned above the five ways it's imbalanced, as I see them; if I can fix a couple of those, then I'll be happy.

The only question becomes, how much do I want to change to fix each of these. For instance, right now your research rate explodes in the Modern Era through the combination of the Research Lab, Medical Lab, Scientists (with their boost from the Red Cross), and massive city growth. I've tried limiting the growth part a bit, and it's helped, but the question becomes what I want to do with the others. For instance, the Research Lab is +40% research; I could change it to be more University-like, with +30% and, say, +2 science per Forest (to complement the jungle bonus of universities). Under the right circumstances this might actually give more beakers than before, but on average it'd be a slight decrease. Or I could just raise the tech costs again, but obviously that'd only make your current difficulties worse as you'd spend even longer in the era where it's all lopsided.

Likewise, I mentioned before that I really want to add a renaissance-type National Wonder (most likely the Magna Carta) that gives all units +10% when fighting in friendly territory (or maybe just +10% on defense) and another +10% vs. bombardment, and boosts Citizens (unemployed) by +1 food. That last part actually makes sense for the Magna Carta if you think about it. If I could get the range-3 city attack thing done somehow, it could go there too. This'd make it much harder for you to steamroll the other players in the late Industrial, which'd make it so that you actually WOULD reach the Plasma Artillery.

Hmmm, maybe its time to up the difficulty? Or maybe play on larger maps (which should produce some duels with bigger empires)?

Both of those could work; I've found that 10-civ (Large) maps are far harder than the 6-civ Smalls or even the 8-civ Standard, because of what ends up happening. In the 6-civ case you can often invade a neighbor to gain an insurmountable advantage by the time the Nuclear Era rolls around, and you'll be the only one of that size. But add more players, and even if you invade two neighbors, the chances are there's some empire on the other side of the world that's done the same to one or two of ITS neighbors. In my last game, while I was invading the Mongols and English, there was Siam over there who'd conquered India and Greece and locked up most of the city-states. By the early Digital, they were still neck-and-neck with me.

But really, those solutions only mask the underlying balance problem. Currently, there are just a couple inherent imbalances in the game at specific points in the tech tree, where a human can go on a rampage while the AIs often can't. If I fix those, then your current settings should be fine. First and foremost, decoupling the space race from the victory table, or at least disabling the AI's ability to pick the space race as a victory path.
 
GAH, hate it when your über-long post gets eaten for no reason ... I just can't bring myself to rewrite it :(

Summary: Difficulty only matters early-game, later you'll still dominate due to the inherited ******ness of the AI. I play Deity and basically get game-over feeling by the Spaceship, and since I hate playing winning games I RQ :rolleyes:

Edit: That's not to say I'm in for an easy win, just that I could easily begin the loooooong boooooring job to capture every. city. on. the. map. It's not challenging, just time-consuming :o
Playing for any other victory type would be pointless, since the AI can never beat me culturally but have so much effing gold I could never buy enough CSs for Diplomatic win :wallbash:


If only I had the patience to play MP on Civ ... Meh, better get in line with the FPS kids :shake:
 
Summary: Difficulty only matters early-game, later you'll still dominate due to the inherited ******ness of the AI.

Basically, yes. The point of my Balance mod is really to address this... I've been trying to shift the game to where the optimum strategy, from the players' point of view, is to do the same sorts of things that the AI is ALREADY doing. Garrisoning each city and spreading units around the empire, slowing down expansion to ensure you have enough happiness, and so on. I'm effectively compensating for a stupid AI by encouraging the players to not use their superior intellects to their advantage.

That's why I hope that fixing the five imbalances mentioned earlier will make things better; if the players just can't pull away drastically in certain eras (in this case, late Industrial), then the AI will have a better chance of staying a threat in the long term. You'll probably still hit that point where you just KNOW you'll win and it's all mopping up from there, but ideally that shouldn't happen until the late Fusion era, and right now it's coming by the early Digital at the latest.

That's not to say I'm in for an easy win, just that I could easily begin the loooooong boooooring job to capture every. city. on. the. map. It's not challenging, just time-consuming

True. What I've been trying to do with some of my changes, like the tech stealing, is to allow half-conquered AIs to still stay viable as empires. That way, a half-eaten Greece can STILL beat you with a diplo win if you're not careful.

Playing for any other victory type would be pointless, since the AI can never beat me culturally but have so much effing gold I could never buy enough CSs for Diplomatic win

I'm hoping that I can trim down that massive gold surplus. If you didn't have that, to where it'd be hard to make enough profits just to keep a couple city-states as allies, imagine what it'd do to the dynamic. I think the biggest offender is the 1000-gp gift; in one shot, you can go from No Relations to insta-Ally, and if you're gaining hundreds per turn then it's not hard to save up that much. Right now, Influence is just too directly tied to Gold.

I'm not suggesting capping at 500; obviously, that wouldn't help because you'd just gift twice. No, what needs to happen is more insidious: a CS shouldn't automatically ally with (and vote for) whoever has the most Influence with them; instead, your Influence should give you a chance each turn to move up from Enemy to No Relation to Friend to Ally (or vice versa), with the CS going randomly back and forth between every civ that has over 60 Influence with them with the chance of switching based on relative influence levels. Obviously, this isn't how it works in the core game, although some of the Lua stubs are in place to implement something like this. If I could do something like that, then I could lower the diplo victory thresholds, because it'd be VERY hard to lock up a majority of the votes.

Ever played Sins of a Solar Empire? (Great game.) Anyway, in that game the Pirates raid one empire every 15 minutes of real time, and they'll raid whichever player has the highest bounty on them at the moment they launch. So within the last 30 seconds before each launch, everyone starts placing bounties on each other, and you usually end up with two empires going back-and-forth to place the other one higher. Since the human can save the game and reload, it's not hard to ensure your empire isn't the one to get hit.
During a beta test I'd suggested to their devs to make it less absolute, where when the pirates launched they'd send a force to EVERY empire, with the size of each (or the chance of one launching at all) dependent on the bounty that specific empire has. No last-second bidding wars, although there'd still be a reason to put a big bounty on your enemies' heads.

Similar issue here. An absolute bidding system like we have now heavily favors the human; that's why I'm looking at reducing the bribe amounts even further, and raising quest influence even more, but there's only so far you can take that. The underlying system just needs to be made less absolute in the first place.
 
I think there is a bug regarding the Red Cross as I can build it in the same city as I have already built Hollywood in, but can't build the Red Cross in a city that I have the prerequisites for (i.e. I think you have a sign crossed here).

D
 
I think there is a bug regarding the Red Cross as I can build it in the same city as I have already built Hollywood in, but can't build the Red Cross in a city that I have the prerequisites for (i.e. I think you have a sign crossed here).

I just checked it, and it works fine in my game. Building Hollywood immediately took Red Cross off that city's list (along with Wall Street and the Three Gorges), and the Red Cross only became available when a city had a Hospital and a Public School, as intended. So I'm not sure what you're seeing.

Now, the stupidest part of the mutually exclusive building groups is that you just have to assign a number to the group. I picked 5. So if you try using my mod with one that also uses group 5 for something, then it'll conflict (which'd explain the second part of your observation, about how having the prerequisites wasn't enough). But I can't see anything that could allow you to have both in the same city...

EDIT: I even tried queueing them up, but as soon as the city completed one of the four, it removed the other three from the build list.
 
As a matter of fact, I've played quite a lot of Sins. Was fun, but got a bit monotonous after a while ... Last thing I did was to DL a mod, play against 3 highest-level AIs, and hide behind a black hole. Yes indeed, they didn't know to avoid it :lol:

On the topic of your exclusive national wonders, I always pick the Dam but my new units don't get Teamwork ... Or is it invisible?
 
On the topic of your exclusive national wonders, I always pick the Dam but my new units don't get Teamwork ... Or is it invisible?

It should be visible; I thought I'd checked it before and it worked, but it's definitely broken now. To make sure, I've made a change in the next version that should fix it. I think the problem came down to the UnitPromotions_UnitCombats table; you can give a promotion to a specific unit without needing an entry in that table (like how the Teamwork promotion is given to Laser Infantry), but if you want to give it through a Building or Wonder you have to specify which unit classes are eligible, and I hadn't done that with Teamwork.

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I leave for vacation in about three hours, and I'll be back in a week; in the interim I almost definitely won't be visiting this board or playing/modding Civ at all. So expect the next new version to be at the end of the month, and take your time making feedback on the game balance and such.

Before I go, I want to mention something else I've been thinking about. The question for me, as always, is what happens next. I'm REALLY close to making this mod be "done", I think; the unit models obviously still need a bit of work, and there are quite a few things I want to tweak (next up: the Mobile Shield. It's going to use Lua to make all units within 2 hexes immune to nuke damage and strong against orbital weapons, and possibly even add to the chance of SDI intercepting nukes if they're going to impact nearby.), and some balance issues remain, but after that, what do I do next?

Assuming I don't give up on Civ5 altogether, I'd like to expand this mod, basically. I've mentioned before a hypothetical Third Mod that adds more content to the earlier eras, analogous to (but separate from) the Content mod. I've learned a lot in the process of making the future-era content, and as a result I think I can make the earlier eras a bit more dynamic without nearly as much of a learning curve, since all of the key components are already in place. So based on some earlier comments, here's what I've been thinking. Names are placeholders, most likely, especially for copyright reasons, but it should give you the basic idea; I NEED to rename this mod fairly soon.


Fundamentally, this will become a 5-mod set, collectively referred to as Ages of Man. (One of the reasons I want this to start with an A is so that it'll all be grouped at the top of the mod list. I'm still open to suggestions, but it's got to be something without "Spatz", "Alpha", or "Centauri" in the name.)

It'd start with an Ages of Man - Base mod. The Base mod would contain much of the Lua functionality and new XML tables, and the other four mods would all require it. This'd solve some of my current issues, where some things (like the KGB) are mixed in with future-era content because they have to be to use the tech steal mechanism, or the Stock Exchange, Wall Street, and Hollywood needing the Building Resources part of the Content mod just to add their resources.

The Ages of Man - Balance mod would basically be similar to what's in my Balance mod now, except that I'd pull out the tech yield increases and such to place in other era-specific mods. I might just merge this with the Base mod, but I'd prefer to keep it separate for those people who'd prefer to use, say, Thal's balance mods instead.

Then, there'd be three Content mods, each focusing on a different time period (the eponymous "Ages"). Going from late to early:
Age of Ascension would basically be what we call the current Content mod, minus a few early bits; it'd basically start with the modified Space Race/Breakout and go all the way to Transcendence. If you use this mod, you're likely aiming towards transcendence, hence the name. It'd obviously be the largest of the three, as it adds all of my new techs, units, buildings, wonders, resources, etc. and heavily overhauls many victory conditions.

Age of Empire would be a new content mod stretching from the end of the Dark Ages to WW2, focusing on the development and fracturing of far-flung empires. It'd include things like the Enlightenment, a more detailed colonization race, revolutions, civil wars, and world wars. Things like the KGB, Red Cross, Wall Street, etc. in the current Content mod would be moved over here, but it'd mostly be an event-based mod designed to screw up any long-term plans you try to make, and would depend heavily on a diplomacy system upgrade.

Age of Mythology would be the earliest content mod, and would probably be the last to be worked on. It'd be my attempt to implement a crude religion setup, kind of like the DUCKS mod idea. If you've ever played the Age of Mythology RTS (basically a conversion of the Age of Empires III engine), they had you go through four eras, and at each one you'd pick a new minor god to worship, with the possible choices depending on your major god. This choice would affect which mythological units you could then build, what Wonder-type structures you could gain, and would give certain bonuses to your existing buildings/wonders. That sort of thing would work pretty well in Civ5 if it was handled right, especially if the bonuses went away once you mostly gave up religion at the end of the Dark Ages. (You'd keep the Piety branch in the policies, as a remnant of organized religion, but the mythological units and such would all disappear.) But it almost definitely requires the DLL.

The idea, then, is that you could mix and match the three content mods at will based on what style of game you wanted to play. If you want to start in the Industrial and just play the future content, you'd disable the earlier two content mods. Or if you just don't like the idea of mythological units, then you could disable the early mod and use the other two. Disable the Ascension mod, and the game ends in the Nuclear Era right after the world wars. And so on.

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So there you have it. It might all just be a pipe dream, because as time goes on fewer people seem to be around, and it's taken me ten months of modding to get to the point we're at now. But that's what I've been thinking about where to go from here. Obviously, naming suggestions are still welcome, and the ideas for the earlier content are still very flexible, but in general I like the idea of three clearly-defined "Ages" spanning the whole tree, with the playstyle of each being fundamentally different.

Thoughts?
 
AoE 3 came after AoM, right?

Edit: I actually played the first one, although I was like 7 years or something :lol:
Edit2: And in AoM I mostly sat in the editor stacking 100 carnivora plants together and attack if with tons of infantries for the lulz, just saying

/b1tchey

Apart from that, it sounds really neat. Making the early ages more than a buildup for the fun part ought to be nice :hatsoff:
 
I played Age of Mythology to death when I was a kid! Great game, I was always disappointed that they never made a sequel (with Mesoamerican and Asian factions added, would have been amazing)

Anyway, I was thinking about a relgion structure for the game that effected various aspects of your civ, different branches that work sort of like polices (Animism, Totemism, Polytheisim, Monotheism) with various mini branches in them, maybe have a stock of god names to pick for what role etc.
 
I just checked it, and it works fine in my game. Building Hollywood immediately took Red Cross off that city's list (along with Wall Street and the Three Gorges), and the Red Cross only became available when a city had a Hospital and a Public School, as intended. So I'm not sure what you're seeing.

I loaded my save file from last night, but now I can't emulate the issue. :sad: And on top of that I didn't take a pic last night. :mad: If I see it again I will take a pic.


D
 
I played Age of Mythology to death when I was a kid! Great game, I was always disappointed that they never made a sequel (with Mesoamerican and Asian factions added, would have been amazing)

Anyway, I was thinking about a relgion structure for the game that effected various aspects of your civ, different branches that work sort of like polices (Animism, Totemism, Polytheisim, Monotheism) with various mini branches in them, maybe have a stock of god names to pick for what role etc.

Wait a minute ... What about the Titans expansion pack?
 
Was really just extra greek stuff, im talking about a full sequel with AoE3 graphics

I always wanted that, shame they don't want to create any more AoE or AoM stuff, there even was a picture showing plans for AoE IV and V placing events on the Modern era and Future respectively.

On topic: I'm not really fond of "Age of Man", it could be better "Age of Mankinds" or something like that, but "Age of Man" could easily refer to the age of a man, or man itself as a name (So, how old is Man?), something like that, sounds confusing to me, honestly.

It's moar like the name of a B-movie rather than the name of a top Civ5 mod.
 
Long time lurker, first time poster - I'm one of the folks who's been downloading this mod since April or so, but never piped up. I love the work you've done, and have stayed quiet mostly because I don't have a lot of insight to offer. But, just about every new version, I'll read the changelog and be very pleased/interested by the changes. I'm guessing it would be annoying to read a cheerleading post every patch, so I haven't done that. ;)

But, I do want to offer support for the Ages plan you've outlined - it's big, it's ambitious, and it sounds like a fantastic take on 4X. I agree that it's a ton of work, and I don't think anyone would fault you if you decided not to go through with the whole thing, but as long as you're having a good time modding, I really hope that you do it.

Keep up the good work!
 
I know you won't be getting this post for a while, but I seem to be having more crashes since your latest update

Also, your balance mod seems to not be loading correctly, getting old effects from buildings and policies
 
If you're going to do an AoM mod for the earlier eras, you're going to need a big event to happen for when myth units become unavailable and to explain why the gods are no longer interfereing with humans

Another thing i'd really like to see is an alien invasion event, simular to the breakout (maybe even tied to it) except with mostly air and nuke units from a mothership unit that spawns which requires titan units to take out and is actually a big threat to the larger civs on the map, and each alien unit killed gives science

Maybe even tie the 2 events together with an "ancient aliens" sort of explaination
 
Okay, I'm still on vacation, but I managed to scavenge some Internet time, so here I am. I won't really be back until Wednesday night, but in the meantime I can respond to a few people.

Sjru said:
On topic: I'm not really fond of "Age of Man",

Well, it was Ages of Man (note the plural), but I'm not too attached to that name either. It really is a bit too generic, but it's such an easy differentiation: three Ages, with Mythology, Empire, and Acension being the three basic stages in order, for the early, middle and late games. The bigger problem is just the obvious one: using the exact name of a game you're going to "borrow" resources and concepts from really isn't a good idea.

dinobot386 said:
Also, your balance mod seems to not be loading correctly, getting old effects from buildings and policies

Sounds like a cache issue, assuming you don't see a bug in the XML logs, but I can check it when I get back. It was all seemng fine when I tried it before I left, but things were a bit rushed.

dinobot386 said:
If you're going to do an AoM mod for the earlier eras, you're going to need a big event to happen for when myth units become unavailable and to explain why the gods are no longer interfereing with humans

Actually, that one's not too difficult. The answer was basically given to us back in Civ4: remember the Free Religion civic, how it'd basically remove all of the positive and negative religion-based things that came before? Or the Emancipation civic, that gave everyone who hadn't adopted it a happiness penalty? That's the sort of thing I'd use to end the process.

The way I was looking to implement it would be sort of a cross between the DUCKS mod and AoM. Basically, there'd be a custom policy, sort of like my SMAC start policy, that you'd start the game with. It'd have some major penalties (-50% science, -50% growth, etc.), which you'd offset through various deity-specific bonuses, and would cause your civ to generate a new yield called Favor through one of three methods (from combat, from religious buildings, from Priest specialists) similar to the three nations in the original AoM. There'd be a few things in common; I'd use that policy to reduce the Monument and Temple by 1 Culture (to +1 culture and +1 Happiness, respectively), but have each add 1 Favor. That sort of thing would really help the AI, of course.

To make this work I'd probably have to double the amount of time you spend in the Ancient and Classical Eras, partially by adding more techs to both (instead of having a Classical "Era" consisting of a pitiful five or six techs). These would be fleshed out with a few extra techs, mostly those that deal with religion (like Monotheism and such). So as time goes on, you'd use Favor points to "improve" your primary deity, similar to the current Policy branches (but using an entirely new UI window, which I'm ready to attempt). These purchased bonuses would generally add in ways that'd offset the massive penalties mentioned above, and periodically (say, every five techs or so, or maybe at specific techs) you'd add another minor deity to your pantheon (or maybe if you've gone Monotheistic, it instead builds your primary). These would add some bonuses, add some mythological UUs, add some special UBs, and so on. A god of Healing might provide all of your units with the Medic promotion (or the Immortal's double-healing one), a god of Knowledge might give you the Nethack Terminus' ability to warn you when other civs build Wonders and a small reesearch boost, a god of Pleasure might unlock the Empath specialists a few millenia early. This'd generally be accomplished through a custom Shrine building in every city, whose benefits would vary with your current deity choices.

I've already figured out a basic weighting mechanism for the AI to make it pick intelligently, based on three axes (Good/Evil, Law/Chaos, Activve/Passive), with the available choices for minor deities/domains depending on what you've taken previously (and yes, I'm going to crib the domains from D&D). That is, you start off choosing a Sun, Moon, or Earth deity as your baseline; pretty much any Sun god will be able to angle for a Healing sub-god, and maybe half of the Earth gods could get one depending on their other choices, but it'd be very unlikely that a Moon god could get one. That sort of thing. I'd probably tie the Favor mechanisms to the above choice for simplicity's sake, but it might end up being a separate axis (so that there'd be 9 basic combinations to work with).

But as time goes on the drawbacks inherent to the whole process start to get crippling, because most of the minor gods will be designed to be a zero-sum game; that goddess of Fertility might make your cities grow more quickly, but she might also lower productivity in your cities. A god of Healing might make your units heal better, but it'd also limit the kinds of medical research that made such a difference for early civilizations, because why bother trying to discover germ theory when you can just pray those diseases away? And sure, your primary god might now be able to throw lightning bolts at your enemies (say, like an orbital beam weapon!) but he's probably stifling the cultural growth of your empire in the long term.

So if you want to, you can end those Dark Ages and start the Enlightenment... which removes that custom Policy from your empire, suddenly speeding up your growth and research at the cost of removing your Shrines, with all those mythological abilities you've accumulated. And then, to make things worse, all units of "disbelieving" civs (those that have already reached the Enlightenment) woud receive an inherent bonus against the remaining Myth units. So while it'll hurt to lose all of those neat abilities, in the long run you'll want to give up direct contact with your gods. (But don't confuse this with the Piety branch, which is all about the socio-political aspects of worshippiing a God who doesn't answer, for culture and Happiness without the problems of dealing with an actual deity.)

So that's the basic idea for the AoM mod; I'm fine-tuning a lot of the details while I'm on my trip. Ideally, it'd basically be over by the time you reached the Renaissance, although I'm still trying to think if it'd be a good idea to make it advantageous to stay "believers" all the way to the end. Either way, I don't intend to add any victory conditions for it; it'd just act as a sort of alternate version of the first three Eras with a bit more "flavor".

As for the AoE mod, that'll focus far more on diplomacy, espionage (I'm trying to figure out how to implement true Diplomat and Spy units), pirates/privateers, exploration (with more powerful versions of the ancient ruins that might pop up in occupied territory, sort of like the Spore Towers and their Planetpearl yields...) and colonization. If Favor was the new Yield for the AoM mod, Loyalty would probably be the one for this mod, where distant cities might rebel (or at least stop being productive, a la the corruption stat of earlier games) if you haven't built up enough, and depending on your exact relationships you might get pulled into a World War against your will. I'd also move things like the KGB, Red Cross, etc. into this mod; it'd basically be everything up to the first nuclear weapons. I'm also looking to add a sort of random event system that'd extend beyond just that one era, with small bonuses and penalties popping up at random times.

Unfortunately, while AoA (the current SMAC mod) and AoM would probably be fine with the current XML/Lua, I'm pretty sure the Empire mod would need DLL access.

Anyway, back in a few days, although I might be able to squeeze some more Internet time out tomorrow.
 
Does anybody have any idea how to get this to run on OS X?
I've read some threads over in the Mac forum, but sadly the mod crashes, even though it's just loading scripts and xml-files, right?

I'd be happy about any hint you have about loading it successfully!
 
I really like the idea of keeping it still viable to remain a beleiver, perhaps make the civ more dependent on the special abilities granted if they don't start an enlightenment

Would be interesting to see the abilities in modern and future eras, like say a healing god that can clear fallout or even terraform
 
I really like the idea of keeping it still viable to remain a beleiver, perhaps make the civ more dependent on the special abilities granted if they don't start an enlightenment

The basic problem with doing this, unfortunately, is the AI. If I make it possible to stay a Believer civilization, then I have to make it possible for the AI to choose to do so. But if there's only a very limited, very specific path by which that choice remains viable, then it's very unlikely to work well for the AI.
The other major problem is one of content. If I make mythological units comparable to the mundane units of the early eras, then that's okay, but if I make it possible to still be using them in the Industrial Era, then it means creating a whole set of new units that most civs should never unlock. This is one reason I'm leaning towards things like the "all units gain promotion X", things that don't require the addition of a large number of units to obsolete.

Ideally, I'd want a system that would HEAVILY encourage you to trigger the Enlightenment as soon as possible, generally in the Medieval Era. (I still haven't decided on the exact trigger mechanism, but I'm working on it. Probably something along the lines of the Space Race, with multiple Projects.) That way, if a player chose not to do so he could continue, effectively penalizing himself in a way that I don't need the AI to be able to emulate. It'd be sort of like an OCC game.
The problem is that I'd have to make SURE it still stays sub-optimal. A policy that gives -50% Research sounds crippling, and it stays so right up until you unlock Universities thanks to the additive nature. But if I'm not careful, then the penalties might end up being negligible in the long run. It might be best, then, to have a Breakout-equivalent event where civs that didn't go through the process voluntarily are forced to do so eventually.

The other potential issue are racial biases; I'm trying to decide whether the deity choices should be purely random, or whether each civ should have an inherent bias towards specific paths. I might do both, and have that be an option on the setup screen.

Yes, I know, I'm awfully talkative for someone who's still on vacation. I'm fixing my parents' computer, and needed a website to test it on...
 
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