Crazy Spatz's Alpha Centauri Mod

(I have the year but the turn can be calculated from the year and speed I think)

It CAN be calculated. It's just more work for me, especially once you get to the later eras, and especially if you're playing on speeds other than Standard.

For instance, let's take your 2380 BC. That's 1620 years into the game.
On Marathon, the first 150 turns are 10 years per turn, so turn 151 is 1500 years in (2500 BC).
The next 450 turns are 80 months per turn (6.67 years per). So to add 120 more years, you need 18 more turns. 2380 BC then corresponds to turn number 169, if I'm doing the math right. On Standard that'd be turn 56 or so, which is a bit fast to enter the Classical Era but not unheard of for beelining. (In vanilla, 2380BC would be turn 112ish on Marathon.) A game that starts in the Classical Era starts at 2000 BC, which'd be 57 turns later at those speeds, but that's with all Ancient techs researched and no cities established.

For earlier eras the math isn't too bad. But if you'd said "1917 AD", then it gets hairy, because I'd have to add 150+10 + 450*6.67 + 255*3.33 + 301*1.33 + ... not pretty. The smart way to do it is to set benchmarks at the end of each bracket (like "2500 BC = turn 101"), and working from those; I've done that for Standard, but hadn't for other speeds.
And in later eras there's a disambiguation problem; on Marathon, the final thousand turns or so are going at 2 months per turn, meaning six turns in a row will have the same year number. (Even before you get to that point you'll have a while where it's 4 or 8 months per turn.) And I actually went out of my way to make that better than the vanilla game; in vanilla, the final 156 turns on Marathon (assuming you get that far) go 1 month per turn.

I want to clarify that I didn't researched all of the ancient era techs by the time I've reached the classical era. I usually never have completely researched a previous era while entering the next one, I come back later and do it.

Of course. No one completely fills an era before moving onto the next one, even if you're not beelining for something. That's why I requested the turn number when you finish an era, as well. If I know that you first entered the Classical Era on turn 169 but didn't finish the last tech in the Ancient Era until turn 200, then that tells me that I should really be trying to match the Classical Era's starting year number (2000 BC) to turn 180ish, instead of its current 226 (151 in vanilla). Someone who beelines would take a few turns less to first get there, someone who wanted to be more complete would take a few turns longer (although part of that later turn number would be the turns spent on techs in the next era), but the AI would fall in between.

It's not just the gamespeed file that's the problem. Each era has a StartPercent value, done as a fraction of the total turn number. So if there are 500 turns in the full game on Standard, and the Classical is set to 10%, then the game will assume that it starts on turn 50. (150 for Marathon.) When I added my new eras I raised the turn cap to 1000, which meant I had to lower all of the existing StartPercent values, but I couldn't just scale them linearly down. So I did this a bit backwards, trying to pick a StartPercent that'd put me at the same year as before (2000 BC for Classical), but only for Standard speed. Part of the feedback, then, would be to help me set those variables as well.

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Anyway, I'm hoping that a couple of the changes I made will help with the stability, because if it didn't, then it might not be something directly caused by my mod. (Not that it wouldn't be tied to the mod, I just mean that if it's something like "the engine can't handle more than a certain amount of Lua modification" then there's a bigger issue.) Playing on Marathon with a huge map in an Ancient start should definitely stress the system; most of my test cases lately are on Standard, small map, Industrial start, which generally invalidate the turn number feedback.
 
Quite a few people have downloaded the mod, but only a couple give regular feedback.

sorry about that,
my Civ5 vanilla game crashes constantly since last december's patch

and as such, i can't really have an enlightened opinion to say about the mod, because i crash usually before getting 30 minutes of gameplay...
with or without mod.
with huge map full of civs and city states AND on duel map with no city states...

anyway, tracking down crashes in my games is not high in my priority list, as i have enough to track at work...


but i'm keeping myself up to date on the readings of this forum thread, and i try something to identify the source of the crashes every time i can find the time to do so.

i've gone through all the updates i could thought of.
i have decent hardware.
recently i bought win7, so i had hopes the directX 11 version of the game would fare better for me... and no.

i just recently downloaded and installed everything to enable me to use firetuner, i'll try to run a game with it the next weekend i don't work overtime...
but i'm pretty sure it's the game itself, not the mods.



one thing that i observed however:

i always start in the ancient era, and the 1st luxury ressource my capital city wants is...
neutronium.

good luck finding that when still in ancient era...

it prevents me to fullfill the needs of the city for a loooong time, preventing me to speed up the population growth for almost all of the game.

the problem is already there in vanilla game, however you can alway see the luxury resources, and the tech to get them all is pretty much in the early game.
 
my Civ5 vanilla game crashes constantly since last december's patch

That's a real problem. My own client was crashing pretty often until I updated my video card drivers, but since I've just spent the last week or two tracking down a crash bug, I'm more than willing to believe that it's just an inherent problem with the game.

i always start in the ancient era, and the 1st luxury ressource my capital city wants is...
neutronium.

I get that occasionally too, although it's not so crippling if you start in the Industrial.
(Not because you're that much closer to the tech, but because you start with 3 cities.)
So far I haven't seen any way to prevent a resource from being selected by that mechanism, and it's a really sloppy bit of programming on their side to begin with. (Seriously, strategic/luxury logic aside, you shouldn't select something with a tech prerequisite you haven't met, and it's not exactly tough to check.)

It looks like I can override this in Lua, though, by making the game re-select if you don't have that resource unlocked. I'll try to get that into the next version if I can; I'd worry about about overhead, though, checking each city of each player at the start of each turn.
 
My current game:

Size=huge, speed=marathon, level=prince.

Entered classical era - turn 252.
Completed researching Ancient era - turn 283. (got one tech from ruins)
Completed researching Classical era - turn 379.
Entered Medieval era - turn 410.

I don't experience any sluggishness or long end of turn yet, loading a saved game takes forever but it's the same without any mod installed.

I've reached 33AD, seems very balanced, very hard to maintain happiness and earning some extra gold while trying to expand, so far very good. The only way to afford spending gold is by raiding barbarians, so increasing a little bit the density of the barbarians can help.

I've a problem regarding The hanging Gardens, the bonus is +1 population in each city, it's fine for vanilla, but with your mod it's suicide, should give happiness as well, at least as much as unhappiness it causes to balance itself out.
 
The only way to afford spending gold is by raiding barbarians, so increasing a little bit the density of the barbarians can help.

In my experience there are a few other ways to break even on money, without needing barbarians.
1> The Wealth process, which converts production into gold. Almost never gets used in the vanilla game, but it's actually very handy; once you get Factories and such, or once you hit Nuclear Fission and your mines' production increases, then the ratio is good enough that you might just want to set many core cities to this, instead of using the old build-and-disband cheat.
2> Improve the base gold of your cities. The new national treasury wonder thingy, a larger emphasis on Trading Posts, using Great Merchants to make a Customs House, and so on. The Customs House, especially, becomes VERY valuable in the long term, and I'm working right now on a change to make it even more so.
3> Start a Golden Age (which ties back to happiness and great people). Even if you can't break even during a normal turn, you'll make a nice profit in the GAs. In my last game I'd lose 20 gold a turn on a normal turn but make +100 per turn in a GA; by careful use of my leaders, I did just fine.
4> Make sure you're not building every building you possibly can; just because you CAN build that Opera House in your low-culture city doesn't mean it's a smart idea to. When you conquer a city, go through and delete whatever you can't afford/don't need (especially Harbors and Barracks).
The only buildings that are absolutely no-brainers to keep/build are those with no maintenance, like the Markets or City Walls. For culture, happiness, and research, the first tier or two of buildings (Monument, Temple, Colosseum, Library, maybe University) are also definitely worth the cost, but beyond that you have to start considering the balance, because the ratios get worse. So while your core cities should definitely look into the Theater, Stadium, Opera House, Museum, and the various military buildings, they're no longer no-brainers for EVERY city.
This also becomes very pronounced in the future eras, since I've added several buildings with negative happiness (most notably the Children's Creche (-1) and Genejack Factory (-2)). You start having to seriously consider whether it's worth building all of those; the answer is almost always yes, but it's not automatic.
5> Plan your trade routes out better, and take your time getting new cities linked up. Don't make a massively long road connection; build some Harbors instead. (This is a big advantage for the Iroquois.) If a new city is 6 hexes away from its neighbors, and you connect them with a railroad, then the new city will need to be size ~7 before you even break even on the land trade route, barring any wonders or policies that tweak this.
Obviously a land route has other benefits, but you get what you pay for.
6> Sell resources to the AIs for cash instead of asking for a resource in return. The AI's pretty bad about hooking up multiple deposits of a luxury, so in some games you have no choice but to do this early on. But in my last game I had 5 Cotton, so I'd sell the extras to various civs for ~300 gold apiece for a 30-turn agreement. That's +40 gold per turn from the spares, which allowed me to run a deficit normally.
Obviously, giving the AI players more happiness will hurt you in the long term, so it's not money for nothing. But if you're careful about this, and only trade to the weaker AIs, this can help you stay afloat during the tough stretches.

By the late game, once you have a decent-sized empire, you'll have plenty of money. I'm still working on the balance at that end; in my last game (Ancient start, game stalled in the Nuclear for technical reasons) I was getting +150 gold per turn in a normal turn, +400ish in a golden age.

I've a problem regarding The hanging Gardens, the bonus is +1 population in each city, it's fine for vanilla, but with your mod it's suicide, should give happiness as well, at least as much as unhappiness it causes to balance itself out.

The difference between vanilla and my mod is slim for this; vanilla is 1 unhappiness per population, I'm 1.2. The only difference is that in vanilla you often have a much bigger happiness buffer to work with, and that was one of the reasons I changed this in the first place. But I've seen this same scenario play out in vanilla; you build the Hanging Gardens and suddenly drop into severe unhappiness. The AI never has to worry about that because they'll almost always have a massive happiness built up, while the human will settle new cities to stay near 0. But there's no reason you can't delay building that new city if you're getting close to building the Gardens. (And that's a good thing. In vanilla, it's too advantageous to make as many small cities as possible, which the AI would never do; in the short term you might be limited, but eventually you'll be unstoppable. Giving the player a good reason not to settle as often as possible is one of the cornerstones of the Balance mod.)

The thing is, growth is a two-edged sword that benefits you in the long run; sure, you'll basically need the equivalent of an extra luxury or more just to stay even on happiness in the short term, but your cities will be much more productive, produce more research and trade route gold, and so on. Even if it drops you into negative happiness, you won't have enough cities to go THAT far down; build/buy a Colosseum or two, or trade for a new luxury, or bribe a new city-state, and you're set.

There's just no way that I'd give the Hanging Gardens enough happiness to balance out the unhappiness caused by its growth. If you had 5 cities, then that's -6 Happiness, which'd take a Wonder in its own right to negate. Now, what I can do is what I did to the Human Genome Project (which has the same basic effect): add a token +1 or +2 Happiness to your empire. Just enough to make up for that extra 0.2, but not enough to break even. (The HGP will come when you have a dozen or more cities, so obviously +1 population can really hurt your happiness there despite the +1 happiness it also gives. And then consider the Cloning Vats, which give +2 population and no extra happiness...)
The other advantage of doing this is something I've run into in several games now: there are a handful of Wonders, mostly early ones, that have no "persistent" effect. Capturing a city that has the Hanging Gardens in it drastically increases your score (which makes the AIs hate you more), but you get almost nothing out of it. So adding even a token amount of happiness would help with this.

This sort of unhappiness issue also encourages players who want to follow the growth-at-all-costs strategy (whether the Hanging Gardens or just normal growth) to go out of their way for policies and wonders that reduce unhappiness (the Piety branch, the Forbidden Palace) instead of going for the Rationalism-style boosts that'd stack with the increased research from larger cities. So it's self-regulating; if your empire's growth is causing unhappiness to rise too quickly, start shifting to things like Production Focus to slow down your cities' growth and/or put more emphasis on gaining happiness.

The alternative is to change the Hanging Garden's effect to something less problematic, like "all cities get +10% to food production". I've done this for the Longevity Vaccine; you get increased growth, without the instantaneous jump in unhappiness. But I'd prefer not to alter the existing wonders.
 
In my experience there are a few other ways to break even on money, without needing barbarians.

I was referring to the very early stages, before all the techs that enable your mini "make some gold" guide, the first 350-400 turns, on Marathon, Huge map which I like to play.

The AI never has to worry about that because they'll almost always have a massive happiness built up

How does it do it?

Thanks
 
I was referring to the very early stages

Ah. Well, THAT early in the game, your main recourse is just to not incur the expenses in the first place. Don't make a lot of units, don't build a lot of buildings, that sort of thing. It's a bit different than playing in the vanilla game.

It also depends on the local resources. All of the Plantation resources add +2G, along with Ivory, Fur, Marble, Pearls, Gold, and Silver; Gems add +3G. Whales only add +1G but also add food. Plus, the gold value of the terrain improvements; putting putting a Mine on Gems/Gold/Silver (+1G), Camp on Ivory/Fur (+1G), Fishing Boats on Fish (+2G) or Whales/Pearls (+1G), or any Plantation (+1G, although Sugar also gets +1F).
So a lot of luxury tiles get +3G; depending on your start, you can make a good amount of money depending on what's around the nearby city sites.

How does it do it?

At least part of it is that the AI just doesn't expand very quickly. The player can almost always beat the AI to the good city sites, because the AI just won't pump out Settlers until he's got a good Happiness buffer going. We complain about the AI being too sluggish in the expansion race, but it's going at a pace that allows it to avoid the massive happiness problems a player who stays closer to 0 has.
Also, the AI seems to really prioritize happiness buildings. Capture an enemy city and you might seize three buildings, and one of them will almost always be a Colosseum. (This is one of the reasons I lowered the Happiness of that building.) Part of this might be that the AI has a flag in GlobalAIDefines:
AI_ATTEMPT_RUSH_OVER_X_TURNS_TO_BUILD = 15
If that means what I think it means, then anything taking more than 15 turns (on Standard speed) to build might be rush-bought by an AI having enough money. The Colosseum should take just over that amount for most starting cities, which implies to me that the AI might be spending its early cash to rush a Colosseum in each available city.

I'm not convinced that the AI doesn't cheat, though. Some of the Happiness values I've seen for the AI were just a bit too high to be explained through what they had.
 
Okay, I'm working on the next version, but it looks like I won't get it finished until the end of this weekend (probably after the Super Bowl). The changes aren't nearly as extensive as in the past two versions. But I want to add a couple more questions to the Feedback list I put at the end of the last version's notes:

7> I raised the strategic resource requirements for most top-end units a couple patches ago. So the Gravtank, for instance, requires both one unit of Dilithium (for its power source) and one of Neutronium (for its armor), and Titans require 4 or more units spread across several resources. The Gravtank is really the first unit to require two different resources, and I realized as I was playing that I sort of liked that dynamic; at one point I beelined for Gravtanks only to realize that I hadn't unlocked Neutronium yet and so couldn't build the things. And that got me thinking about some of the earlier resources that became worthless in the late game, specifically Iron and Oil. (Uranium and Coal can be used for +production buildings, Horses are just going to be obsolete in the long run, period, unless I make a "glue factory" or "McDonald's Hamburgers" building.)
So, my idea was: make more units require two resources. The Modern Armor would be 1 Aluminum and 1 Oil, as would the Stealth Bomber, Skimmer, and Vertol. Since the Skimmer and Vertol are endgame units (don't upgrade to anything else), this means Oil would remain somewhat important indefinitely. Likewise, the Powersuit units would require Uranium and Aluminum.
And you could go back to earlier eras, with Knights/Lancers/etc. requiring both Iron and Horses, and Tanks/Bombers requiring Iron and Oil. Naval units could use more resources, too, like having Destroyers require Oil, although doing that would require me to add yet another Secondhand unit for the city-state faction to use.

Any thoughts?

8> The balance between the Great Person buildings (Academy, Customs House, Manufactory, Landmark, Citadel, and Monolith) and those units' other abilities.
I gave each of these buildings +2 at the late Industrial/Early Nuclear, and then again in the early Nanotech. I've been looking at a third (or first, depending on perspective) increase in the early Renaissance, because many of those techs just don't DO enough and I like the idea of the Academy and such becoming steadily more valuable as time goes on. But I think a third +2 is too much, especially in light of my recent changes to the Farm/Mine/Post bonuses, so should I just change it to +1s for the increases?
Bottom line, do people build these in games starting in the Ancient Era, or do you still use the Great People solely for their one-shot effects (free tech, trade mission, culture bomb)?
 
So, my idea was: make more units require two resources. The Modern Armor would be 1 Aluminum and 1 Oil, as would the Stealth Bomber, Skimmer, and Vertol. Since the Skimmer and Vertol are endgame units (don't upgrade to anything else), this means Oil would remain somewhat important indefinitely. Likewise, the Powersuit units would require Uranium and Aluminum.

Any thoughts?

I haven't played with your latest patch so can't say if this is still an issue, but on Lakes maps I was repeatedly having a very hard time coming by any resources for the later game units. My games were ending up being battles between the Laser infantry units, because all the other units which didn't require resources (such as artillery and Mechanized Infantry) were superseded, and no one had any of the resources necessary to build the more advanced units.

D
 
Horses are just going to be obsolete in the long run, period, unless I make a "glue factory" or "McDonald's Hamburgers" building

Have mercy man, look around you, Horse Racing Tracks, excellent source for gold & happiness, even more with Radio/TV, the Colosseum of modern times.
 
Horse Racing Tracks, excellent source for gold & happiness

Actually, before I even started this mod I'd proposed adding two buildings, the Racetrack and the Steel Mill, to use up your obsolete Horses and Iron, respectively. The thing is, the Racetrack would be almost exactly the same as the Circus, statwise (a source of happiness if you have a local supply), so it just felt redundant. The thought then was to make the Circus actually CONSUME a unit of Horses instead of just needing a local supply, but that would hardly make a dent in the overall amounts since it's limited to a small number of cities.

There's also a huge balance issue. Being able to make yet another happiness building in each city would add a huge amount to your empire. So, it couldn't be more than +1 happiness, and I'd have to take that +1 away from either the Theater or Stadium to keep it balanced, and I think I've nerfed those down enough in the last few patches. I could pull it from the Hologram Theater, but I wanted this to be in a balance mod. Then I thought to add a negative happiness to, say, the Factory; that'd definitely change the balance of things, though.

Darsnan said:
I haven't played with your latest patch so can't say if this is still an issue, but on Lakes maps I was repeatedly having a very hard time coming by any resources for the later game units.

Yes, the latest patch improves this a bit, but not THAT much. I didn't assess the balance on non-World maps like that (mainly Continents, Small Continents, Archipelago, and Pangaea), so I can understand why Lakes or Great Plains would have a strange distribution of resources. But were there NO hills on that map? You should have had some Aluminum, at least, which would have given you the Skimmer, Vertol, Plasma Artillery, Needlejet, the powersuits...

I'm going to assume that you didn't have Dilithium, because with that you'd have been able to get more Aluminum. For that, I've been trying to figure out a way to put dilithium in lakes and still have cities be able to use it. The problem is that lakes aren't a water plot type, they're actually a LAND tile that's flagged "impassable" and handled as a Feature. So in theory, a hovering worker unit (like the Former) would be able to improve them; I might just set the Labor Mech to be able to move across impassable terrain, and this'd allow you to improve lake dilithium tiles. Except that the Labor Mech requires a unit of Dilithium; this might be a problem. (Trade/bribe for a supply, upgrade an Engineer, and then harvest your own domestic supply for when the deal ends? But if there are no oceans, then no one would have a supply to start the chain.)
If I do this, then I'll also place Fish in lakes. You'll see them from the beginning, but won't be able to improve them until you get to Labor Mechs, which I suppose seems silly but I can't see a way to make Work Boats use lakes without being horribly abuseable. But you'll still get the food boost for the fish, even before then.

Regardless of the Dilithium, though, you should have had Omnicytes and Neutronium, which should have let you use the four Psi units: the Golem, the Ranger, and the Troll. Even just Omnicytes gets you the Psi units, and the Brood Pit makes more Omnicytes, so you should have had plenty. And if you feel that Laser Infantry are preferable to Mindworms, then I'm going to have to totally rebalance those units.

And like I said above, Aluminum would have given you most of the rest; if you're not getting Aluminum (no hills at all?) then you're probably not getting much Neutronium either, but Neutronium has a hard set to place one unit per starting civ on the map, so if you had none then SOMEONE must have had plenty. (By that phase of the game you should have expanded enough to take up three or four civs' areas.)
 
I haven't played with your latest patch so can't say if this is still an issue, but on Lakes maps I was repeatedly having a very hard time coming by any resources for the later game units.

I found the problem. It's not my fault, and I can't fix it.

In AssignStartingPlots.lua are routines that set the number of units of a resource in each deposit. So the script decides it needs a Large deposit of Aluminum, and this routine tells it that this means 8 units. There's one routine for major deposits and one for minor. When I added my three new strategics, I added three more arguments to these subroutines.

The problem is that the Lakes map script has its OWN version of this routine, because I guess they weren't happy with the default resource sizes. (It makes sense, in a way, because that script will have far less ocean, marsh, rivers, etc. and so some rarities would change. But it'd have been far smarter to make an array of multipliers for each mod, and just modify the base values, with weight=1 for any new resource.)

But that means that when you run my Content mod with a map script like Lakes, it'll use my version of AssignStartingPlots, but then overwrite the GetMajor subroutine with the one in Lakes.lua, dropping those last three arguments. So the first time it tries to place a large deposit of Omnicytes, Neutronium, or Dilithium, the entire script will crash and no further resources will be placed, because the amount will still be set to a null.

Bottom line, the following map scripts are not and never will be compatible with the Content mod:
> Great Plains
> Lakes
> Highlands

I'll put a disclaimer in the first post.
 
Hi Spatzimaus,


My current game:
Size=huge, speed=marathon, level=prince.
Entered classical era - turn 252.
Completed researching Ancient era - turn 283. (got one tech from ruins)
Completed researching Classical era - turn 379.
Entered Medieval era - turn 410

Wanted to add some new info:
Entered Renaissance era - turn 721
Completed researching Medieval era - turn 808

I also had and still have some crashes to desktop, started around turn 681 - 770AD, about every 10 to 20 turns, got worse around turn 900 - 1420AD, almost every second turn, tried everything (clean boot, cleared cashes, disabled zone-alarm, played on dx9), the game by itself played smooth but crashed a lot, now at turn ~930 no more crashes for about 20 turns in a row, playing with DX11, looks fine for the moment.

One final question, isn't a Research Agreement kind of a cheat? for 900 gold and 90 turns I get a free tech, while at the same time each tech is 45-50 turns. Is there a limit on having research agreements? I see a lot of pop ups about new research agreements, so the AI definitely knows how to tech race with this.

I've reached 1500AD, so far excellent mod, I'd raise the cost of techs a bit, the cost of research agreements and/or force the agreement to take much longer, it's now way too easy, you plunder six barbarian camps and you got yourself half a tech (reading the help about research agreement it says 20 turns to get a free tech, must be a mistake).
 
One final question, isn't a Research Agreement kind of a cheat? for 900 gold and 90 turns I get a free tech, while at the same time each tech is 45-50 turns. Is there a limit on having research agreements?

It has a few limits. Mainly:
> You can only have one RA with each AI civ at a time.
> Both civs have to chip in the 900 gold, and what are the chances that some other civ will have enough money to spare right when you do?
> If you go to war with the civ during those 90 turns, neither of you gets a tech and you just lose the money.
> As the game progresses and the AI starts to hate you more, they'll stop offering even RA trades and start asking for something extra. If you start pulling ahead this happens more often.

But the real drawback, at least in the earlier eras, is just the cash. It takes TIME to acquire that much cash. If the game is reaching a point where you have so much cash that the RA cost doesn't take long to get, then I need to tweak the costs upward again. (I've already done so twice before, they used to be MUCH cheaper.)

(reading the help about research agreement it says 20 turns to get a free tech, must be a mistake).

On Standard speed, Small map size, Prince difficulty, it's 30 turns. It gets multiplied by the game speed multipliers, so on Marathon it's 90. There are actually two different timers in the GlobalDefines, one 20 and one 30, and I don't know how they differ.

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I played a test game last night, Industrial start, King difficulty. Rome beat me to the spaceship by ONE TURN, but Russia is a good 10 techs ahead of me now, and Japan has the largest empire. (The fact that I had no Oil or Aluminum in my territory hurt a bit.) I could probably still win a diplomatic win, and MAYBE a military one, but it'd be tough.

The problem seems to be the AI multipliers. Specifically, on Prince, almost everything is at 100%, EXCEPT:
> Units only cost the AIs 85% of their listed amounts
> Units require 20% less support for the AI (this is big)
> Upgrades cost half as much gold as for a player (this is actually set to 50% on all difficulties). This one was done to encourage the AI to keep its units upgraded.
In the vanilla game these aren't too bad, but with the changes I made, these can mean the difference between having a large gold surplus and barely breaking even. Especially the upgrade multiplier; it's a real challenge for the player to afford to keep all of his units up-to-date, but the AI has no problems, and that's just not fair.

There's also just a massive Happiness imbalance if you play on a higher difficulty than Prince (even King), because of the UnhappinessMod. On King it's 90%, which doesn't sound so bad, but like food, it's all a matter of the differential. (+10% food might mean you go from 20-18 to 22-18, doubling your growth speed. Likewise, -10% unhappiness might take you from 110-100 to 110-90.) But the math still seems a little out of whack even on Prince, so there might be something else going on for the AI as well.

I'm going to try to get a new version out later tonight. Among other things, I made a mistake on the custom notifications, so you'd get a popup every turn when someone had any one of my custom-effect Wonders (Planetary Datalinks, Nethack Terminus, Dream Twister, Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, Space Elevator). Since a few of these are national wonders, it's a lot of spam as the game goes on.
 
Quick status update: I ran into a small technical problem, so it's not looking like I'll get the new version out tonight. Monday night is most likely; I'd like the new version to be done before this thread hits 10,000 views (at 9753 now).

I also discovered one thing in a test game: it SUCKS to be India now. Doubling the per-city unhappiness means that founding a new city immediately deducts 8 happiness; if you're starting in a later era, where the city might be size ~3, it's even worse and you're looking at 10+ per new city. While in the long term you might come out ahead on happiness, it makes it very hard to expand your empire to the level it needs to be.

What's even worse: capturing a new city and annexing it will cost you TWENTY happiness. Until you build a Courthouse, and then it all goes away. And that's something I've been wondering. Pre-patch, I thought that building a courthouse just moved a captured city from the "bad" happiness equation (5 + 1.34*pop) to the "good" one (2 + 1*pop). But it's definitely not doing that now; captured cities with a Courthouse have NO unhappiness. That just seems wrong; it means that going on a conquering spree is great, since you won't get any unhappiness and will get tons of benefits from your new cities.
Has anyone else noticed this?
 
I found the problem. It's not my fault, and I can't fix it.

when you run my Content mod with a map script like Lakes, it'll use my version of AssignStartingPlots, but then overwrite the GetMajor subroutine with the one in Lakes.lua, dropping those last three arguments. So the first time it tries to place a large deposit of Omnicytes, Neutronium, or Dilithium, the entire script will crash and no further resources will be placed, because the amount will still be set to a null.

Bottom line, the following map scripts are not and never will be compatible with the Content mod:
> Great Plains
> Lakes
> Highlands

Well, thats too bad about the issue - I really like the Lakes style maps and the way the game played in this environment.
At least you were able to diagnose the problem and make people aware of it.

I'll be swinging back around to your mod in a couple of weeks. Do you recommend (or want help playtesting) any specific style map?

D
 
It has a few limits. Mainly:
> You can only have one RA with each AI civ at a time.
.
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But the real drawback, at least in the earlier eras, is just the cash. It takes TIME to acquire that much cash. If the game is reaching a point where you have so much cash that the RA cost doesn't take long to get, then I need to tweak the costs upward again. (I've already done so twice before, they used to be MUCH cheaper.)

At the moment I'm running three RA, I could have been dealing out more, I just refused some offers thinking that I shouldn't help the AI too much, but shortly later, I've noticed by reading the pop-up that a party of RA is going on non stop among the rest of the AI so I Joined the party just to survive the tech race.

I'm definitely voting for more costly RA(much more).
 
I'll be swinging back around to your mod in a couple of weeks. Do you recommend (or want help playtesting) any specific style map?

I generally play on Continents or Small Continents myself. The North/South and East/West maps shouldn't be substantially different. It's the others I worry about, and mainly a question of resource balance:
> On a Pangaea-type map, does the lack of ocean access mean that the central civilizations have too hard a time getting Dilithium? (This was also my concern about the Lakes/Great Plains style.)
> On an Archipelago/TinyIslands map, does the lack of land make the resources pack in TOO much? (Do you get it where every tile has a resource and you find yourself settling on top of them too often?)
> On a Terra map, is there enough of a reason to even bother worrying about the New World; conversely, is it just TOO good now to be the first to get there? (And what does that do for an Industrial/Nuclear start?)

The thing is, I not only added three new resources, I increased the chances of resources spawning even beyond what was needed to account for the new resources. This just has the potential to really throw off some of the balances.

LetMyPeopleGo said:
I just refused some offers thinking that I shouldn't help the AI too much

As you noted, if you don't then they'll just do it with each other. The best possible outcome is for you to have an agreement with everyone else and not leave them the opportunity to make them with each other. You'll get half a dozen techs, they'll each get one. Of course, you have to spend far more money to get this.
It's a lot like tech trading was in Civ4, except replace "first civ to reach a given tech" with "first civ to offer the agreements". So in that way it's an improvement; in Civ4 you could easily get half a dozen free techs out of one tech's research if you traded well. RAs, at least, have a cost.

Anyway, here are the gold costs of agreements, depending on the current Era of the higher of the two civs: (Vanilla game cost is in parentheses where it's different)
Ancient: 150
Classical: 200
Medieval: 250
Renaissance: 300 (250)
Industrial: 350 (300)
Nuclear: 400 (350)
Digital: 500 (400 in Future)
Fusion: 600
Nanotech: 800
Transcendence: 1000 (although not much point in this)
(And again, playing on Marathon multiplies these by 3, I think.)

In my experience the price in the first few eras is just fine, as your income won't be much and you'll be lucky to save up enough to afford even one agreement. So the question is, at what point do these agreements become affordable? If you're getting to where in the Industrial Era you suddenly have a massive gold surplus, then I could start increasing the prices sooner, but really, the bigger issue might be that you have that surplus to begin with, and I need to reassess the balance of gold production.

Also, it's hard to really assess balance if your civ is consistently running away from the pack and getting every Wonder. So playing on easier difficulties doesn't help here; conversely, playing on King or higher means that the AI will naturally have a huge gold surplus due to its lower costs, and that means more agreements between the AIs.

Caveat: this price change only happens in the Content mod. If you use only the Balance mod you'll pay vanilla prices.
 
Hi Spatzimaus, I'm playing with both your mods from the start, Prince - Marathon - Huge - England.

I totally agree with you about RA being the tech trade for civ 5. I'll take your advice and do some active RA participating with the AI as soon as have the gold and the tech.

I've taken your economics 101 seriously:

In my experience there are a few other ways to break even on money, without needing barbarians.
1> The Wealth process, which converts production into gold. Almost never gets used in the vanilla game, but it's actually very handy; once you get Factories and such, or once you hit Nuclear Fission and your mines' production increases, then the ratio is good enough that you might just want to set many core cities to this, instead of using the old build-and-disband cheat.
2> Improve the base gold of your cities. The new national treasury wonder thingy, a larger emphasis on Trading Posts, using Great Merchants to make a Customs House, and so on. The Customs House, especially, becomes VERY valuable in the long term, and I'm working right now on a change to make it even more so.
3> Start a Golden Age (which ties back to happiness and great people). Even if you can't break even during a normal turn, you'll make a nice profit in the GAs. In my last game I'd lose 20 gold a turn on a normal turn but make +100 per turn in a GA; by careful use of my leaders, I did just fine.
4> Make sure you're not building every building you possibly can; just because you CAN build that Opera House in your low-culture city doesn't mean it's a smart idea to. When you conquer a city, go through and delete whatever you can't afford/don't need (especially Harbors and Barracks).
The only buildings that are absolutely no-brainers to keep/build are those with no maintenance, like the Markets or City Walls. For culture, happiness, and research, the first tier or two of buildings (Monument, Temple, Colosseum, Library, maybe University) are also definitely worth the cost, but beyond that you have to start considering the balance, because the ratios get worse. So while your core cities should definitely look into the Theater, Stadium, Opera House, Museum, and the various military buildings, they're no longer no-brainers for EVERY city.
This also becomes very pronounced in the future eras, since I've added several buildings with negative happiness (most notably the Children's Creche (-1) and Genejack Factory (-2)). You start having to seriously consider whether it's worth building all of those; the answer is almost always yes, but it's not automatic.
5> Plan your trade routes out better, and take your time getting new cities linked up. Don't make a massively long road connection; build some Harbors instead. (This is a big advantage for the Iroquois.) If a new city is 6 hexes away from its neighbors, and you connect them with a railroad, then the new city will need to be size ~7 before you even break even on the land trade route, barring any wonders or policies that tweak this.
Obviously a land route has other benefits, but you get what you pay for.
6> Sell resources to the AIs for cash instead of asking for a resource in return. The AI's pretty bad about hooking up multiple deposits of a luxury, so in some games you have no choice but to do this early on. But in my last game I had 5 Cotton, so I'd sell the extras to various civs for ~300 gold apiece for a 30-turn agreement. That's +40 gold per turn from the spares, which allowed me to run a deficit normally.
Obviously, giving the AI players more happiness will hurt you in the long term, so it's not money for nothing. But if you're careful about this, and only trade to the weaker AIs, this can help you stay afloat during the tough stretches.

Hence the tons of gold I've to spend

8> The balance between the Great Person buildings (Academy, Customs House, Manufactory, Landmark, Citadel, and Monolith) and those units' other abilities.
I gave each of these buildings +2 at the late Industrial/Early Nuclear, and then again in the early Nanotech. I've been looking at a third (or first, depending on perspective) increase in the early Renaissance, because many of those techs just don't DO enough and I like the idea of the Academy and such becoming steadily more valuable as time goes on. But I think a third +2 is too much, especially in light of my recent changes to the Farm/Mine/Post bonuses, so should I just change it to +1s for the increases?
Bottom line, do people build these in games starting in the Ancient Era, or do you still use the Great People solely for their one-shot effects (free tech, trade mission, culture bomb)?

I've built the custom house and academy quite early, now at the Renaissance era looking back it was a waste of GP, I still get +5 from each and by building a bank or a university I can get out of the buildings much more then from the GP buildings. It should be more from the beginning and not just +1, maybe later in the game you can add +1 and if the city has a certain resource the GP building will produce even more, a Custom House + Gold, Manufactory + Iron or Coal or Cotton or tow of them with even a greater output, Academy + Uranium or one of the new exotic resources, Citadel + Horses, Landmark + incense, these are just examples, may be not the right matches, but later in the game before using the GP for a building I'll choose the right city with the right resource for it, and you don't have to send the poor horses to a glue factory.




BTW what happened on page one with all the smilies?

I stopped playing due to massive crashes to desktop, logged into steam for a solution just to find out I'm two patches behind.(I don't let steam to go on-line by default)
I've just finished updating the game, I hope my saves will work now and more important, the crashes will stop, I read the update release information and it addressed some crash problems.

Waiting for your mod update.
 
I've built the custom house and academy quite early, now at the Renaissance era looking back it was a waste of GP, I still get +5 from each and by building a bank or a university I can get out of the buildings much more then from the GP buildings.

Be careful with this logic. +5 doesn't sound like a lot, but remember that nearly every building uses a multiplier, so adding a base value is huge.

For instance, let's say a city has 9 people in it, plus a Library and University. That gives it 15.6 research per turn ( (9+3)*(1+0.3) ).
City + Public School =20.4 (12 * (1+0.3+0.4))
City + Academy = 22.1 ( (12+5) * (1+0.3))
But there's no reason you can't do both.
City + PS + Academy = 28.9 ( (12+5) * (1+0.3+0.4))
(This assumes the Academy is +5, which I'll get to in a second)
So with the multipliers, the +5 from an Academy starts being more like +8 or +9 ACTUAL beakers thanks to the University and such, and this gets more pronounced as the game goes on.

It should be more from the beginning and not just +1, maybe later in the game you can add +1

I'm confused on this one. What's the +1 you're referring to? Custom Houses and Academies and such should provide 4-5 of their respective yields. If you mean "they're barely +1 better to work than an improved resource tile" then sure. Or are you referring to my suggestion to reduce the tech increases from +2 down to +1, saying that instead of +1 it should be more like "+1 and another +1 if you have gold"? Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a resource-related tech yield increase in the XML. I'm sure I could code it in Lua, if need be, but I'd prefer to keep this in the XML since it's so rare that you'll have these. And after playing with it a bit, I think it's safe to keep at +2.

And that leads us to something that I'm putting in the next version.
In the Content mod, each GP improvement gets two +2 boosts, one in the late Industrial/early Nuclear, one in the late Fusion/early Nanotech. I've now added a third boost, in the BALANCE mod, adding +2 in the early Renaissance. (At Printing Press, Physics, Banking, Gunpowder, and I think Metallurgy. You can guess which improvement goes with each.)

So the Academy, for instance, gets +2 research at Physics, another +2 at Atomic Theory, and then a final +2 at Homo Superior. The Manufactory and Customs House work similarly, with three boosts to production and gold, respectively, making tiles with those improvements unequalled in their specialties.
The Citadel, Landmark, and Monolith are different. The Citadel, for instance, starts with its defense boost of course. But its improvements are gold, production, and research, meaning a Citadel tile becomes an all-around good thing to work. (Landmark is food/production/gold, I think; I was trying to mimic the obelisks from SMAC for that.) Because the Monolith enters the game so late, I had to tweak it as well. Now, it starts at +3 happy (don't need to work the tile to get this) and +2 food, and increases gold by 2 in the Nanotech era (at Centauri Psi); effectively, it's like starting at +2 happy in ancient times, and getting +1 happy and +2 food as the first two boosts with +2 gold as the third.
So there are three "specialist" GP improvements and three "generalist" ones now.

The only question is whether it's now too much. Three +2s off of the existing 4-5 makes for some big numbers. So the question becomes, should I lower the base values by 1 (3-4 instead of 4-5)? Should I make the increases not be +2s? Or is it just right?
The question is this: does the yield of these improvements (MINUS the trading post or farm that would have been on the tile) give enough to make it preferable to the GP's other activated ability? For instance, I want the Customs House to give significantly more gold, in the long term, than you'd get doing a Trade Mission. Same for Academy and the free tech, or Manufactory vs. rush.

The biggest drawback of these buildings is what happens if you place one on top of a "clear" tile, and then a strategic resource is revealed to be under there. I'm trying to get it where you'll still get the resource, but if I can't, then it kinda sucks when your empire's only major Coal deposit appears underneath your Customs House and you have to choose between wasting a GP and not building Factories.
Something I've been thinking there is to make it so that if a GP improvement is destroyed (not pillaged, but removed by a worker) then you get the GP back. It shouldn't be too difficult to do, since there's a Lua event for this already and it's easy to place a new unit. This'd let you shuffle GP improvements around if you wanted to.

BTW what happened on page one with all the smilies?

I just saw that. I didn't do it; I'll try to clean it up later. The strange thing is that if someone had hacked into my account to edit the posts, it would have changed the edit date on the posts, but a couple of the affected posts haven't been touched in a week, so it looks more like a bug with the board.
The strange thing is that it's affecting ' and ".
 
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