Defensive Strikes Mechanics

[kornuletz]

How do Defensive Strikes work exactly?

The description says for Archers, 20% chance of 10% damage. Is this regardless of attacker strength, and without any maximum defensive strikes per turn?
Wouldn't enough archers make the stack invincible?

50 archers would give a high chance that 10 archers do 10% damage, thus any attacker would instantly die from defensive strikes?

I am guessing this is not how it works, so please enlighten me.

 

[Deon]

I think 10% damage is based on THEIR strength, it's not instantly -10% attacker's HP.

So it may be better against weaker enemies and worse against strong ones.

 

[ushram]

I always assumed that def strikes were not calculated into the combat odds, can anyone verify

 

[Onionsoilder]

I'm not quite sure how damage is calculated, but I do know how the activation mechanic works.

1) Only one defender may launch a defensive strike per attacker(So no instant-kill from defensive strikes).
2) Each defender may only launch a defensive strike per turn(With the exception of Blitz, Orthus' Axe, or another multiple-combat promotion)
3) If a defender is eligible, there is a X% chance of a successful defensive strike.

This means that you really don't have to worry about a stack of archers decimating your stack of attackers(or visa versa). If you want to eliminate any chance of this, the Blur spell will prevent all defensive strikes from activating, as well as First Strikes. On the other side of things, the most effective Defensive Strikers are Crossbowmen and the RoK Hero Arthedain. Both can get 100% chance to inflict 50% damage with Drill IV. Add in Blitz, and they will deliver a strike against every non-immune unit that attacks their stack.

This is all done before the combat begins, so if the attacker is hit by a defensive strike, their unit will be wounded when it engages the defender. Unlike First Strikes, any unit can use a Defensive Strike; Your Axemen might be defending, but your Archer still has a chance to damage the attacker.

 

[benana]

I always assumed that def strikes were not calculated into the combat odds, can anyone verify

I thought I remembered seeing something in the changelog fixing the combat odds for defensive strikes a while ago, but I don't see it in a quick glance at the bug thread.

 

[schlalex]

Do Defensive Strikes give XP to the unit?

 

[Emptiness]

XP is awarded for defeating units, not for injuring them (even if they are then defeated). The defensive striker does not get xp, unless that unit also happens to be the designated defender and actually defeats the attacker.

 

[a_civilian]

You get 1 xp for performing a defensive strike. You get 1 xp if you attack, lose, and withdraw (but not if you defend, lose, and withdraw). Just tested both of these.

 

[Emptiness]

I don't understand what you just said. Attackers don't perform defensive strikes, and a unit that loses combat dies - so how could it then withdraw?

 

[a_civilian]

Those are unrelated statements, in response to the claim "XP is awarded for defeating units, not for injuring them". Perhaps I should have separated them:

1) 1 xp is awarded for injuring a unit with a defensive strike.

2) 1 xp is awarded for injuring a unit by attacking and withdrawing (but no xp is awarded for defending and withdrawing).

[Edit: That might have been misleading - the experience from withdrawal doesn't depend on whether you did any damage.]

 

[Kalina]

I don't understand what you just said. Attackers don't perform defensive strikes, and a unit that loses combat dies - so how could it then withdraw?

When unit loses combat it dies unless it has chance to withdraw. You withdraw instead of dying, with few hit points left. There is no reason to withdraw from fight you won Same with defending - you withdraw from fights you'd otherwise lose.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

If we call the listed value for defensive strikes X...

Defensive strike damage = 1dX + 1dX - (2*Attacker's Level) - (2*attacker's defensive score)

The result is the percentage of their total strength that the attacker loses (so a result of 15 against an arquebus = 1.5 base strength shaved off)

 

[Emptiness]

Those are unrelated statements, in response to the claim "XP is awarded for defeating units, not for injuring them".

Ah, so I'm wrong then. I guess I haven't paid enough attention when I've had defensive strikers.

You withdraw instead of dying, with few hit points left. <snip> Same with defending - you withdraw from fights you'd otherwise lose.

That's what I meant. You withdraw instead of losing, thus you can't both lose and withdraw. Either you withdraw (and so don't die), or you lose (and so die).

I suppose you could look at it differently, saying that if you lose you then either withdraw or die. I just have a hard time taking this viewpoint, since successful withdrawal earns experience. Earning experience is a reward and so I classify withdrawal as a form of success, not as a form of failure.

 

[ushram]

I thought I remembered seeing something in the changelog fixing the combat odds for defensive strikes a while ago, but I don't see it in a quick glance at the bug thread.

I remember complaining about it awhile ago in irc with xien/vehem or others, never remembered if it was fixed or not.

 

[Cromagnum P.I.]

This means that you really don't have to worry about a stack of archers decimating your stack of attackers(or visa versa).
Decimate means reduce by factor of ten, so that is exactly what you have to worry about. Sorry for the smarmy answer but I just had to.

 

[Tasunke]

If Decimate is reduce by a factor of 10 ... then that would mean their stack of archers reducing your stack of units from 100 soldiers to 10 soldiers. Or from 10 soldiers to 1 soldier. Or from all soldier having 100 hp to all soldier having 10 hp.

So yes, this IS practically *Destroying* your stack. Therefore, the archer stack cannot "decimate" your stack merely on a Defensive Strike Principle. Therefore, they truly do not have to worry about archers decimating their stack.

 

[ADHansa]

This means that you really don't have to worry about a stack of archers decimating your stack of attackers(or visa versa).
Decimate means reduce by factor of ten, so that is exactly what you have to worry about. Sorry for the smarmy answer but I just had to.

At least where i live decimate can just as well mean reduce strength by any number, like saying that you are playing with a decimated team if you are a few guys short.

And i think the word come from the Roman punishment for cowardice in battle, where you killed every tenth soldier in the unit being punished.

I read "reduce by factor of ten" as reduce by 10%.

 

[Onionsoilder]

At least where i live decimate can just as well mean reduce strength by any number, like saying that you are playing with a decimated team if you are a few guys short.

And i think the word come from the Roman punishment for cowardice in battle, where you killed every tenth soldier in the unit being punished.

I read "reduce by factor of ten" as reduce by 10%.

"Dec" is always a factor of 10(Decimal, Decapod, etc.) so it does indeed come from Latin. With the modern usage at least, losing 1/10th of something hardly seems like it was decimated. Losing 9/10ths, does... So I'm more inclined to go with the 10/100 version.

 

[Tasunke]

Yea ... factor of 10 means multiple ... as in its either 10 times stronger or 10 times weaker.

In colloquialism from where Im from, Decimated in somewhat interchangable with "annihilated" which means mostly or completely destroyed. Certainly defeated.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Yea ... factor of 10 means multiple ... as in its either 10 times stronger or 10 times weaker.

In colloquialism from where Im from, Decimated in somewhat interchangable with "annihilated" which means mostly or completely destroyed. Certainly defeated.

Not slightly wounded.

The best First Striker I've seen (Arthendain) took off 40-50% of an attacker's health when fully promoted with Drill IV and the two other promotions(the damage and percentage) when defending against weaker units(he was strength 12, attackers were 6-8). So "Decimate" is hardly the right word.

I should also remind everyone that units with Blue ignore Defensive Strikes; If you're having trouble with them, it may be worthwhile to invest in the often ignored Shadow Mana.