Deity level strategy

[MikaO]

Hi, I've been reading this board for a while and playing the game. IMO when people post about strategies for winning the game, they should mention if it's tested with deity or chieftain or something in between. My goal is to develop a strategy that eventually will win in the deity mode. I wanted to post this because there is a thread about the "science broker" strategy. I really doubt that this strategy of getting ahead in science and then selling the advances would work in deity mode because I assume it's impossible to compete with AI in deity level in this field.

While I'm still developing my winning strategy, I think the following points should be part of that strategy.

1) Science, military or gold? Only choose one, and I'm almost sure that in Civ3 it's gold. With gold you can buy all the techs, and rushbuild military and improvements when needed.
2) Dont build crap cities, but instead when you have enough cities, just try to get them as populated as possible and always build roads everywhere and marketplaces etc. Build the initial cities as fast as possible, though. (in order to get the resorces available)
3) Build your empire tight enough, so that you wont lose any cities because of culture, but maybe win a few instead.
4) Build a good defensive military
5) If you have to enter a war (but dont ask for it!), dont go for a massive offensive, but get some good/cheap defensive forces near his capital and major cities and pillage. Try to cut him off the resource(s). At least oil!
6) Choose a religious civ and build all the religious things in order to keep your people happy and your culture high enough.

Problems:
1) If someone attacks you in early stage, you're history. In one game I only had one contact - with Germans - and although I kept them polite with gifts, they suddenly attacked. I had some defensive units but they couldnt stop the hordes of horsemen.
2) Only been playing in small and tiny maps. I dont know if the map size is relevant.

Summary:
Concentrate for gold!

 

[Kriton]

I just posted this to another thread but I thought it might be relevant here as well:

OK, although I am not usually one to give advice, I feel I must for this thread. I was horrible when I first started this game. Now, I am handling deity pretty easily (i don't mean to sound conceited, btw). Here is my strategy:

1. Choose an industrious civ if you want to get an early lead. Mine the grasslands first -- production is most important early on. Then road. Your workers do these 2 jobs in 5 steps.

2. Build a warrior first. You can use him for exploration since it's Regent. If you are getting 3 or more shields, build Archers.

3. Build a settler, ASAP. A settler costs 30 shields. VERY IMPORTANT RULE: Once your city hits pop 2, look to see how many turns to get to 3. If it's less than the time to build a settler, build a settler. If a settler will be built before pop 3, build something to fill the gap (warrior, archer/spearman, or even wall).

4. Always take a warrior with your settler and settle near grassland. Make sure you have at least one grassland in the 8 square city perimeter. You may make a city on a hill, plains, grassland, jungle, or forest -- all good (exept jungle will give you disease later on). If you build next to a river, that city will not need an aqueduct when at pop 6 to grow.

5. Only build workers when you really have to. Your first cities should not grow beyond 3 so use the first worker to go to each city and mine & road 2/3 grassland squares. Irrigate plains only if you have no grasslands. River squares give you an extra commerce.

6. The best defence is a good offence. Build archers instead of spearmen. When you have enough (maybe 4-6), take them collectively to your nearest civ opponent and have them attack all at once to take the city. When attacking units outside of a city, make sure not to attack units on a hill, over a river, or even in forest/jungle if possible to avoid.

The best advantage I believe is mining grassland to get an archer in 7 turns rather than a warrior in 5 turns. When you meet a hostile unit, the archer will kill it but the warrior may not.

Although I agree that saving your money is important and that it may be more beneficial to buy techs, I think if you play deity peacefully you will fall behind in military/expansion and you are dead.

 

[MikaO]

Well ok since you say you're handling deity level, I believe you, but I was just wondering that when you're waging war, what could that big civ in another continent be doing?
If you concentrate on shields instead of commerce you might not get enough gold to buy the advances.

 

[Moeniir]

CAVEAT: Only tested this at regent (? one above prince) so far.

The science broker strategy you cite is related to another strat covered in this board, dubbed the 'Pope strategy' ("a lot of influence,no tech research of your own,a lot of money,plus making others fight your crusades..." ), originally posted by Neo Guderian, named by The Ripper. The difference is, in the Pope strategy, you set your science rate to 10% (or 0, but I like 10%), and save gold to buy techs (as you suggested). THEN, you broker them. As I said, I've only tried this at regent (so far) but it seems to work very well. Of course, to make this effective you need to send out scouts or warriors to make contact as quickly as possible to increase your trade partners.

In my current game (Huge map, 16 civs, regent) I'll gladly pay 650 gold or more for engineering, and then sell it to every other civ for whatever they can afford - I've met 8 other civs, and I think I made about 150/turn + 400 gold total by reselling engineering. This has also worked well in smaller maps. My next new game, Im going to keep a record of my buys, sells, and trades.

It's worth noting that by the time I entered the middle ages I had started to push my science rate up some, since none of the AI researched Republic, and I wanted it. By that time the gold per turn was rolling in anyway. Also, some techs I hold for myself a little while... I was the first to get Chivalry, and kept it quiet... until someone else got it. Then I sold it to everyone else, before the AI could sell it.

 

[tetley]

You can win Deity on Pangaea/non-Huge maps by getting a really food-rich start. Irrigate your flood plains & food-bonus squares (you DO get +1 food on those squares, even in Despotism). Get a militaristic civ, hurry a grainery, hurry a barracks, then hurry out a veteran military unit every other turn. On non-Emperor/Deity levels, that alone will win it. Emperor & higher you need some diplomatic prowess along with it to take out that last civ or two.

Also, what I've learned to beat Deity: start on Tiny maps, work your way up. You learn from your mistakes much quicker on Tiny maps. But I don't know that I'll EVER learn how to beat Archipelago maps on Deity, even on Tiny. Maybe if you start with only 1 other civ and get an incredibly lucky draw with the strategic resources....

 

[Vol]

From playing Monarch.

Your first goal is to contact as many civilizations as possible. I figure you're better off playing with more. In a one-on-one vs. Deity, you're bound to lose (I think THAT is the true challenge). But if there's 15 other people to worry about, you can "fall between the cracks"

I've had fantastic success with purchasing technologies from a civlization at massive deficit (800 gold and 80 gold/turn), and then selling it to EVERY civlization for about 20 gold/turn. With 10 to 16 civilizations, it becomes a benefit. The key here is that you're keeping the table level. No civ ever gets ahead scientifically this way. And it means there is no reason at all to spend money on tech yourself, so keep people happy or raise a giant bank account.

The biggest problem is what happens when war occurs and you can no longer get techs from everyone, nor trade to everyone. If you've spent your extra money on infrastructure and have extra cash, you could find that you're able to win the tech war by investing 100% in research.

On Deity, if you're able to buy techs, and sell them back and net even 1 gold/turn, you're still getting a big advantage, even if it seems like you spent a TON buying that tech, because that part of the game is now level.

I think winning on Deity will take the most balanced strategy. Just money, just research, or just military will fail massively. Diplomacy, culture, defensive armies with a large enough offensive component, technological parity, sufficient funds, rational expansion, and even more diplomacy will result in eventual victory.

I think lots of opponents is the way to go (possibly on a small map to eliminate expansion advantage (or would that exacerbate their production bonus...?!))

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Quoting Tetley
"Irrigate your flood plains"

Hmm...does not compute you

You cannot irrigate flood plains...

PLUS I don't buy this:

"Emperor & higher you need some diplomatic prowess along with it to take out that last civ or two. "

Bollocks...the last civ or two is the easier bit SURELY if it has been you clearing out the previous opposition...

 

[Arrian]

Yes, you can irrigate flood plains - what you can't do is mine them.
And who cares if someone's a "newbie?"

-Arrian

 

[Ferd]

Tetley is exactly right. You can and should irrigate floodplains if you're using the massive despotic rush strategy. In fact, if you're lucky enough to get a floodplain with wheat on it, park a city next to it and irrigate it NOW! That one square, with a granary in the city, will allow that city to pump out an iron age unit every two turns. Even settlers every 6 turns if you want to. And here's the kicker: Corruption Schmorruption! Build it across the world if you want, and it will still produce.

Heh. If you're going to flame someone or call them a newbie, check your facts first. I find the despotic rush strategy to be almost too easy on any difficulty level below deity.

 

[Baron23]

I have never tried the despotic rush method and was just curious when you actually begin this? And how low do you keep your pop? Are you doing this already from the capital or from the second city or just when you are already established with 5-6 cities?

 

[Out4Blood]

Easiest way to win on deity is to use the food to force build troops and rush the AI. Keep all the cities and just irrigate the 2-3 best food squares. Keep your town pops down and force build the best troops you can make. Mobile units are the best to use be cause you can send them to attack and they will not die - they'll retreat. Just overwhelm the AI with units. The combat suxors - quantity wins over quality, everytime. While yer fighting, ask for peace and take all their techs - then go after the next civ. Don't kill them off - you'll need them to go to war again and get new techs. Use great leaders for wonders, not armies (except maybe to get heroic epic).

 

[Rife]

LOL, newbie? The game is only a few weeks old!

That's funny stuff

 

[tetley]

Gosh, post something that actually has content in it and get flamed. How typical. Nope, you can and do irrigate flood plains. Be my guest and try it yourself. Not only can you irrigate flood plains, but you get an extra food from it even in Despotism.

As for how do you grow your population: you don't. Not in that city. Flood plains = disease, so you're not really trying for population anyway. It's a really easy solution to disease: population 1 cities don't get disease. Plus, small city = content city. When you're hurrying 15 shields' worth a turn, you don't really NEED population. The way you grow your pop is by having the AI grow HIS cities and conquering THEM.

Now, you *DO* need diplomatic prowess to take out the last few civs on Emperor/Deity, because they tend to get a tech lead while you're taking out the first civs. Your horsemen don't do too well against the Pikemen, unless you're that civ that
gets the 3/1/2 riders (Chinese?). Their lead is only going to widen over time on the higher levels. You have to make "friends" with them early on to keep up, especially if you're not on Pangaea.

Like Out4Blood said, that means not completely taking out your early adversaries. Give them peace in exchange for techs and tribute, and...pretty much everything they've got. Use the tribute to buy techs from the last civs and overall improve your relations with them. Sell useless cities (i.e. corrupt, not too hot on food, either) for per-turn gold.

Next, unless it's a Tiny/Small Map, Middle Ages shouldn't be too far away. Get Chivalry first & upgrade to Knights (or Samurai, if you're my favorite Civ ). You do NOT have to rush to beat them to Gunpowder, because since you own more land mass, there's a very good chance someone won't get Saltpeter. That's death. And if they do, no big deal--Knights match up even-steven with Musketmen. Just don't let him get Military Tradition.

Now, backstab them. They're the last civs, who cares. Sell a city or two close to your main Barracks so those last few slow-moving units you hurry out can retake them. Negotiate one last-minute trade where you take everything you can in exchange for per-turn gold, then invade. Heck, I even went so far as to get a Right-of-Passage and marched 20 units right up next to his cities. Retake the city(s) you sold and simultaneously take over a couple on his home turf. Pillage his iron & saltpeter. It's now you with the upper hand.

 

[WUM]

i agree on out4blood and tetley.

i tried popestrategy, but techleading civs would almost never sell me their latest tech, no matter what i offered. They answered: 'sorry, can´t be done'...

so i tried the tech-broker-thing. I had much more succes. I was rich, whatever i didn´t have i bought. Science was up to 90% (90% or 100% didn´t give me a change in turn untill next tech). Problems was, when i sold my techs, the first civ that bought it paid a HIGH price. The latest usually wouldn´t give me more than 1 gold... LUMP SUM that is! Besides, i had all this money to spend, so i bought units because i had everything i wanted allready and didn´t need more wealth...
The only good thing to do afterwards is: WAR. i just had to use all these units. By this time wars were terrible and long. Almost killed the fun... almost...

So next game i tried war from the start. Regent, gotm1. Wow, now that´s good! i fell in love with immortals . I killed aztecs and zulus BC. Build a lot of vessels and in 300 AD i plan to take out the next civ. To finish of with the americans. If i don´t kill 'em all before 1000 AD i consider the game failed, since i started so well. Will be my most succesful game so far i guess.

Conclusion: on higher levels whipping pop-points for troops rules!
though tech-brokers can easily achieve peaceful victories íf they get contact early enough.

 

[mrlobber]

Haven't tried to play on highest levels yet, but if it's so how it's said here, that only the first civ pays you a good price for a new tech (on Regent level, some 8 civs out of 10 will pay you good for your scientific advances), then it means, that actually the level of diplomacy and AI's attitude towards human opponent HAS NOT BEEN improved since Civ2. I mean, if other civ's don't want to pay you anything, they are convinced that they will get the tech for free from the civ from which you got that huge price and that means that all AI's civs still consider you the ultimate agressor and act adequately stupid as in Civ2 where on Deity level they formed secret alliances against me I usually fought only against Barbarians and tried to stay in peace with AI's civs... of course, until I reached Armors, Bombers and Howitzers...

 

[Cybernut]

Is it just me, or does Deity seem rather unbalanced. Are there some (many) underhand tactics being employed by the AI. I mean, no matter how lucky I get with resources and food production, no matter how unfriendly my opponents' territories are, by the time you've built your first settler, the AI has 2-3 cities (defenders also), countless scouts, at least one tech advance more (presumably from trades), meaning contact with at least 1 other AI civ, as well as numerous workers and improvements. This just becomes more and more exacerbated as the ancient era proceeds. By the time you've built your 4th "settlement" the other AI civs have small civilisations, with pop 6 cities everywhere, settlers all over the place ... its a little absurd to say the least.

1. It seems that the AI know exactly were to go to get to the nearest AI civ.

2. The AI never finds you first. Why not? If its all fair and above-board is there not a more than a zero chance that you will be able to exchange base techs first.

3. Of course if the AI were to make an immediate b-line for each other (assuming pre-knowledge of each others' position), then that would exlain this, and cut their "exploring" time by half.

4. AI inter-trading is completely unbalanced. When one AI makes an advance, all the others' immediaitely (within a few moves) get the advance. I assume the AI opens trading discussions with every other civ at the end of every AI turn. Seems a little ridiculas that they offer you "territory map" trades once every 20 turns and nothing else. Of cource by the time they'd bother, you're probably so far behind that there's nothing worth trading for ... so they blackmail you.

5. I'm left with he conclusion that Deity equates "all the other civs" verse the human player.

6. The only ray of light I have had is when I can blackmail an AI civ for a resource (say iron) early in the game. My experience tells me that militaristic civs, or civs who require Iron etc for their special unit (Romans), will pay over-the-odds if they haven't got that resource. But this is pure luck. Even if you do luck-out with an iron resource, even if you do managed to get lucky and encounter the Romans without that resource, chances are that by the time you get Iron Working, the AI have already traded the resource between themselves. But this is just pure luck - and requires a lot of frustrating restarting.

7. I'm beginning to think that war is the only solution to Deity. None of the tech trading, or rush strategies are going to have a substantive effect. Forget about tech trading ... and rush-building has to be taken for granted.

8. You need to combine early miltary victory (encompassing and harnassing your defeated opponents infrastructure), with lucky resource inter-actions (blackmailing an opponent for all the AI advances). you can't afford to waste any moves (like chess) -don't road and mine irrelevant land. develop the basics required to run one city then immediately start building road networks and contect all aspects of your territory and potential territory.

10. I've been trying to develop a NEW TACTIC for settling my territory. The trick is to allow other civs to build in you territory, in such a way that they will be surround on at least three sides before too long. That way you are weakening your opponents expansion capabilites, while maximising your own. Perhaps even offer the carrot of a luxury or a resource to lure in the unsuspecting civ. Make sure to build a city right "on" its border, then rush a temple. It'll be yours in a few turns once your temple "expands its borders". I've haven't seen any posts that openly encourage the AI to settle in your territory. But every advantage must be taken at Deity.


But even if everything falls into place, you'll probably still lose, and lose badly! I guess that's why it's the hardest level. But I am firmly of the opinion that it's fixed. It's not a fair challenge. It's you verses the world ... that's fine in a end-game ... but the way the AI monopolises everything from the very start makes it damn near impossible! So far, I'm of the opinion that Emperor provides the best option, that's if you're interested in a challenge

And all you people who claim to have beaten deity (at normal size maps and above pls) ... prove it by posting your final saved games, and telling us how you overcame these difficulties.

I could go on all day ... but I'll stop here ...

C

 

[Ferd]

Originally posted by Cybernut
Is it just me, or does Deity seem rather unbalanced. Are there some (many) underhand tactics being employed by the AI. I mean, no matter how lucky I get with resources and food production, no matter how unfriendly my opponents' territories are, by the time you've built your first settler, the AI has 2-3 cities (defenders also), countless scouts, at least one tech advance more (presumably from trades), meaning contact with at least 1 other AI civ, as well as numerous workers and improvements. This just becomes more and more exacerbated as the ancient era proceeds. By the time you've built your 4th "settlement" the other AI civs have small civilisations, with pop 6 cities everywhere, settlers all over the place ... its a little absurd to say the least.

That's the general idea. In Civ2, it was pretty easy for most gamers to win even at deity level. So they cranked up the handicap to give us a challenge.

Did you see the quote that when the game was released it was "theoretically possible" to win at deity difficulty, but noone at Firaxis had been able to do it yet? And that was before all the truly psychotic gamers got ahold of it? Millions of customers do a bang-up job testing your product, and finding not only the bugs, but the imbalances as well. They have to give the AI civs serious advantages, because they won't know how to take advantage of exploits and imbalances.

I doubt they give the AI civs recon advantages, but I have seen that their production cost is cut to 60% at deity level. Establish an embassy and take a good look at the city screen of the enemy capital. It would be very hard if not impossible to expand faster than they do. How can you compete with cities that only need 12 extra food to get population increases (that's BEFORE they build the pyramids), and 6 shields to put out a warrior or worker, or 18 shields for settlers. Not to mention that Pyramids which would cost me 400 shields only cost them 240. Also notice how much unhappiness they don't have.

Since you can't hope to out-produce them or out-research them, you have to let them build the cities and wonders and research the techs, then you arrange to acquire them somehow. War and diplomacy, that's what it's all about.

There is a possibility that they start the game with contact with everyone on the same continent except me. Seems by the time I contact them they already have contact with each other. (And
they won't sell me contact no way no how!) But that might just be because it takes me so long to build my warrior and find them that the expansionist among them may have already scouted out the entire continent, and traded contact as well as all the techs they already have.

Yes it's unfair. It's SUPPOSED to be unfair. If you want to play on an even field, if you don't want to have to use every trick up your sleeve just to survive, if you don't want to spend the entire game catching up, don't play at the deity level.

 

[Cybernut]

So there is some sort of imbalance then. If so fine. If that's the way it has been planned, fine. But its important people are made aware of this, or it gets very frustrating. I guess I'll just have to come up with a complete strategy u-turn from normal play. I guess that 's the ultimate challenge, and that's no bad thing!

And if this is the ultimate challenge, then it seems logical that the AI should get every conceivable advantage.

And there's no need to be so damn arrogant ... if you're so "know-it-all" post your game victories ... otherwise keep your comments to the questions raised. You haven't posted any viable strategy for defeating the AI at Deity, so you have no right to be so damn arrogant. Criticising other people, without having a solution to the problems they raise is actually pretty lame.

 

[Flynn]

Originally posted by Cybernut
And there's no need to be so damn arrogant ... if you're so "know-it-all" post your game victories ... otherwise keep your comments to the questions raised. You haven't posted any viable strategy for defeating the AI at Deity, so you have no right to be so damn arrogant. Criticising other people, without having a solution to the problems they raise is actually pretty lame.

Calm down, dude. Ferd wasn't being arrogant. He was just saying that he thought you missed the point of Deity level. That's all.

I read your post last night, and I thought the same thing. The imbalaces are huge, and that's on purpose, because it's supposed to be nearly impossible to win that way. (I'm thinking Deity is the level where Diplomatic Victory and Strategic Resources will play the greatest role.)

Personally, I hate getting whipped by my own computer. My first 3 games were on Chieftain, and I lost one of those! Trying a game as new as Civ3, nobody should be able to leap to the toughest difficulty level and win.

 

[Cybernut]

"- It's SUPPOSED to be unfair. If you want to play on an even field, if you don't want to have to use every trick up your sleeve just to survive, if you don't want to spend the entire game catching up, don't play at the deity level. -"

I asked some questions and raised some points. I didn't ask to be preached at. I don't appreciate being told what to do and what not to do.

My problem is that the nature of the gameplay on this level is not made clear. If this is really the case (all AI civs verses human player), then that amounts to a great challenge - especially given the AI's capacity at micro-management. But it should be made clear ... that's my point. Especially for new players. It doesn't matter how good you become at managing tech, finance or military at lesser levels (even emperor) ... it's all redundant at this level. All I'm asking is: has anyone got any other constructive ideas for catching and passing the AI at this level (I tried to raise some points). Rather than jumping on some oh so superior high horse and criticisng me (rather than the points I'm trying to raise), why not come up with some ideas of your own (at least I made the attempt)!

P.S. I'm not really pissed off at anyone ... was just trying to raise some specific points.