Demographics - Domestic Department

Originally posted by Immortal
Lower them even further? So your saying we lack development? Reinforcing the idea that we need to focus on improvements.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. We need to focus on improvements in those cities that don't have any! Building improvements and workers in 36 out of 49 cities (73%) while building military units in 13 (reasonably developed cities) out of 49 (27%) is focusing on improvements, isn't it?
 
We have 13 cities we want to use to build military units. We have gone 9 units above our support level, which means that for every unit we build. 1gpt is lost from our income. If we build 13 units that is 13 GPT we have lost, this is not counting what we build for workers (lets estimate we build 10 workers). Which now accounts for 23 GPT we have lost, Plan A is 30 turns long, lets suppose we have these 23 units immediately:

23*30=690 we lose 690 gold during the 30turns if we only build 1 unit per city. Suppose we build 4 per city thats 2760, more then the amount we would "save" by not upgrading.
 
I agree with donsig. While we are lacking in infastructure, we must remain on the military path. These developed cities are the best candidates for turning out the military strength we need is a reasonable time.

Remember, folks, we're not playing a chieftain game. We don't have the luxury of building marketplaces everywhere. At this critical point, it's either kill or be killed. I'm sure we can all agree it is preferable to have our units conquering cities, rather then enemy units taking ours.
 
Our military is not going to evaporate overnight, we still have the largest military in the world right now. Im still of the opinion that we need allies more then enemies right now, with the precarious situation developing in Russia and America. We need to ensure that if a state of war becomes a reality, we have enough neutral and allied nations. I do not want to completely cut military production, I think it should be below Plan A levels, I favour more of an upgrade then production.

We also do not have the luxury of keeping our science rate at 0 and our luxury rate at 0.
 
Yes, we do have the largest military in the world. We are still faced with the posibility of another nation building a larger force if we are to halt our own production.

We do not want to devote our entire nation to building up a larger force. Only select cities are needed, which will complete this production within a small matter of turns. A majority of the nation can be devoted to workers, libraries, and marketplaces! In the end, these outer cities will develop to the same amount our core cities have!

This is a win-win situation. Our military strength increases, and our cities on the fronts develop.
 
I think we are agreeing that a balance is needed, I think we simply disagree on what percentages. I favour around 15% military production.
 
Originally posted by Immortal
We have 13 cities we want to use to build military units. We have gone 9 units above our support level, which means that for every unit we build. 1gpt is lost from our income. If we build 13 units that is 13 GPT we have lost, this is not counting what we build for workers (lets estimate we build 10 workers). Which now accounts for 23 GPT we have lost, Plan A is 30 turns long, lets suppose we have these 23 units immediately:

23*30=690 we lose 690 gold during the 30turns if we only build 1 unit per city. Suppose we build 4 per city thats 2760, more then the amount we would "save" by not upgrading.
Click to expand...

We would not lose 2760g under Plan A. The breakpoints in the plan are: 14 units in 14 turns, 27 units in 22 turns and 41 units in 32 turns. That's a little over one new unit per turn on average, close to 5 new units every 4 turns. Let's use the latter figure to estimate the *cost* of Plan A.

Turn 4: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 140g (28*5)
Turn 8: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 120g (24*5)
Turn 12: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 100g (20*5)
Turn 16: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 80g (16*5)
Turn 20: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 60g (12*5)
Turn 24: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 40g (8*5)
Turn 28: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 20g (4*5)
Turn 32: 5 units built. Cost through turn 32: 0g (0*5)

The total is 560g extra expense through turn 32. That's assuming we just let all these units we're producing just sit around. I think the idea is to attack Russia around the 22 turn mark. The war will do two things. First it will lower this estimated cost even more. We may lose some units in the fighting and we will certainly capture Russian cities, and this will raise our allowed units immediately lowering the expense we incur from units. The Russian war will also likely allow us to extort some techs from Catherine tereby saving us from spending gold buying those techs.
 
Seven non-plan A cities are currently working on military units - when they would be working on improvements under Plan A:

Trakingrad is working on a pikeman and has a second pike in it's queue. This city will not grow very large for a long time due to the fact that irrigation is not readily available north of the mountain range. This city would be more useful right now producing workers.

Pensacola is recruiting a regular pikeman. This city's only improvement is a library. It is a size 5 city th
at will need an aqueduct to grow.

Zorgonzolia is also recruiting a pikeman when it has no improvements at all. The city is currently garrisoned by a knight but an integral part of Plan A is making muskets (once the saltpeter is connected) that can garrison cities such as this allowing them to concentrate solely on improvements. It is also a border city with no culture. We should switch to a library and rush it for 56g. The Plan A cities can recruit a garrison for the city.

Civanatoria is working on a pikeman when it has only a library.

Nocsfiedera has a temple and a library but is working on a pikemen. A worker would make more sense there now.

Tokyo, a border city, is recruiting a regular pikeman when it could have a temple in 5 turns.

Kagoshima, which is surrounded by foreign territory and has only a library, is recruiting a regular pikeman.

Plan A not only makes our military production much more efficient, it allows the cities that need improvements the most to get them faster.

EDIT: Make it eight cities:
Dapperdan, a size two city that is not growing, is working on a barricks when a harbor might be better.
 
Ok from the mouth of the domestic advisor: Unless we can come to some compromise we should not implement Plan A but rather come up with a plan that makes each department happy. I will not implement a plan that loses us money but gains us more net.
 
Amirsan
Many of the cities that are involved with the Plan A proposal already have sufficient city improvements inside (including marketplaces). Also, most of these cities have little corruption due to their proximity to either the Palace or the Forbidden Palace.

The revised Plan A actually inserts a courthouse into the one city in the plan that does not have corruption under control. This plan is a good compromise and should be adopted. There will remain over 35 cities that can be used to produce anything the respective governors desire.
 
I agree with Amirsan on that, we need more money! Also, a simple way to resolve the extra units payment would be to make everything needed to make our size 4-6 towns to 7+, as we are in monarchy.
 
Originally posted by donsig
We have 46 cities.
We have 35 libraries.
We 13 temples.
We have 5 universities.
We have 1 colosseum.
We have 6 granaries.
We have 2 aqueducts.
We have 3 markets.
we have 3 harbors.
We have 2 courthouses.
Click to expand...

I'm worried with some points.

We're the largest contry but only the #7 economy. Ok, we are still a monarchy, but we need more.

And it's simple to know why. Only 3 markets and 6 granaries. I don't know the number of workers, but I don't think we have enough.

Common! We have more universities (with 0% in science) then markets and courthouses!

We need a Economic Growth Plan!
 
Amirsan, Fier Canadien, Jorge Roberto and others...
I cannot wait for our gpt deals to expire, because once that happens, our revenue will actually increase!

We are currently paying Babylon 22gpt for some technology if I recall correctly. Obviously, this deal will not be renegotiated and will expire when the twenty turns have passed. We are also receiving 15 or 16gpt (not sure which) from Greece for Incense that we are selling them. This deal will quite likely be extended or improved after the initial twenty turns have lapsed.

Furthermore, everyone seems to be looking at only half of the equation with respect to the production of additional military units. As our towns grow into cities, our fiscal support for these units will also grow, and if they are called upon to liberate some cities from Russian or American control, these new cities will only serve to further reduce the cost of supporting these units, not to mention the reduction resulting from losses suffered during the campaign.

Concurrently, we certainly could use more money. But let us not confuse this need with desperation. We currently have more accumulated wealth in our treasury than all the other nations combined. We are also managing to sustain a higher income per turn than our rivals, while keeping pace in the technology race to boot.

We currently have 49 cities. The current build queues indicate that we currently have 11 cities producing military units (~22%), representing 48 of the 215 shields we produce (~22%). These numbers are considerably lower than what we should expect based on this recent poll. The average response in this poll is currently 41%, meaning that on average, Fanatikans would like to dedicate 41% of our production towards the military.

We are presently the most powerful nation in the world, but our position is a tenuous one at best. The two previous nations that occupied this spot are no longer around, their leaders exiled to some small island off in the middle of nowhere. Let us pull together to reach a healthy compromise that is consistent with the wishes of all of our citizens.

Note... We have built universities not for the research benefits, although they may serve us well one day in that respect, but rather for the culture they produce. Our scientific trait makes them an affordable source of culture production.
 
Unfortunatly, workers, temples, graneries, and every other city improvement also costs GPT. At least our military can conquer more cities to make more gold, and defend them so as no to lose more.
 
Unfortunatly, workers, temples, graneries, and every other city improvement also costs GPT. At least our military can conquer more cities to make more gold, and defend them so as no to lose more.
Click to expand...

You had 46 cities when this thread started and now have 49. That is over 1.5 times the optimum city number for your mapsize.

Every city added will result in one more totally corrupt city. Not necessarily the city added, as that might be close to your Palace or Forbidden Palace. But every city furthur from the core than the new city will be slightly more corrupt. In the end your army will capturing gpt sinks instead of gpt sources.

You have chosen the way of the warrior, which is very useful while you secure ample land to achieve critical size. That is somewhere between 1.0 and 1.5 times the optimum city number.

You are past midway through the Middle ages, which is sometimes referred to as the age of the cathedral. And you have:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by donsig
We have 46 cities.
We have 35 libraries.
We 13 temples.
We have 5 universities.
We have 1 colosseum.
We have 6 granaries.
We have 2 aqueducts.
We have 3 markets.
we have 3 harbors.
We have 2 courthouses.

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none
 
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