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Designing civ: Germany

Lord of War N02

Grand Master of the East
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
140
Location
Somewhere on Earth
What would you design Germany in CIV 7?

I have seen some suggest to have Frederick the Great returned to civ 7 while the others suggest medieval German leaders that is not Frederick Barbarossa.

For unique units, I have seen some suggest Landsknecht as unique unit and some suggest Landwehr.

My design for Germany that should be in CIV 7

Leader: Otto the Great
Unique unit 1: Schwarze Reiter
Unique unit 2: U Boat
Unique Infrastructure: Pfalz (castle)
 
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Leader: Frederick the Great - Probably something do with military. Maybe he could get the culture from kills in this game? :mischief:

Unique Infrastructure: Ruhr- Give it a proper Industrial District based off of Ruhr Valley. :)

As for the UU I really don't care if we get the U-boat, Landsknecht, Teutonic Knight, or Panzer etc. Probably make it modern because that era isn't represented yet in my design and the U-boat again to go with civ ability.

Civ ability: Hanseatic League- Trading focus with harbors and commercial hubs.

I tried to get every aspect of Germany's history with this design. I didn't want to make it like Civ 6 being mostly based off of the Holy Roman Empire considering I also want Maria Theresa to return for Austria. That's the main reason I went with a Prussian leader and I'm sure people are tired of Bismarck.
 
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Leader: Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor: Abilities relating to science and culture. Could also be given abilities relating to religious plurality since he frankly didn't care about the Protestant/Catholic division and promoted tolerance in his court.
Civ Ability: Rheingold: Rivers provide +1 Gold and +1 Production to adjacent tiles; +25% unit production for ten turns after declaring war.
Unique Infrastructure: I like the Hansa, but I don't like its Civ6 design. The Civ7 Hansa is a district that can act as a Commercial Hub or a Harbor, provides a bonus to industry, and can shoot like an Encampment.
UU: Reichsritter, replaces the Knight.

My idea for Germany emphasizes its position in the Early Modern period but also hints at its 19th and 20th century history through the bonuses to unit production. This Germany is an industrial and commercial powerhouse with small bonuses to science and culture. This Germany is primed for a peaceful victory through science or an aggressive victory through domination.
 
How about a Germany focused on generating great people? :p I don't mind U-Boat or Panzer, but if they decide to add another medieval leader, I hope they also bring in a medieval cavalry to match the leader.
 
Germany

Ability: I like Zaarin's idea with the production foe units when declaring war and river bonuses

UU: Landsknecht
UU2: Panzer
UB: Bierhaus (amenities and culture)

Leader: Bismarck
Ability: Iron Chancellor (something city-state related maybe)

I lile my Germany to focus on many of it's eras, like ir does in Civs V&VI
 
UB: Bierhaus (amenities and culture)
I think @Boris Gudenuf wanted this saved for Bohemia. :mischief: (I'm a little more partial to something that showcases Czechia's magnificent Gothic architecture like a hrad or a cathedral myself.)
 
More specifically German alternatives to a Bierhaus (which in Germany is more specifically Bavarian) might be:

Rathaus: the 'town hall'/City Council (Rat in this case meant 'advice' or advisers): symbol of Good Government at the local level, and therefore general satisfaction (amenity) with conditions.

Weinfest: "Wine Festival" - they are everywhere in the world there are vinyards, because the point is to sell off last year's vintage to make room for this year's, but the German Fests are practically year round and include a lot of non-wine festivities. Biggest are at Bad Durkheim and Wiesbaden, I believe.
 
Depending on how will you define 'Germany'. Either as Holy Roman Empire (which inevitably includes Austria which later on became distinct Civ). Prussia of the Enlightenment Era. or First half of 20th Century Unified German Empire.
If HRE is defined as being Germany (And not Austria, and under the conditions that the two Civs present in the Same game), then either Landsknechte (Pike & Shot replacements, one might argue that they're the first P&S which predates Spanish Colunelas (which later became superior Tercio)) or Schwartreiter (Knight upgrades) can be their UU. If they're Enlightenment era Prussia. (under Frederick II's leadership), then their UU could be either Gardes du Corps (Superior 'Cuirassier' consists entirely of noblemen, several unit members have 'foreign' family names or even names. one even have French names as well), or 'Grenadiers' (Fusilier replacements, and 'on par' with Civ6 French Imperial Guard). Frederick II is known to be a kind of Francophile (His mentor was Voltaire), so he should speak Noblemen French when communicating with player. If German Empire is chosen. then UU is better be Jagers (Basic infantry armed with Dreyse Needle Gun, this unit actually fits the definition of F'xis 'favorite generic unit'--the Riflemen)

Regardless of choices. What do you think are better 'all leader' UU for Germany?
- Panzerkampfwagen
- Unterseeboote (U-boat)
- Supergun (German Empire was the first to build ones dedicately designed to use on rail carriage, and intended to use in offensive manner. Railway guns made by their enemies were more or less repurposed from either naval gun or coastal defense battery modified with recoil dampener devices (many of these were made before recoil mechanisms were implemented), these weapons were made BEFORE strategic 'Fortress' bombers were proven more efficient several decades later, made to make a short work out of Palmerston-Edicott style fortifications like Liege or those around Verdun. )
- Panzergrenadier (Mech Infantry replacements which availables earlier)
?
 
Germany and the Germans have a military reputation in rhe modern era, but historically it is based on very different things.
Ancient Germans were dangerous, according to Roman writers, because there were so many of them. "Germania" where they lived covered modern Germany, Austria, and most of eastern Europe north of the Balkans and east to Byelorussia - and "Germans" included ethnic groups from southern Scandinavia like the Goths as far as the Romans were concerned.
After a few centuries of Roman contact, the Germans had steel swords, metal armor, and a lot of military expertese they'd learned as Roman troops but you can't really point to anything specifically "German" that makes them militarily superior - there are still a lot of them, is basically it.

German knights in the Medieval period, once they are separate from Carolingian Miles, consistently got whipped by French knights, so not a good basis for a UU. The first distinctly German and Unique (and capable) Units are the Landsknechts, founded by the HRE Emperor Maximilian in 1486 - 7 years before the Spanish Colunelas that became the Tercios.

After that, Renaissance Reiters - pistol-armed "light" or half-armored cavalry, Prussian (and other German states like Hanover and Hesse and Bavaria) Grenadiers, Prussian Hussars that were the first light cavalry that could make a charge en masse like heavy cavalry, Jaegers that were the first 'regular' troops armed with breechloading rifles, the Krupp/Skoda massive 'siege' howitzers of WWI, Stosstruppen or Assault Troops that finally broke open the trench systems of WWI, the Stuka, Panzer, Panzer Grenadier, or Brandenburger (early Special Forces, a few years before any Commandos, Rangers, Spetsnaz and other later versions) Units.

BUT I would argue that the 'German military excellence' is better served not by specific UUs, but by a Unique District: the Maneuver Area.
Wildflecken, Grafenwoehr, Sennelager, Munsterlager - starting in the later 19th century (Industrial) the German military (including states like Bavaria) set aside large areas of open country where large military units like brigades and divisions could practice moving, deploying, battle actions, and live firing as units in peacetime. This gave them a huge advantage over other country's units hat had no such practice with units (usually) large than a battalion or regiment.
So, a Maneuver Area would replace the older Encampment, would have to be built separated from any other District, but gives a Free Promotion to any Unit built in them.

And by the way, taken by themselves as combat machines, most of the panzerkampfwagen were mediocre: what made the panzer units deadly was the individual crew and unit training they received, which is better represented by the Unique District than a single Unique Unit.

The other Unique that could be used to showcase "military excellence" would be the Grosser General Stab, or Great General Staff, the corps of highly-trained officers that made all German units move and act faster and with more precision and coordination than anybody else's from the 1860s to the 1940s.
 
What about Arminius, do you think Arminius is a good candidate for German leader?
I tried to get every aspect of Germany's history with this design. I didn't want to make it like Civ 6 being mostly based off of the Holy Roman Empire considering I also want Maria Theresa to return for Austria. That's the main reason I went with a Prussian leader and I'm sure people are tired of Bismarck.

Problem is Earlier HRE Habsburg Emperor can be considered as leader of both Germany and Austria like Maximilian I and Charles V(He could be dual or triple leader of Germany, Austria and Spain in the game). If Maximilian I is chosen as leader of Germany then Austria civ won't be happened unless they choose Prussian leader or HRE Emperor before Habsburg reign. Austria returning to civ 7 would be nice but Franz Joseph as a leader would be interesting. I am also tired of Bismarck because he appears as German leader from civ 3-5 as now I wanna see newcomer as a leader instead.

Regardless of choices. What do you think are better 'all leader' UU for Germany?
- Panzerkampfwagen
- Unterseeboote (U-boat)
- Supergun (German Empire was the first to build ones dedicately designed to use on rail carriage, and intended to use in offensive manner. Railway guns made by their enemies were more or less repurposed from either naval gun or coastal defense battery modified with recoil dampener devices (many of these were made before recoil mechanisms were implemented), these weapons were made BEFORE strategic 'Fortress' bombers were proven more efficient several decades later, made to make a short work out of Palmerston-Edicott style fortifications like Liege or those around Verdun. )
- Panzergrenadier (Mech Infantry replacements which availables earlier)
?

I think U boat should be continue as modern unique unit for Germany because in the past game series, Panzer was unique unit of Germany. I don't mind Panzer returns as unique unit in CIV 7 but I prefer U boat as unique unit for Germany because I think some civs need some unique naval units and U boat itself is really unique.
 
What about Arminius, do you think Arminius is a good candidate for German leader?
No, he was Dutch. :mischief: Yes, I'm aware you were talking about the tribal warlord, not the theologian. :p But my answer would still be no. Arminius leading Germany would feel like Civ5 Boudica all over again.

Problem is Earlier HRE Habsburg Emperor can be considered as leader of both Germany and Austria like Maximilian I and Charles V(He could be dual or triple leader of Germany, Austria and Spain in the game). If Maximilian I is chosen as leader of Germany then Austria civ won't be happened unless they choose Prussian leader or HRE Emperor before Habsburg reign. Austria returning to civ 7 would be nice but Franz Joseph as a leader would be interesting. I am also tired of Bismarck because he appears as German leader from civ 3-5 as now I wanna see newcomer as a leader instead.
We have two kings of Portugal and two monarchs of the Netherlands in the game. Victoria could conceivably lead a third of the game's civs. I don't think it's that big of an issue.
 
Victoria could conceivably lead a third of the game's civs. I don't think it's that big of an issue.

And I think she should. I'm hoping for a civ design system where leader change occurs during the game and allows for flexibility in gameplay. It also has the neat side effect of buffing the "big civs" by adding new leaders for them in later DLCs as we simply have more options for them than say the Mapuche. Simply for Germany, there are already a lot of proposals in this thread. I'd add Konrad Adenauer to the list, the crazy inventor and first chancellor of post-war germany.

As for structures and unique units, yeah, basically everything works, as long as they are coherent :)
 
Problem is Earlier HRE Habsburg Emperor can be considered as leader of both Germany and Austria like Maximilian I and Charles V(He could be dual or triple leader of Germany, Austria and Spain in the game). If Maximilian I is chosen as leader of Germany then Austria civ won't be happened unless they choose Prussian leader or HRE Emperor before Habsburg reign. Austria returning to civ 7 would be nice but Franz Joseph as a leader would be interesting. I am also tired of Bismarck because he appears as German leader from civ 3-5 as now I wanna see newcomer as a leader instead.
That's exactly why I went with a Prussian leader. Maria Theresa is definitely interesting enough to keep returning as the leader for Austria though.

We have two kings of Portugal and two monarchs of the Netherlands in the game. Victoria could conceivably lead a third of the game's civs. I don't think it's that big of an issue.
Firaxis: India finally gets a new leader.
Everyone else: Yay!
Firaxis: Victoria leads India in Civ VII
Everyone else: What?

For the first one are you talking about Phillip II for both instances or is there another monarch of the Netherlands I'm unaware of?
 
And I think she should. I'm hoping for a civ design system where leader change occurs during the game and allows for flexibility in gameplay.
I'm not a fan of a leader leading multiple civilizations. It's gimmicky, and it erodes the premise that leaders are the "face" of their civilization.

For the first one are you talking about Phillip II for both instances or is there another monarch of the Netherlands I'm unaware of?
Yeah, Philip II, though granted he lost the Netherlands. Oh, and Freddy also owned the Netherlands as King of Burgundy. Forgot about that.
 
Unique unit 1: Ritter (Knight)

AFAIK. German Knights were mediocre compared to French ones (which by the end of Middle Ages became government controlled Gendarmes which French kings used them to great effect in Italy until Spain developed Colunelas (a kind of Pike&shot that eventually became better known Tercios) to counter them.
Germans did however play a big role regarding to Heavy Cavalry evolutions. They developed Reiters ('Pistolier' heavycavalry with half-armor and ride smaller horses locally available. They donned black (actually 'blued' ) armor and their alternate name is 'Schwartreiter' (Black Knights). Actually HRE were known to have problems fielding their 'Imperial Knights' with good warhorses--AFAIK Desteriers or Coursers (horses) were rarer in HRE German world and more common in France. When handheld firearms were invented, someone came up with an idea to replace lance with guns and thus the first pistols (as one-hand wielding firearms) were made as wheellock weapons. and these were Reiters signature weapons (as they were known to wield at least TWO or THREE pistols) in addition to straight 'Armor piercing' broadswords. and they found out it was possible to mount them on German warhorses and found out that they're superior to 'Knights with couched lances' (including French Gendarmes of 16th Century which when Reiters came to exists)


https://kronprinztoysoldiers.com/gb/rocroi/1178-reiter.html

Also. 'Cuirassiers' began in Renaissance Era and not 'Industrial Era'. with Germany originated Reiters being the first. (And the term 'Reiter' was used interchangebly with 'Cuirassiers' to call heavy cavalry wielding pistols and swords until 18th Century). Quite an irony, Industrial Era is when 'Cuirassiers' reached its decline, even shock 'heavy' cavalry of 18th had become 'Armorless' but instead riding the same big warhorses as actual Cuirassiers, and even units with this name had dropped Cuirasses completely by that time until Napoleon reintroduced Cuirassier with actual cuirasses (And even converted 'Carabiniers' (whom expected to be either light cavalry or mounted infantry) into this unit as well).
 
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Just emerged from Wolfenstein Wikia divings :P I've found that there are two other Early Medieval Kings that can lead Germany in Civ7. Henry the Fowler, and his son, Otto I. Both of which are Saxonian. and did appear in other videogames before.

And yes! Wolfenstein series... in that settings, both of the two kings not only not being Christian (not sure about Otto. if he has been baptized later at some point in his life, but Henry never was) but also either manipulate 'advanced sciences of lost cultures' to the evil ends, particularly to conquer others (In case of Henry there was a good reason to be 'evil'. Saxony (or anywhere being his domain) was not really strong compared to what Carolingians had but to his view-- 'oppressive' and somehow 'evil ends of advanced alien science' was neccessary. IMAO as Return to Castle Wolfenstein veteran. the life of Henry the Fowler being black magician king (or even 'evil' outright) is very exaggerated... he became 'evil' later in his life because 'he has to be'. He had too many enemies to subdue, or at least, to fend off, ranging from unruly overlords, Slavic peoples, and the Franks (or even the 'Christendom' itself). Later on, Richard Wagner saw him as an inspiration for United German Nationalism in the 19th Century. same went to German Nationalistic movements in the same century that saw him being 'The First King of Germany', and even Heinrich Himmer (SS Founder, and leader) viewed himself as a reincarnations of the said King.

I'm not sure if there's a proof both Henry and Otto did practice in any kind of witchcraft, black magics or anything Christian communities will readily villify him as being evil.
 
I'm not sure if there's a proof both Henry and Otto did practice in any kind of witchcraft, black magics or anything Christian communities will readily villify him as being evil.
The Ottonian kings were Christian, and I've never heard any serious suggestion that they were heterodox or involved in witchcraft. Henry the Fowler did refuse anointing upon becoming king, but that was to dispute the power of the Church in establishing his legitimacy. It wasn't a theological statement.

Later on, Richard Wagner saw him as an inspiration for United German Nationalism in the 19th Century. same went to German Nationalistic movements in the same century that saw him being 'The First King of Germany', and even Heinrich Himmer (SS Founder, and leader) viewed himself as a reincarnations of the said King.
German nationalists, and Nazis in particular, had sketchy ideas, many of which would have horrified the people they roped into being their icons (e.g., Bismarck would have loathed Hitler). That the Nazis liked someone is not adequate reason to paint them as a villain. (A few exceptions do deserve it, like Wagner.)
 
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