Designing Kongo in Civ7

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

1. Who should be the 'Vanilla' Leader?
- Alfonso I 'The First Christian' Nzinga
- Anna Sousa
(Both of which are of the house Nzinga)
2. Should they have ability to found their own religion or remains as adoptee? In Civ6 Kongolese ain't a good choice if you pursue religious victory. While this is historically accurate (Alfonso himself converted to Catholicism by Portuguese Priests. I'm not sure if @raen can fill me in on details how did he converted to Catholicism? through church college? did the Jesuits involved in this affair? (particularly with this priestly order is preferred by Portuguese but Castillian (later Spanish) rivals hate.
3. What unit should their Shieldbearer be a replacements of? (Classical Swordsman or Medieval upgrades?)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If Mbande Nzinga comes back she should lead her own Angolan civilization, instead.

 

[Uberfrog]

I don't know if you read French, but in case you do there is a good article on Afonso here: https://www.liberation.fr/debats/2015/09/09/les-machiavel-du-kongo_1816990/

To summarise, Mvemba a Nzinga was not the first Manikongo to convert to Christianity. His predecessor Nzinga a Nkuwu was baptised in 1491. But why?

On the Portuguese side, the framing of Diogo Cão’s expedition as a Christian mission was important to establish his legitimacy, as it was for Spanish conquistadors in the Americas.

But for the Kongolese king, it was just expedient to form an alliance with the Portuguese to acquire guns to fight rebels in his own kingdom. He was baptised as João I in honour of the Portuguese king.

Shortly after the Manikongo, both the queen and Mvemba a Nzinga (who was the king’s son and likely chosen successor) were also baptised.

By 1495 the rebels had been defeated with European guns, and João I had got everything he needed from Christianity. Portuguese missionaries were expelled from Mbanza Kongo, and found refuge in Nsundi, the royal province controlled by Mvemba. Mvemba had thrown himself into studying with the Christians and reportedly destroyed traditional idols to avoid offending them.

After the death of João I in 1506, there was a struggle for succession. Kongo was an elective monarchy and two factions had emerged: a Christian faction led by Mvemba and a traditional faction led by his brother Mpanzu.

Mvemba defeated his brother in battle, a victory ascribed to a miracle like that of Constantine at the Milvian bridge. He became Afonso I, the new Manikongo and would embark on a program of centralising reform modelled on Christianity. His faith was key in obtaining legitimacy from both the King of Portugal and the Pope, and he had extensive diplomatic contact with Europe.

The degree of faith Afonso actually had is impossible to know. But in siding with the Portuguese and converting to Christianity, he was able to outmanoeuvre his rivals and build a strong centralised kingdom.

Unfortunately the Portuguese were of course playing their own colonial game. Afonso would find himself struggling to contend with Portuguese commercial interests (particularly the growing slave trade) that would eventually dominate his kingdom.

 

[Uberfrog]

As a note of clarity - Nzinga Mbande and Mvemba a Nzinga are not related, nor even members of the same linguistic group.

Nzinga is a name, and is used as a patronymic for Mvemba, whose father was Nzinga a Nkuwu.

 

[Patine]

If Mbande Nzinga comes back she should lead her own Angolan civilization, instead.

You mean, "Ndongo Civilization?" "Angola," like the great majority of modern African nations, many Asian and Oceanian ones, and every Western Hemisphere one, is as stands, a Colonial construct, and, "Angola," as a word, seems to be a mistranslation and/or mistransliteration that was corrected for the Pre-Colonial Kingdom in retrospective historical records, but remains uncorrected for the modern Republic, a distinction that's probably deliberate.

 

[raen]

Yes, Catholicism was a good platform at the time to be powerful. Portugal's expeditions had the seal of the pope, we know the Portuguese wanted to explore but had to present proof of religion to the Vatican.

João II Portugal King invited king Nzinga a Nkuwu to his court and showed all the Power he will get from Christianity, a door open to Europe. And he was baptized and named João I of Kongo. His son was baptized and named Afonso I of Kongo. Namely two very important names of Portuguese Kings.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

And How should Alfonso I represented?
1. Him in Old Kongo dress
2. Him wearing Portuguese dressings?

 

[raen]

I believe they always presented their own identity, in their homeland of course. When João I of Kongo visited Portugal I believe he had to use the dress code, anyway he was presented as an equal, a (Christian) King.

Has for his son I don't really know.

 

[Uberfrog]

You mean, "Ndongo Civilization?" "Angola," like the great majority of modern African nations, many Asian and Oceanian ones, and every Western Hemisphere one, is as stands, a Colonial construct, and, "Angola," as a word, seems to be a mistranslation and/or mistransliteration that was corrected for the Pre-Colonial Kingdom in retrospective historical records, but remains uncorrected for the modern Republic, a distinction that's probably deliberate.

Indeed. Angola is the name of the Portuguese colony. Its name is a corruption of Ngola, the Kimbundu word for the ruler of Ndongo. Thus Nzinga Mbande was the Ngola of Ndongo.

The situation in 1622 is complicated. We have the Kingdom of Kongo, the Kingdom of Ndongo, the Kingdom of Matamba and the Colony of Angola coexisting as states in the region… all of which are in the territory of modern Angola.

Over time the African kingdoms were destroyed and the Província de Angola (aka Portuguese West Africa) would dominate the whole region until 1975 and the Angolan War of Independence. The name of course persisted through the People’s Republic of Angola to the modern Republic. But it is the successor of the colonial state, not the kingdoms of Kongo or Ndongo.

If Nzinga is to return in Civ 7, she should be leader of Ndongo. Angola was the name of a colony she was effectively at war with for 25 years.

 

[Henri Christophe]

If Nzinga is to return in Civ 7, she should be leader of Ndongo. Angola was the name of a colony she was effectively at war with for 25 years.

I agree with you, the best choice is she to lead Ndongo, and in his bio when the game starts also say she was also leader of Matamba.
But I don't will mind if she leads Angola instead (with the civ seal as the modern Angola seal of a knife and a gear), it will be better then she leads the Kongo, what she is totally not correlated.

And How should Alfonso I represented?
1. Him in Old Kongo dress
2. Him wearing Portuguese dressings?

About this issue I think Afonso I should be wearing Portuguese clothes and be called Afonso and not Mvemba.

 

[Evie]

I'd argue she's more related to Kongo (of which Ndongo was at times a vassal) than to the modern country of Angola (which only stole the name from the Ngola of Ndongo, and is otherwise largely unrelated to Ndongo - it's a Portuguese colony mostly made up of Khoi and San people where the former Ndongo is only a small fraction of the realm.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

You mean, "Ndongo Civilization?" "Angola," like the great majority of modern African nations, many Asian and Oceanian ones, and every Western Hemisphere one, is as stands, a Colonial construct, and, "Angola," as a word, seems to be a mistranslation and/or mistransliteration that was corrected for the Pre-Colonial Kingdom in retrospective historical records, but remains uncorrected for the modern Republic, a distinction that's probably deliberate.

I assume that that's the name that would probably be given to them. I mean we've had the Majapahit for two straight games, but it's still called Indonesia. But it would effectively be a Ndongo civ irregardless of the name.

 

[Uberfrog]

I'd argue she's more related to Kongo (of which Ndongo was at times a vassal) than to the modern country of Angola (which only stole the name from the Ngola of Ndongo, and is otherwise largely unrelated to Ndongo - it's a Portuguese colony mostly made up of Khoi and San people where the former Ndongo is only a small fraction of the realm.

I’m not sure where you got that impression. According to the 2014 census the most common ethnic groups in Angola were Ovimbundu (37%), Ambundu (23%) and Bakongo (13%). The San are a pretty tiny minority.

The Kimbundu speaking Ambundu is the same ethnic group as the founders of Ndongo and Matamba. The Kikongo speaking Bakongo are naturally descendants of the Kongo kingdom (which we should remember was largely situated in the territory of modern Angola). The larger Ovimbundu group is still a Bantu language group closely related to the Ambundu, and were the people of the southern Benguela kingdoms.

 

[Evie]

Fair enough, I must have misread something.

Even then I would be against making her a leader of modern Angola largely because I don't think Angola warrant a spot in the game (there are far more interesting historical choices to represent the same region ; and far more interesting countries in other parts of Africa to represent modern Africa), but I'll ammend my previous statement to say that Ndongo has as much of a link to modern Angola (they're part of it) as they did to ancient Kongo (they were part of it - vassals).

 

[Xandinho]

If they choose the name "Angola" for Nzinga's civ it will only be because it's a more recognizable name, let's face it causal players may never have heard of the Kingdom of Ndongo. It is the same case for Indonesia and Majapahit.
Although I still prefer Ndongo and Majapahit.

 

[Patine]

Fair enough, I must have misread something.

Even then I would be against making her a leader of modern Angola largely because I don't think Angola warrant a spot in the game (there are far more interesting historical choices to represent the same region ; and far more interesting countries in other parts of Africa to represent modern Africa), but I'll ammend my previous statement to say that Ndongo has as much of a link to modern Angola (they're part of it) as they did to ancient Kongo (they were part of it - vassals).

You were probably thinking of Namibia, directly to the south of Angola. They are a VERY sparsely populated nation (in fact, I believe the lowest average population density of a sovereign nation today, or second lowest to Mongolia), and have very large percentages of their population that are San and Khoi peoples.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Kongo (they were part of it - vassals).

When this happens? I'm not an expert of history of Kongo, but I read the biography of the Queen Nzinga and at least of the time of her life the Ndongo was totally independent of Kongo...

You were probably thinking of Namibia, directly to the south of Angola. They are a VERY sparsely populated nation (in fact, I believe the lowest average population density of a sovereign nation today, or second lowest to Mongolia), and have very large percentages of their population that are San and Khoi peoples.

Namibia also have a lot of Germans settlers.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Fair enough, I must have misread something.

Even then I would be against making her a leader of modern Angola largely because I don't think Angola warrant a spot in the game (there are far more interesting historical choices to represent the same region ; and far more interesting countries in other parts of Africa to represent modern Africa), but I'll ammend my previous statement to say that Ndongo has as much of a link to modern Angola (they're part of it) as they did to ancient Kongo (they were part of it - vassals).

I mean a major part of the territory of the Kingdom of Kongo was located in modern-day Angola, so there's still history there. I also don't think that anyone was advocating for modern Angola to be in the game. More like just using the name Angola for her civ, while still being primarily Ndongo in design.

When this happens? I'm not an expert of history of Kongo, but I read the biography of the Queen Nzinga and at least of the time of her life the Ndongo was totally independent of Kongo...

They were vassals of Kongo before Queen Nzinga's time.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I believe they always presented their own identity, in their homeland of course. When João I of Kongo visited Portugal I believe he had to use the dress code, anyway he was presented as an equal, a (Christian) King.

Has for his son I don't really know.

Is this a correct picture of Alfonso I of Kongo in Portuguese Dressing? https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/mvemba-a-nzinga-afonso-i-of-kongo.660554/

 

[Patine]

Namibia also have a lot of Germans settlers.

Yes, and some Afrikaaners, too, and some British (including Rhodesians), and some Ovimbundu in the far northeast, and some, "Basters," or, "Rehobothers," (Namibian terms for those of mixed racial blood, equivalent to, "Coloured," or, "Griquas," in South Africa, or, "Malattos," in Latin America and former Portuguese African colonies), but not enough to disprove @Evie's statement, as collectively Khoi and San people are a statistical plurality.