[R&F] Devs play at incompetance! (Tamar Game)

[Disgustipated]

Oh this thread is unlocked again. I was writing a comment earlier when it was locked, but some of my text is still here. I repeated some of it in the other thread, so it may look familiar.

I thought they did fine. Yes, Twitchers and Youtubers do it much better, but they've been doing it for years. Practice makes perfect. Even someone like Quill makes a lot of mistakes, but it's entertaining to see him foolishly go for Petra nearly every time. He does it because the fans like to see it, even if it's a poor strategy.

Also when I'm doing quick tests or something just to get an achievement, I don't bother setting everything up perfectly.

And yes, it was an information age start, hence the lack of improvements.

I agree they should be showcasing the game, but to me, I gathered more info watching the pre release patreon games, which admittedly were played over 6-10 hour sessions, not really listening to what the youtuber was saying, but just watching his moves

I believe we will get some Twitchers playing here real soon. It's how I judged Civ6 pre release. I liked what I saw, and I pre-ordered the game.

if a game "needs" a mod to be playable

I played 1000 hours with no mods, and I still don't have CQUI. It's not necessary. Queues aren't necessary.

Hmm, would anyone care to post some footage of themselves playing, I dunno, like 30 turns, and you must click end turn 15 seconds after a turn begins so we can enjoy nitpicking every time you neglect a policy?

I know I would suck. I'm not a high level player anyways, I stick to King because I like to build lots of wonders. Some youtubers will just say out loud what they are thinking about their current strategy, which is the best way. But some of the better ones can go on rants about the latest Star Wars movie or something and still play the game pretty well, though I see this more with RPG's during the down time. But I am pretty good about remembering to change my social policies, but I know I forget at least once or twice a game.

Could the Devs be better at the game? Sure. But I'd rather they do a good job designing a game, not waste time playing it. Play testers can help balance a game, the devs are not and should not be play testers.

 

[Thormodr]

Oh this thread is unlocked again. I was writing a comment earlier when it was locked, but some of my text is still here. I repeated some of it in the other thread, so it may look familiar.

I thought they did fine. Yes, Twitchers and Youtubers do it much better, but they've been doing it for years. Practice makes perfect. Even someone like Quill makes a lot of mistakes, but it's entertaining to see him foolishly go for Petra nearly every time. He does it because the fans like to see it, even if it's a poor strategy.

Also when I'm doing quick tests or something just to get an achievement, I don't bother setting everything up perfectly.

And yes, it was an information age start, hence the lack of improvements.



I believe we will get some Twitchers playing here real soon. It's how I judged Civ6 pre release. I liked what I saw, and I pre-ordered the game.



I played 1000 hours with no mods, and I still don't have CQUI. It's not necessary. Queues aren't necessary.



I know I would suck. I'm not a high level player anyways, I stick to King because I like to build lots of wonders. Some youtubers will just say out loud what they are thinking about their current strategy, which is the best way. But some of the better ones can go on rants about the latest Star Wars movie or something and still play the game pretty well, though I see this more with RPG's during the down time. But I am pretty good about remembering to change my social policies, but I know I forget at least once or twice a game.

Could the Devs be better at the game? Sure. But I'd rather they do a good job designing a game, not waste time playing it. Play testers can help balance a game, the devs are not and should not be play testers.

I am a King player, too. I like the more relaxed pace of game and I do like to build the occasional wonder.

As for the gameplay video, yeah, I agree. The devs should design it and the play testers should balance it. As long as the play testers do their job and the devs actually listen to them, all should be well.

 

[dunkleosteus]

I've livestreamed Civ before and I can say that it makes you nervous. I only stream to a handful of people for fun but it changes how you think. To say "why didn't you do this??" when you're sitting at home watching is different.

When you're acting as the spokesperson for your company and the new product, when you have more than a thousand people watching your every move, you get nervous. You make mistakes. They're trying to keep track of what they've been told to do, how they're supposed to show off all the features, tick off all the checkboxes that playing the game becomes harder. You feel like you can't take the second or two to analyze what you're seeing because that would just create dead air where you're just staring at the screen instead of being the informer and narrator that you've been told to be. You have so much going through your head that you miss things.

Also, when I'm watching someone play Civ on youtube and I see them do something and I think "I'd never do that! I'd do this instead!" it always results in me booting up the game myself. Maybe it's a psychological thing to make us buy the game haha.

 

[Victoria]

I’m fine with whatever play. In fact the more variety the better, often you can come up with ideas how to play from seeing the strangest things. Variety is the spice of life.
I was teaching 80 people around the world the other day remotely, I teach in the classroom about 50;days a year. I would be fine to livestream... the trouble is Like most people I hate the sound of my own voice so listening to a recording makes me cringe. Even though others say they love my voice, my own head says nay.

 

[Disgustipated]

I see them do something and I think "I'd never do that! I'd do this instead!" it always results in me booting up the game myself. Maybe it's a psychological thing to make us buy the game haha.

haha, that's the main reason I've been playing so much SMAC lately, because of Quill18's twitch streams. Watching people livestream games I love almost always makes me want to play the same game. But I've watched people livestream games I'm not particularly interested in like Rimworld, and I have no desire to buy that game. And of course SMAC is a tough game (if you aren't familiar with it at least), and Quill is very rusty, he's having a tough time. You can't play it like Civ5 or Civ6, you really have to really commit to the wars, you can't half a it. Only bad thing is the unreasonable AI can make playing in peace difficult, it's easier just to stomp them. I finally managed to overcome an AI that had cities in the monsoon jungle (though they didn't start there).

 

[Goliht]

Only thing about streaming I can't do is talk like I have an audience.. I don't mind talking to people who are there, but there's streamers that talk to people who aren't actually there.. and it's kinda weird. Most of my videos are silent for that reason. Noone watching hehe.

As for Devs developing etc, I feel that if you don't love developing, then you're wasting your time even being in the business, you should love your own designs, know them inside out, talk about them like it's muscle memory. I know it sounds arrogant and it probably is, but I actually try to be a perfectionist, I rarely make mistakes, except in spelling.. most of my mistakes are purely that, errors caused by the mouse misclicking etc, I try to judge every move, every call, I plan ahead, have several plans in most cases with fallbacks, I do this in every game I play. And I guess, my main letdown, is that I expect the same level of output from everyone else.

People like to make similarity to other trades, like would you buy a honda from a dealer who couldn't drive and talk about the civic.. but ask yourself this.. would you goto a dentist, who was rubbish at doing his job? Or a doctor? I know I wouldn't. I expect people to be good at their job, especially developers at the upper end of the gaming spectrum, I expect excellent music, graphics, sound effects and I expect devs to be good at their own game. I don't believe it's too much, to ask this of someone, in fact, I'd say that to not expect this, would be to insult them, be at least disrespectful. Just as those who aren't.. are to us, their faithful subscribers and customers.

Even though others say they love my voice, my own head says nay.

Yeh this is common to all of us, the inability to recognise our own voices.. in all honesty I think I sound sexy.. but, I do agree, I actually find it hard to believe that it's actually my own voice I'm hearing, worse still, is sometimes I can't even understand what I'm saying...

 

[Cerilis]

Heh, come back when you try to deliberately change your voice. Then it becomes a real issue!

 

[Archon_Wing]

Being a professional developer is not the same as being a professional gamer. The goals to approaching a game are different. One needs to make the game accessible to a wide audience while another plays to win.

People like to make similarity to other trades, like would you buy a honda from a dealer who couldn't drive and talk about the civic..

This is a terrible analogy. The correct analogy is if they were a poor driver and honestly who really cares. That doesn't mean they don't know about cars.

Likewise doctors may not keep their own health but it does not mean they can't diagnose other people.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Only thing about streaming I can't do is talk like I have an audience.. I don't mind talking to people who are there, but there's streamers that talk to people who aren't actually there.. and it's kinda weird. Most of my videos are silent for that reason. Noone watching hehe.

As for Devs developing etc, I feel that if you don't love developing, then you're wasting your time even being in the business, you should love your own designs, know them inside out, talk about them like it's muscle memory. I know it sounds arrogant and it probably is, but I actually try to be a perfectionist, I rarely make mistakes, except in spelling.. most of my mistakes are purely that, errors caused by the mouse misclicking etc, I try to judge every move, every call, I plan ahead, have several plans in most cases with fallbacks, I do this in every game I play. And I guess, my main letdown, is that I expect the same level of output from everyone else.

People like to make similarity to other trades, like would you buy a honda from a dealer who couldn't drive and talk about the civic.. but ask yourself this.. would you goto a dentist, who was rubbish at doing his job? Or a doctor? I know I wouldn't. I expect people to be good at their job, especially developers at the upper end of the gaming spectrum, I expect excellent music, graphics, sound effects and I expect devs to be good at their own game. I don't believe it's too much, to ask this of someone, in fact, I'd say that to not expect this, would be to insult them, be at least disrespectful. Just as those who aren't.. are to us, their faithful subscribers and customers.

So let's go ahead and assume your statement on being perfect at the game. Fine, do you know the first thing about design? Do you know how to develop a system? Do you actually know how to tweak and balance? Have you done any of those things?

So first and foremost game design is not gameplay. Twilight Struggle is one of the top rated board games all time. Ananda Gupta (formerly of Friaxis), co-designer, is NOT one of the top players in the world. A designer can most certainly be good at their job they can know the systems and still not make the optimal plays in a gameplay scenario. And to suggest that simply because they are not the best at their game they don't care or love what they do is utter rubbish. I hate to point out such nonsense, but I actually try to be a perfectionist, I rarely make mistakes, except in spelling.. most of my mistakes are purely that, errors caused by the mouse misclicking etc, I try to judge every statement, every quote, I plan ahead, have several arguments in most cases with fallbacks, I do this in every discussion I engage. And I guess, my main letdown, is that I expect the same level of output from everyone else.

 

[ThERat]

I teach professionally and in the year 2018, you have to do with narration of your PP slides etc. Hence, speaking while thinking and doing things is getting easier each time you do it. Sure, Firaxis guys are no professionals, but some preparation and dry runs could help.

I do not watch those streams as it all seems a lot of fillers etc before they get to the meat. I am too bored by the time something really happens.

 

[Acken]

It was the same for beyond earth or for the vanilla civ6. Not much is new.

In general I find these lets play previews to be a huge waste of time so I skip it. You can learn every new features on release date and you'll look elsewhere if you want to get tips.

 

[Thormodr]

I teach professionally and in the year 2018, you have to do with narration of your PP slides etc. Hence, speaking while thinking and doing things is getting easier each time you do it. Sure, Firaxis guys are no professionals, but some preparation and dry runs could help.

I do not watch those streams as it all seems a lot of fillers etc before they get to the meat. I am too bored by the time something really happens.

They did play the map a few times in preparation. Well, at least Sarah said she did. They did seem better prepared than some earlier live streams, anyway.

Any chance of an Always War playthrough for Civ VI anytime soon?

 

[Goliht]

So let's go ahead and assume your statement on being perfect at the game. Fine, do you know the first thing about design? Do you know how to develop a system? Do you actually know how to tweak and balance? Have you done any of those things?

So first and foremost game design is not gameplay. Twilight Struggle is one of the top rated board games all time. Ananda Gupta (formerly of Friaxis), co-designer, is NOT one of the top players in the world. A designer can most certainly be good at their job they can know the systems and still not make the optimal plays in a gameplay scenario. And to suggest that simply because they are not the best at their game they don't care or love what they do is utter rubbish. I hate to point out such nonsense, but I actually try to be a perfectionist, I rarely make mistakes, except in spelling.. most of my mistakes are purely that, errors caused by the mouse misclicking etc, I try to judge every statement, every quote, I plan ahead, have several arguments in most cases with fallbacks, I do this in every discussion I engage. And I guess, my main letdown, is that I expect the same level of output from everyone else.

Not top rated gamer necessary. Only muscle knowledge of the game, ie know how to play civ. ie Want to play Civ for the enjoyment of it, the challenge such as it is. Not because you're being forced to showcase the game and know more or less how it works. Not looking for a perfect gamer.. just a gamer.

And yes I know how to lay out a game design, it's called planning. You plan stuff when you go shopping, when you drive to work.. everyone does it. Some are good, some not so much. You don't make a bad decision in planning because you don't want to go to work or because you're bad at whatever your job is, you do bad planning, because your heart and soul isn't in it or you just didn't think or whatever reason. Planning, driving, gaming.. it takes heart and soul, will to succeed. That's all I'd like to see.. someone with a little will to show us not only how good the game is, but that they know what they're doing and can show us in the best light, how good the game is.

Having someone aimlessly wandering around a civ map pointing out features is not quite the same thing. For some people it's good enough, for me it isn't.

And yes your twisting of my statement regarding argument, is true also, I do have other points of views sitting in the background, waiting activation, but making them all at once, creates books and followup statements like tl:dr..

Oh and JD.. there's an edit button for a reason

 

[Goliht]

Heh, come back when you try to deliberately change your voice. Then it becomes a real issue!

Actually, my son tells me that when I make videos in a silly voice.. they are the better videos.. I just wish I had the "confidence" to talk like a complete twit all the time.

 

[TheArchduke]

Bah, you have devs who know how to play their own game. Check Wiz Videos of Stellaris for instance.

I think the devs in CIV IV knew their own game well, but for that you have to play against humans and not the AI.

 

[Japper007]

I would be fine to livestream... the trouble is Like most people I hate the sound of my own voice so listening to a recording makes me cringe. Even though others say they love my voice, my own head says nay.

This is a well known interplay between human anatomy and phychology, nearly everyone has this issue. Your voice, the way you hear it is about an octave lower than how everyone else hears it, as it reverberates within your own skull. We humans (especially Westerners) assosiate a deep voice with authority and control, so when you hear your recorded voice back at what is its actual pitch you cringe as it sounds more childish or weak. Top that off with the uncanny effect and most people cringe when they hear their own voice. (I certainly do but that's because I'm a 1m86 guy with the voice of a boy going through puberty, heh)

 

[Disgustipated]

Yeah I wish my voice were deeper. Plus I still struggle with my r's I notice on playback (or singing), but I don't notice unless it's on playback. I remember getting some help from a special teacher in 2nd grade to help me with my r's, I thought she corrected that, but I can still hear it on playback, especially when singing (on an app).

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Okay, complaining about the playing abilities in the livestream is kind of pathetic, and reminds me of this:

 

[ThERat]

They did play the map a few times in preparation. Well, at least Sarah said she did. They did seem better prepared than some earlier live streams, anyway.

Any chance of an Always War playthrough for Civ VI anytime soon?

I am playing PBEM as the AI is too dumb but if there is interest, I could do it as the Russians. They are monsters

 

[Thormodr]

I am playing PBEM as the AI is too dumb but if there is interest, I could do it as the Russians. They are monsters

Cool. Thanks for the update. Hopefully the AI will become more of a challenge soon.

I'd love to see A Russian Royal Rumble.