Die stinking battleship!I am a caravel!

[Soufie77]

*KNOCK* *KNOCK*

TANK COMMANDER: Who's there?

SPEARMAN: Your pizza's ready sir!

TANK COMMANDER: Uh... excuse me, just one moment please. (turns to crew) GODDAMNIT! Which one of you monkeys ordered a pizza? You do realise we're fighting a WAR here!

CREW: (incredulous)

TANK COMMANDER: Well?

DRIVER: I think it might have been Jenkins sir. (pointing) He's so hungry, he's half way through eating our entire supply of plastique.

LOADER: (mouth full) Mmmf?

TANK COMMANDER: JESUS CHRIST! How in blazes did you cretins get through basic training? JENKINS, TAKE THAT OUT OF YOUR MOUTH! You know how much it cost division HQ to replaster the lavatory ceiling.

DRIVER: ...that'll be the last time they assign him to armory duty!

CREW: (breaks into hysterics)

COMMANDER: SHUT UP! (turns to hatch)(politely) ...um, sorry to keep you waiting. Might I ask what kind of pizza you have?

SPEARMAN: We have a large pepperoni deluxe with extra cheese and chilli peppers... ordered by a Mr. Hugh Zwacker?

TANK COMMANDER: Does it come with anchovies?

SPEARMAN: ...with anchovies!

TANK COMMANDER: (salivating) ...and an extra topping of mushrooms?

SPEARMAN: Uhh... yes, we have that too!

TANK COMMANDER: Ah, well. I suppose one pizza can't hurt. We'll take it. (opens hatch)

*KABOOOOOOM*

 

[Zachriel]

"ie... sure the carrier will have a good chance of killing the first one, but the second one has a much better chance.

why is this so? "



Because you don't attack any ship with a carrier. Recently a couple of guys in a speed boat took out an advanced U.S. destroyer. The proper defense for a carrier is air power. And yes, you might still lose a plane, but with proper planning, you won't lose the war.

Remember what happened to the Bismark. Bad planning on the German side, luck on the British side.

 

[Gruntboy]

I'm not condoning any whacky explanations as to how a spearman can take out a tank. That's plain crazy. And I've not been playing Civ3 long enough to come across such a situation (though I have done my fair share of Civ1&2).

But people are crying "realism" when their tank loses to a phalanx. Well what *real* civilization would pit spears against tanks? What civilization allows itself to be left behind in such a manner? Some historical examples are available and the were certainly wiped out - Native American Indians for example. Japan was left behind until 1700's and they quickly accepted the gun.

My point is, quit your b*tchin' and try winning. You're not going to get a decisive world conquering game everytime - that wouldn't be fun or real (like we're not all typing in German right now). Maybe your strategy is inherently flawed if your fighting that phalanx in the first place.

Oh yeah, and whose leaving their carriers unprotected? Last time I checked WW2 carriers had nothing bigger than 40mm cannon. That's why they have air cover. Even modern carriers only have SAM's and 20mm rotary cannon (enough to turn a caravel to driftwood, if they can point down that far ).

 

[Soufie77]

Hmmm... how about Italy's invasion of Abyssinia in 1935. Didn't Mussolini's tanks and infantry have a great deal of trouble against Emperor Haile Selassie's backward army? I think the most advanced military units in his army were armed horsemen... perhaps equivalent to cavalry.

 

[Gruntboy]

Like I say, I'm not going to proffer any nonsense about spearmen and tanks. But mounted arabs caused an awful lot of bother for the modern Turkish army during WW1. Armed peasants caused the Americans a lot of upset during Vietnam. Japan aimed to defend its homeland with pointy sticks.

Take me. I don't even have armour or a spear. A spearman could stick me like a pig. Give me a milk bottle, petrol and a match and I'll take on a tank.

I don't think there's any serious Historiographical debate going on here - its just a game. The game is trying to model the perpetual clash of the offense and defense in world military history.

 

[Dillo]

ooops!! KLAABOOM doesnt work either. They are spearmen, At best chathink chathink,The sound of the spear stabbing into the tank commanders chest.. BANG BANG. the sound of bullets from the tank crews sidearms blasing the eyeballs out of the spearman......

 

[Dillo]

Gruntboy armed is the Key!!! Spearmen have only Pointy stick, no arms.... You are saying a man witha stick can beat a tank. Read my past posts in this thread. You cannot compare any modern war to spearman. The last time there was a war with spearman it was the Brits fighting the ZULU and the Americans fighting the Indians. Even still though this issnt accurate, because both the American Indians and The Zulus adapted to modern firearms of the time, as they could pick them up off dead bodies, and trade and buy them. The Zulus of course performed much better than the Indians. Heres the deal though there is NO modern battle that has been fought by and super power that you can compare, Tanks to calvary, and Spearman, to TANKS, AND Infantry. The spearmen and Calvary wouldnt last Long. C'mon Guys lets quit jerking off and makeing excuses here, We are all intelligent beings. Of course occasionaly They could win, but not 47% of the time like it is now.....I wouldnt complain if it wasnt the general rule of combat in CIV III , Why bother to advance in tech, spend the time and the money if, A 4 spearman defending a city and whipe oout 30-5o Infantry and Mech Infantry?Or why Build the Battleship if 2 Caravels are gonna sink it? Why not just stay with Spearmen and Caravels? But then half the game has just become useless hasnt it. See my point?

 

[Gruntboy]

Maybe the Spearmen's peaceful, stress-free, aggrarian lifestyle caused the tankers to question why their despotic, lieing politicians forced them to join the industrialised mass armed force and waste pacifistic spearmen and women. They deserted to begin a new life, joining the harmonious spearmen and women and growing flowers out of their 120mm smoothbore cannon.



No dillo. I never said a man with a stick could beat a tank.

Now a man with a match, that's a different question (hmm, you can make a lot of matches out of a spear staff.... hey!)

 

[Astral]

I agree with the ****ty combat system too, but a solution is to double the units hit points (for conscript to veteran) with the editor - I did it, and now I believe the game is a lot better...
Astral

 

[FlubberDubs]

IMO it would be ludicrously boring to get an automatic win every time you beat the computer to a higher tech, I can' t even believe people want this??? I think tanks are already EXTREMELY lopsided, modern ships too. I just can't believe that peoples idea of fun is "I got to tanks first, GAME OVER, I can build 2 of them since they are the most modern and there defenders w/spears/rifles can't do anything so now I can destroy every single opponent that hasn't reached them yet." BORING Besides that is almost the case now, once I get tanks it is essentially game-over if I have them first. Also, if the computer beat you to tanks and started tearing through your cities even though you were only 20 turns behind in tech, you'd be pissed.

 

[FlubberDubs]

Originally posted by Dillo
Gruntboy armed is the Key!!! Spearmen have only Pointy stick, no arms.... You are saying a man witha stick can beat a tank. Read my past posts in this thread. You cannot compare any modern war to spearman. The last time there was a war with spearman it was the Brits fighting the ZULU and the Americans fighting the Indians. Even still though this issnt accurate, because both the American Indians and The Zulus adapted to modern firearms of the time, as they could pick them up off dead bodies, and trade and buy them. The Zulus of course performed much better than the Indians. Heres the deal though there is NO modern battle that has been fought by and super power that you can compare, Tanks to calvary, and Spearman, to TANKS, AND Infantry. The spearmen and Calvary wouldnt last Long. C'mon Guys lets quit jerking off and makeing excuses here, We are all intelligent beings. Of course occasionaly They could win, but not 47% of the time like it is now.....I wouldnt complain if it wasnt the general rule of combat in CIV III , Why bother to advance in tech, spend the time and the money if, A 4 spearman defending a city and whipe oout 30-5o Infantry and Mech Infantry?Or why Build the Battleship if 2 Caravels are gonna sink it? Why not just stay with Spearmen and Caravels? But then half the game has just become useless hasnt it. See my point?

Dude, for sure you are playing a different game than the rest of us. You don't even want me to do the math on your 4 spearman vs 30-50 Infantry statistic. That didn't happen to you, so please take your lies for dramatic effect elsewhere.

 

[Soufie77]

One of the best feelings to be had with the Civilization series of games was the feeling of overrunning a primitive nation with advanced tanks and bombers - especially so if they'd annoyed you or were being leary. Now that effect of superiority is diminished I do feel that something (albeit minor) is missing from the game. In it's entirety though I still prefer Civ3 over any of its predecessors, or any of the CTP series (eeurgh! yuck! ptooey!)

 

[Gruntboy]

Dillo, I don't see your point, we're not playing the same game. Are you still on Civ1?

By saying the Zulus/Indians got a hold of rifles you are illustrating the point I have been careful to avoid (and that which you are irrated by judging from earlier posts) - that the spearmen are in fact "guerilla" fighters or whatever.

Oh yeah. These Zulus and Indians, are they still around? Have they been wiped from the face of the Earth?

 

[Mike C]

Originally posted by Soufie77
Hmmm... how about Italy's invasion of Abyssinia in 1935. Didn't Mussolini's tanks and infantry have a great deal of trouble against Emperor Haile Selassie's backward army? I think the most advanced military units in his army were armed horsemen... perhaps equivalent to cavalry.

Isolated incident in one battle because of low morale and was followed by a near mutiny of the Italian soldiers.

As the volume of people on this board have indicated. This problem in Civ 3 is anything but insolated.

 

[Mike C]

Originally posted by FlubberDubs
IMO it would be ludicrously boring to get an automatic win every time you beat the computer to a higher tech, I can' t even believe people want this??? I think tanks are already EXTREMELY lopsided, modern ships too. I just can't believe that peoples idea of fun is "I got to tanks first, GAME OVER, I can build 2 of them since they are the most modern and there defenders w/spears/rifles can't do anything so now I can destroy every single opponent that hasn't reached them yet." BORING Besides that is almost the case now, once I get tanks it is essentially game-over if I have them first. Also, if the computer beat you to tanks and started tearing through your cities even though you were only 20 turns behind in tech, you'd be pissed.

You shouldn't be 20 turns behind in the first place. And what we are talking about is the fact that since the computer rarely upgrades, we often have to deal with hordes of them and inevitably, because of the wacky combat system, we start losing valuable troops which we have fewer of because we were so busy teching in the first place so we get pissed off and rightly so.

Geez, more posts with idiotic statements of how the first one researching tanks win the game automatically if we inject a little fix into the combat system. BORING. More posts with people liking fanatsy battles with rocket equipped spears penatrating solid steel armor of tanks. BORING.

 

[Gruntboy]

More people who can't think of a more original flame than "BORING".

 

[Kev]

The way I see it, in Civ3 if you are so much further along the tech tree vs. the AI to the point where your armor are taking on spearmen, then you should be playing a higher difficulty level in the first place. I know that the AI can be a bit slow in upgrading some units, but it's not THAT bad. With the style I play I've thus far been gravitating toward Monarch and Emperor levels. I find that at times I play tech catch-up and times when I can get a brief lead - even if it's on a single "branch". In this way, I don't often find myself matched with units that are 6 upgrades away from each other - usually the most is only 2 or so (knights vs. spearmen or tanks vs. riflemen).

The comparison, however, to Civ2 I think can be misleading - almost comparing apples to oranges really. In Viv2, even in deity, so many of us were adept at getting a huge tech lead early and then going hog-wild whenever we wanted. We had ways of rushing wonders for a lovely science city, we knew how to exploit the AI and in essence use their research for our own, it was MUCH easier to steal tech or take tech with every city we took, and the AI never expanded properly. The player could expand like wildfire and even in a republic the corruption levels were usually tolerable - making a sprawling empire a great way to ensure your tech dominace against an AI who was terrible about proper expansionism.

True, my battleships never seemed to have had a problem with pikemen or legions, but this didn't really make the game more FUN or more of a challenge.

The AI in Civ3 I find to be much better at expanding - something I think we've all discovered - and better with tech as well. On higher levels, I just can't see how one can take a tech lead in the ancient era at all. I think that most of us have to keep up by tech trading and buying with the AI who has expanded like crazy and has traded equally so. And no more building diplomats to supplement our techs when needed. Again, the computer can be slow to upgrade some units - perhaps the sea-going ones most so as they never seem to dock these things in cities. Yet, they are pretty quick to build new units and to be facing galleys with your battleships you probably are playing a too-easy level anyway. Pretend they're ironclads.

I sound very calm, don't I? This is surprising to me as the other night I was cursing as to how destroyers were crushing my battleships and how ironclads were taking out my destroyers. Ah, well... heat of the moment and all that.

 

[Dillo]

Originally posted by FlubberDubs



Dude, for sure you are playing a different game than the rest of us. You don't even want me to do the math on your 4 spearman vs 30-50 Infantry statistic. That didn't happen to you, so please take your lies for dramatic effect elsewhere.

umm yes you freakin ****** it did happen to me. Things like that happen in every game. There are other who have the same trouble. Just because its not happening to you doesnt mean its not happeing to there. I think this is just going to show exactly how random the combat sytem is. And there is some stats here in this thread or mayby another that I agree with. I f 2 Galleys or Caravekls attack one Battle ship the first Galley has about a 1 to 10 percent chance of beating the Destroyer.But It has about a 80% chance of dameageing it, Then that increases the second attackers chance of sinking the Battle Crusier to about 47%. I think those estimates are pretty damn right, at any rate, all of you uys mathmatical rates have a flaw somewhere, something that you have been overlooking. I dunno what it is, but your estimates are flawed somethere. Otherwise this situation would never happen, Dont you think it really pissed me off when those four spearman killed all my forces? I couldnt even damage them.Not with my Infantry or Mech Infantry, Brought over 2 rifleman and took them out in one turn. They attacked me then I attacked them and erradicated them. I can see you being skeptical, but none the less it happened. I dont take kindly to being called a Liar, and in fact I I were in your personal proximity, you would now Don a bloody nose at the very least. Like I siad it goes to show how random the combat is.

I am in no way saying that every battle should be WON, bUT MY GOD MAN, Near 50% of the time modern forces lose to anceint ones. Whats the point of Upgradeing? Just for the looks? Whats wrong with Decimateing a Anceint civ, with spearman and Pikeman when you Have spent the Time, and the tech, and the money,and the research, to make modern units for superiority? Thats Political correctness. Ohhh, Well we will not punish the laggin AI for not beating the player, so we will Punish the player for doing well, By makeing him waste all his time,and money makeing Useless units.

 

[Gruntboy]

Quiet reflection. LOL! I was cursing those Egyptian swordmen last night - "My Legions are are a hundred times better! How can they be defeating me!" LOL.

I must admit, I play Civ so I can rumble over the enemy, drop paras on them and bomb them into the stoneage (what would my counsellor say to that? ). But I can't help thinking that there is so much more to it. What civilization has ever militarily conquered the globe? Alexander came close but it was still only *his* world.

Perhaps some of us had better play RTS or Quake to get that blood fix. The rest can get their god fix from Simcity.

 

[Dillo]

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Dillo, I don't see your point, we're not playing the same game. Are you still on Civ1?

By saying the Zulus/Indians got a hold of rifles you are illustrating the point I have been careful to avoid (and that which you are irrated by judging from earlier posts) - that the spearmen are in fact "guerilla" fighters or whatever.

Oh yeah. These Zulus and Indians, are they still around? Have they been wiped from the face of the Earth?

No they were not wiped from the face of the earth and thats not the point. The point is they lost.... They may be Guerilla fighters, but they still only have pointy sticks. Otherwise the would be a unit call Guerilla fighters. Dont try and make something of it that its not. Stay within the confines of the rules of the game. And Other people are trying to confound the issue by saying that they have ak-47s an such weapons during modern times. And I say no, thats outside the description and rules of the game. They are simply men with pointy sicks nothing more No weapons other than pointy sticks, thats what "SPEARMAN" means. Nothing more. I dont care what your personal opion of these units are because, and thank god, Your personal thought have no bearing in this game whatsoever. Your Opinions are not in the rules, they have nothing to do with the game. So lets stay on target here and discuss the actuall reality of whats going on, not your theory on what the programers had in mind, and by what they have given us as rules and background., Hmmm? Whether you like it or not its happening to a lot of us. Just friggin read some of the threads. Or are you calling them Liars and saying its all made up in those thread to? Are you being paid by Fireaxis?