Diplomacy in higher difficulties

Blitz Spearman

Warlord
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
213
Location
Brazil
How do you handle multiple DoWs at the same time? I started to play on immortal a few months ago, after feeling that emperor was no longer a challenge, but the only times that I can win on immortal are when I start in a geographic position with good defenses, in a way that I can't be attacked by more than one foe at the same time. But when I start in any other position that is not close to a choke point and/or in a corner of the continent, I quickly get DoW'd by multiple AIs, even those with whom I have a DoF (having a DoF in fact seems to make them backstab me even faster. I try to not sell any embassies as I feel that neutral AIs DoW me less than friendly ones).

Why put diplomacy in the game if the higher difficulties just feel like it is the world against you? :(
 
Build more archers early on. Shoot for 6 archers to upgrade into CB's around turn 60 if possible. Larger armies will solve all of your early game diplomacy issues.
 
I am not really mad for the fact that the AI beats me, if that was the case I could always go back to emperor (in fact, I may be doing that, because I am familiar with the "early archer spam > save money for upgrades" approach, but this has not been as effective since this week's patch). What makes me mad is the game totally ignoring diplomacy. Why put features like DoF and embassies in the game if all they do is make the AI more likely to DoW you?

Is there really no way to be in peace with a neighbors during early game? In my last game I had even asked Nobunaga to DoW Boudicca with me (I already had DoF with Nobu, and Boudicca was Hostile), and Nobunaga accepted but asked for 10 turns, only to DoW me in the very next turn. Then Harun Al-Rashid DoW'd me too 5 turns later and I lose 2 of my 3 cities, despite already having CBs, while they did not. :(
 
You can avoid early game wars. But that generally requires either:
1) Having a larger army than your neighbors
2) Not having any close, aggressive neighbors
3) Using your gold to bribe your neighbors into DoWing somebody else

I wouldn't recommend #3 early in the game since gold is too important at that stage.
 
You can avoid early game wars. But that generally requires either:
1) Having a larger army than your neighbors

That simply not correct at all, you can be last in military score and still have a large enough army to prevent the AI from thinking of you as weak.

Having a too small army makes the AI classify you as weak, when your weak the AI can ignore diplomacy.
 
That simply not correct at all, you can be last in military score and still have a large enough army to prevent the AI from thinking of you as weak.

Having a too small army makes the AI classify you as weak, when your weak the AI can ignore diplomacy.

The AI classifies weak as #8 in military score. Generally, in Immortal, you'll need 6 CB's to avoid a DoW. But you're right, that's probably #8 in military anyways. Still, if you don't know how to properly conduct diplomacy, then you might want to get to #4-5 in military score. That's pretty much a surefire way to avoid wars.
 
Still, if you don't know how to properly conduct diplomacy, then you might want to get to #4-5 in military score. That's pretty much a surefire way to avoid wars.

My point exactly is that there is now way to conduct diplomacy, the AI will DoW me even if I have a Declaration of Friendship with them. This is just not right or realistic. I am not complaining that it makes the game too hard, but that it is just bad game design :(
 
My point exactly is that there is now way to conduct diplomacy, the AI will DoW me even if I have a Declaration of Friendship with them. This is just not right or realistic. I am not complaining that it makes the game too hard, but that it is just bad game design :(

There are ways to avoid wars. I frequently have games with zero wars. The diplomacy system is very transparent. It's easy to see danger coming and then avoid it by bribing civs and such. Usually, the AI does not break a DoF unless you're supremely weak or they were already plotting against you. If it's former, then there's nothing to complain about. If it's the latter, then I think that's great game design. I like the fact that the AI will disguise their intent by forging a DoF. Of course, it's really easy to see through it, but that's not an issue with the mechanic itself.
 
There are ways to avoid wars. I frequently have games with zero wars. The diplomacy system is very transparent. It's easy to see danger coming and then avoid it by bribing civs and such. Usually, the AI does not break a DoF unless you're supremely weak or they were already plotting against you. If it's former, then there's nothing to complain about. If it's the latter, then I think that's great game design. I like the fact that the AI will disguise their intent by forging a DoF. Of course, it's really easy to see through it, but that's not an issue with the mechanic itself.

Not sure if this is a change with the patch, but it now seems more difficult to see through, in a good way. In the past, a refusal to renew a long-lasting DoF, or a refusal to renew after a maximum of two past DoFs, always equalled imminent war. Now I can have game-long DoFs only to be backstabbed or face a sudden refusal to cooperate (I can still predict, usually, who the civs will be).

The AI now also seems to be more inclined to take account of defensive pacts (even if they're supposed to be secret) - get a defensive pact with a large neighbour close enough to threaten your rival and they may back down. Or, if not, allow you to get peace on relatively favourable terms soon. I usually do this when I see military buildups nearby - make sure to scout a few tiles outside your borders, since an AI will start setting up for an attack quite a while before actually declaring war, so I grab my closest ally and make a defensive pact. Sometimes making friends with the offending civ's friends or denouncing their enemies will make them rethink their attack as well, by improving relations with you.

Don't waste gold on bribery unless you're desperate - better to spend it on units, as the other civ may take the money and not do much. If you have a defensive pact, the civ thinks it's been attacked when you are, so it will treat the attacker as a personal enemy. You can also use pacts to manipulate an attacker into backstabbing its friends (just form a defensive pact with one of its friends, so if it attacks you it will get the large, almost permanent dipo penalty from backstabbing) - damaging the rival's reputation is a much surer way to get meaningful intervention against them, and may build an alliance of sorts that will help you in the longer term - some civs place a lot of value on the "fought against a common enemy" modifier.

If at all possible, reserve bribery just for cases where you don't expect or plan to be involved in a war yourself, but need to keep rivals occupied. In my current game Siam and the Aztecs are currently in a stalemate, although at some point the Aztecs captured the Siamese second city. If it looks as though Monty may win the war, I'll probably bribe (friendly) Ethiopia (who just founded Lalibela on the same continent) to join the fight - I don't want my rivals to become dominant.

Civ V is a very much more political game than the earlier Civ games, which used diplomacy mainly as an aid to trade, and only became political in the era of the UN. It offers a lot of tools under the general heading "divide and conquer" - make use of them.
 
Not sure if this is a change with the patch, but it now seems more difficult to see through, in a good way. In the past, a refusal to renew a long-lasting DoF, or a refusal to renew after a maximum of two past DoFs, always equalled imminent war. Now I can have game-long DoFs only to be backstabbed or face a sudden refusal to cooperate (I can still predict, usually, who the civs will be).

The AI now also seems to be more inclined to take account of defensive pacts (even if they're supposed to be secret) - get a defensive pact with a large neighbour close enough to threaten your rival and they may back down. Or, if not, allow you to get peace on relatively favourable terms soon.

My method of dealing with stuff like that is to use trades to judge how close we are to war. If I'm only getting 171 gold for a luxury, I bribe them to DoW someone else. Then luxury trades are back to 240 gold :). I haven't really played after the patch, so I don't know how much the AI has changed. But most of diplomacy is just experience. After so many games of getting double and triple DoWed, I learned how to read the signs and avoid war all together.
 
My method of dealing with stuff like that is to use trades to judge how close we are to war. If I'm only getting 171 gold for a luxury, I bribe them to DoW someone else. Then luxury trades are back to 240 gold :). I haven't really played after the patch, so I don't know how much the AI has changed. But most of diplomacy is just experience. After so many games of getting double and triple DoWed, I learned how to read the signs and avoid war all together.

It's possible that's changed as well - I'm getting many fewer unfavourable offers regardless of a civ's attitude, unless it's explicitly neutral or hostile, and the neutral offers are sometimes bad just because the civ's neutral, rather than being a prelude. For instance Haile Selassie refused a reciprocal open borders deal without gold thrown in, but later offered a DoF.

In your case I'd take the 171 gold for a luxury - that will give a "we traded recently" modifier that can sometimes ease relations. As it is I often don't see civs with enough money to trade that much (and I don't exploit the AI, so I only trade for that much if the civ can afford it unless my own financial situation is truly dire), and if I don't need all 240 I'll trade for less because the "we traded recently" modifier is a valuable commodity in its own right. Sometimes I'll just dole out spare resources I have lying around to civs I need onside even if they haven't asked.
 
It's possible that's changed as well - I'm getting many fewer unfavourable offers regardless of a civ's attitude, unless it's explicitly neutral or hostile, and the neutral offers are sometimes bad just because the civ's neutral, rather than being a prelude. For instance Haile Selassie refused a reciprocal open borders deal without gold thrown in, but later offered a DoF.

In your case I'd take the 171 gold for a luxury - that will give a "we traded recently" modifier that can sometimes ease relations. As it is I often don't see civs with enough money to trade that much (and I don't exploit the AI, so I only trade for that much if the civ can afford it unless my own financial situation is truly dire), and if I don't need all 240 I'll trade for less because the "we traded recently" modifier is a valuable commodity in its own right. Sometimes I'll just dole out spare resources I have lying around to civs I need onside even if they haven't asked.

Ehh, I sell my resources for 171 only if no one will buy it for more. I always go to the highest bidder, no matter what. I find that once you bribe civs to DoW each other, everybody wants to be your buddy so they don't get blindsided.
 
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