Nobles' Club 380: Darius of Persia

[Jellybug]

Playing on Immortal. Here's 425 AD:

Spoiler :

Settled in place. Didn't want to be too near the jungle, though in retrospect I think the extra production is worth. Went Mining-BW first. Farmed the river spice for some commerce to get the early techs, felt nice. Then the wheel, then AH once I saw the second cow and that good site to the west (Pasargadae). I even scouted the fish before ruining it intentionally.

Settled the plains cow/ banana/ sharing corn city third. Then I grabbed double gem spot on hill near Shaka. Self teched IW (lol). I made the decision to self tech IW because at that point I had only met Shaka and Toku and Toku already had Alpha. Not the sort of duo I wanted to sit back and build marble wonders against. I did give Glibs a thought but wanted to just get to war. So Maths- Construction - Currency after writing.

Immortals are cute but Shaka seemed far away with jungle all around. I thought if I'd be getting into a slog with a bunch of Impi in the bush then 4 city construction was the way to go. Didn't think I could hit in time with Immortals. Declared in the late BC's with seven catapults, three swords, five axes, and three immortals.

Here's my core land after the first war. Shaka is alive but gimped and I didn't want to take all eight of his garbage jungle cities before he got a chance to develop them for me. Game looks okayish? Little slow to construction because going for the the gems site delayed the invasion. But the economy stayed okay throughout the war so I'm not super behind in tech. Also the fella had eight cities when I declared so it's not like I had any illusions that this would be a quick war.

Here's my new land. It's been slow because most of them them have no food in the first ring or any forest to chop a monument. Ulundi has two barb galleys swarming around like gnats. Already lost a galley to those. But the land looks decent. Wasn't sure about taking peace. My army needed to heal, he started building War elephants somehow (I don't see Ivory, maybe he took a barb city I haven't discovered). I took Horseback riding, archery, and 50 gold for peace to consolidate and get to civil service:

Not sure of the plan now. I think I could finish Shaka off with construction units soon. I would have to build more troops, maybe five to seven infantry and a few cats. So a few rounds of whipping. But my economy is back after happiness came in. I went calendar after construction->currency. Traded calendar for monarchy. 310 Gold for Horseback riding from Pacal looks nice. For now I'm growing to size and then I'll start selectively whipping units again.

Here's the tech picture:

I think Lib is winnable, kinda depends what pacal does... need to get a great science guy out but not sure from where. but I think killing Shaka is more important because he is cutting me off from the rest of the map. Converted to Buddhism recently bc I saw all the cool kids were doing it. I have eight cities, four more from coming Shaka war makes twelve, and there are some barb spots and other sites to settle. As long as I'm reasonably in the tech picture, twelve to fourteen cities should be able to get it done with cannon. I also have a settler I'm not sure what to do with. Plan was to settle the marble and failgold Mausoleum. I think that's still worth a settle rather than waiting thirteen turns for northern border pop. I could also build heroic epic in prep for the slog against Toku eventually.

Diplo looks okayish except for DeGaulle hates me... and you never know with Toku. After Shaka is dead, beeline steel either thru lib or through guilds. To do: finish Shaka, get a scientist, spread religion, prep a golden age.

 

[Jellybug]

Victory! Domination 1824AD:

Spoiler :

Got rifling around 1400AD, most were nearing it. I thought I just caught up economically and I have the chance to vault ahaead. Was pulling 1300 beakers by then, 1st in GDP. Just went ahead straight to tanks. Rolled em. Turns out theyre pretty good against rifles.

Fun map. Weird game. Tech was slow and everyone seemed stuck in jungle. Worked out for me though $$$. Thank you for posting.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Let me join this

Backstory:
I recently won my first game on Emperor difficulty and now I am looking for some sharing of ideas. Monarch was too easy, I won every game with every leader and began to build silly and inefficient midgame, cause the game asn't punishing enough. The first game on Emperor I played with Huanya and won quite comfortable the military way in a starting spot full of floodplains. Well, that is not really balanced. So now here the first real challenge.

Actually I choose only financial leaders to make the start into this skill level. Maybe I comment this a bit more on detail. I would appreciate your feedback. As far as I know myself, my strengths are mainly early-game. In midgame I still tend to build too many buildings instead of wealth. I recently learned the Cuirassur-Rush strategy and because of Darius UU this strategy can be remembered here.

Darius - First thoughts about map:
We see our food in the south, and a river, which can give great spots for cottages (as financial leader we may want early riverside cottages to get used in our commercial superpower early). Sending the scout 1SE is a no-brainer. After that the conclusion stands, we settle 1SE to bet both commercial resources into our BFC.

Darius - First thoughts about technology and growth:
Darius can build more cities because of lower upkeep costs. In our start we see a jungle in the south, so expanding goes north or east. When we would settle in place, a city in the south would be directly connected withut sailing.

Crucial resurces are:
A: Horses (of course)
B: Bronze or Iron

Crucial technologies here are:
- Wheel (we will expand north or east and need to connect it)
- Pottery (we could cottage the spices, before we replace it later)
- Animal Husbandry (for horses!)
- Mining
- BW (of course)
- Code of Laws (the possibility to whip/chop cheap courthouses early)

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Spoiler T1 - T25 :

T1:
After settling scout checks SW to see, that there's a big jungle wall. So no need to go south. Scout will now move clockwise around the city to find other great spots.

Worker is ready in T16, farm is ready in T22. Because we lack improvement possibilities we should next build a mine south of farm. We first go on AH, then Mining and thenafter Wheel. This needs 181 beakers for the base techs and 156/1,4=112 beakers for AH, means 293 beakers. We produce enough until mine is finished, because the city grows. But we hope, that we meet some other civ.

To max out beakers we do: AH -> Mining -> Wheel.
__________________________

T11:
We scouted clockwise around and found out, that the jungle is really dense here. The coastline is rather uninteresting. There are 3 interesting city spots. I think the western one is the best. Northern one can become a commerce powerhouse later, but will have a hard time to grow. The eastern one can turn 1E, to get more greenland, but is not really strong. Now let's progress with our plan and send the scout clockwise through the jungle to see, how thick it is. Next priority is to find some other civs to lower research costs and find out about them.

We can think about building the oracle. But I need more information about the other civs to make this decision.
__________________

T25:
We traveled through the jungle and found Gilgamesh in the east (only a scout, not his border) and Shakas city in the south. Theafter the scout was eaten by 2 panthers. The panthers may have used the spices to get their meal up.
We found gems, but to get them we need to invest heavy into workers.

Now there are 3 main-goals:
1. Scout west
2. Get up the second city
3. Connect the cities

Our capital will use size 3 to pump out a settler. Meanwhile the worker will build a road. But should we settle the spot east or west? Or maybe north?
To use the worker efficiently we build a road on the mine first.

We will first go into BW to chop more workers and settlers first and see how to get iron.

Conclusion:
We had a good start, looking into demographics:

Someone built a second city and had a coastal spot. We are "in" in every category. I set in espionage 100% to shaka now. He seems to do the same at me...

Spoiler T26-56 :

T36:
Everything could be simple. Or maybe not. We scouted a tile in the west and found fish. And now we need to make a decision: We can settle how we planned on the spots or build the seafish-city and move every other city-spot 1E.

Advantage in standard:
- We stay efficient and get up the horse-city up quickly with the cow
- We save time
- We keep our planned great moai spot

Advantage in alternative:
- We get the fish
- We have more overlap, which is good at start
- We get 1C more at the old planned moai spot (even though we lose the moai advantage (9 sea tiles instead of 4)
- We get all in all one more city spot, where 4 of 5 cities are coastal

I will go the alternative way and plan to build the GLH at the horse city.
____________________

T40:

We settled the city and started working the cows. Both cities build workers now, the new one because of lack of other possibilities. Next goal is to connect the cities.

Technologies: Mystics -> Fishing -> Sailing -> (Pottery) -> Stone-Working

We build a settler next and settle Horse City. We start to build Warrior first to scout the west for trade routes and lighthouse directly after. Thenafter we chop out the GLH.
__________________

T46:

Maybe I made a little mistake in micromanaging. The monument is finished one turn before pop growth in Pasargade. I solve this by prechopping a forest near horse city and thenafter chopping the forest at the road. In T50 monument and in T51 the 3rd worker should be ready. Capital will chop out a settler soon. We then need to improve the horses soon to get a better barb defence superior to warriors.


T56:

Everything is in shape now. The fishing boat is ready at spot same moment, when border pops. Lighthouse is ready soon. Because of Darius is organized, we chop down the forests quite before Lighthouse ends right before GLH to maximize overflow. First UU is built in Persepolis.

We made one mistake: We reaearched Pottery to 15% instead of directly going into Stonemasonry. This way we may lose one turn...
Edit: We can solve it by setting Pasargade to use water tile instead of wood.

Conclusion:
That is a quite strong starting position:

Although very low pop we have the biggest land area and a quite strong industry. The horses and the mines make the difference. Getting straight into horses and GLH seems to be an interesting opening


Plan:
We better go into stonemasonry first, so that Horse City can work horses and marble after growing to 2 while building the GLH. Our workers will chop like hell to maximize overflow, and thenafter build roads while they wait for Pottery. And after building the GLH we switch to Slavery.

After capital grows to 5 we build settler to settle Commerce City. With 4 cities, we can fully use GLH in domestic way.

Meanwhile our UU goes west and breaks through this enerving bowman there and one warrior goes east. We need to find good trade partners next.

Techs: Stonemasonry -> Pottery -> Writing

Spoiler Turn 57-83 :

T62:

We get the message, that some civ build the great wall, so there are others with Stonemasonry. GLH needs 24 turns now (maybe I can lower it to ~18, but this is still a big number.

We sent a warrior east and the new UU west.

Shaka has built a city right before our house. Maybe we can kick him out with our superior horse-power. But that's not priority. He shall chop down the jungle for me first.

________________________

T70:

At T70 the fourth city is on the way. In the west our continent ends soon, in the east we have found Tokugawa. In aspects of a well-usable GLH there could be better neighbors... but let's see, if we can find Gilgamesch. Both (gilga and Shaka) seems to be connected to our trade network, so maybe they are both at southern sea.

We changed to slavery now. Pasargade seems to be a very strong city. There are no cottages necessary.

__________________

T74:

We start the library at Pasargade. GLH needs 9 turns. When finished Writing, we had to choose between Alpha, Maths and Iron Working. We choose Alpha because of the possibility to just build research, when necessary. After the lib at Pasargade it will build a settler for the 5th city at the east.

Our total map discovery shows us more and more jungle, but no really interesting city spots. We will now scout in Shakas land. Maybe he has some spots, we can "borrow" from him?
___________________

T80:

We scouted Shaka so far. His capital is very strong in production, with 3 food resources and there seems to be Iron directly East of his capital (see the 5H there). But he seems to lack totally in commerce. His only 2 commerce sources are the 2 gem mines near my spot. When I want to defeat him, I need to cripple his gem city. But when I do this, I lose my trade routes. Additionally I have a problem with his Impis. I don't have Iron yet. It seems best to change my research to Iron Working now.
_________________

T82:

We made it! GLH is ours, in turn 82. Additionally 2 cities have a library (capital and Pasargade). This way we don't really need Alphabet for now, but it will be a good solution later.


Demographics look quite OK:

________________________________

Learnings:
- The overflow mechanic is another than I thought: Building Lighthouse with 100 overflow doesn't give necessary 100 hammers to next building.
- Chopping area is strange. When I chop the forest West of Horse City the hammers go into Pasargade instead of Horse City

All in all the GLH is much harder to achieve now than I thought. But let's try it.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Spoiler T90 - 112 :

T90:

Maybe I was a bit unfocussed, but now the 5th city is ready. I have 2 iron sources here. This means we can attack shakas gem city now, because we can get axes, when necessary to keep his Impis at bay.

Shaka now develops his cities and kicks the jungle.

Here is the research table:

Gilga works on CoL now. Now we need to focus ourselves on Shaka, which means:

- Get many UUs
- Get the possibility to get axes
- Kick out the gem city to cripple his commerce base

T100:

Now every city contributes both on war and commerce. Now it is time to cripple him.


T104:

We made it! Now Shaka will fall behind in tech soon. But our problem is, that he and Toku cuts us from trade routes now.

Correction: I misunderstood the trade route and overflow mechanics and played rather unconcentrated yesterday. So I want to rewind the turns between T104 and T112. There was no game-relevant knowledge, which these turns would give me, so it is okay. En plus I thought about unit usage and found out, that I don't need any archers and should use a combination of axes and immortals instead. So let's rewind this.

Let's see how the game looks:

Our total production is quite strong, biggest problem in our eco is, that we don't have alien trade routes. When we fix it, we can get raw +22C.

In terms of research we have the tech lead. Actually we have meditation 122/124 and get 118 bulbs this turn. So let's make this overflow usable. When I count right, this makes 118*1.2*1.11=157 bulbs, means 155 overflow instead of only 118*1.2=142, when played with finish on turn.

Personally I think, using the bulb overflow mechanics accordingly is much more important than the research 0/100 strategy.

 

[AcaMetis]

The overflow mechanic is another than I thought: Building Lighthouse with 100 overflow doesn't give necessary 100 hammers to next building.

I'm not entirely sure how this mechanic works, but the TL;DR: is that a specific production bonus (like +100% building a Lighthouse as an Organized leader) only applies to as much production as is needed to finish a build, and any excess overflow doesn't get modified as it goes into the next build. So mass chopping Forests into a Lighthouse won't give a massive bonus to whatever is build after the Lighthouse (unless that has its own applicable bonus).

Note, BTW, that the same doesn't apply to whipping populating using Slavery. In that case ORG directly modifies how many hammers each pop sacrificed into a Lighthouse is worth, making it cheaper to whip. It doesn't allow you to create more overflow than you could normally, but it does make it cheaper/easier to get that overflow.

Chopping area is strange. When I chop the forest West of Horse City the hammers go into Pasargade instead of Horse City

In the case of Forest tiles that are within the BFC of two (or more) cities, a chop goes into the city that has the forest tile assigned it, as in has the tile available for a citizen to work. You can change this freely by clicking on the tile while in the city screen of another city. Note, BTW, you don't need a citizen to work the forest tile to have it go into a specific city. Just having it available to work by a citizen in a specific city is enough.

If a Forest tile is outside any city's BFC the chop will go into whatever city the game determines as being closest to the forest, with no way to change that other than settling a city close to the forest.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

That's a great and clear explanation, thanks!

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Question:

Are trade routes symmetric, means when city A has a route to B, so B has to A?

Here in our case I can do open borders with Gilga. My cities don't have trade routes towards him, but he is at my trading network, so his resources go over Shakas area. Can he have trade routes with my cities, while I have none with his cities?

 

[AcaMetis]

Are trade routes symmetric, means when city A has a route to B, so B has to A?

Resource trades are, city trade routes are not. In order for a city to have foreign trade routes you must have discovered a path to another civ's cities that you have signed Open Borders with. This path must not be covered by hostile culture, meaning Barbarians and any civ you are at war with, and you need to either control the route within your culture, or have the technology to form trade routes over it if it's in neutral territory (I.E. you need Sailing to form trade routes over rivers and coastal tiles, but if those tiles are within your cultural borders, they count even without Sailing).

Note, BTW, that the road networks of civs you don't have open borders with count as neutral territory, not hostile territory, for the purposes of trade routes. You can establish foreign trade routes through civs you don't have open borders with, it just poses a challenge in terms of exploration since most units are barred from entering that neutral territory.

Here in our case I can do open borders with Gilga. My cities don't have trade routes towards him, but he is at my trading network, so his resources go over Shakas area. Can he have trade routes with my cities, while I have none with his cities?

Certainly possible. If you don't have a safe or, due to missing technologies, usable route to Gilga's cities (or just plain don't even know where they are) you will not get trade routes with them even if you open borders. Gilga, however, can get trade routes with your cities if he has his own safe route and knows where your cities are.

It can still be worth it to open borders, mind you. It boost diplomatic relations, and giving an AI access to your trade routes generally isn't that big of a boon to them, as in most cases they'll have other trading partners giving them foreign trade routes anyway.

 

[soundjata]

Regarding overflow,

Every hammer you get over the building (or unit) the city finishes goes through a division, by your next turn production multiplier on that specific building. (For example organized lighthouse overflow gets divided by 2)

Then the result is capped to the hammer value of the completed building (60 for lighthouse),
then reintroduced in the hammer queue...

So it is advantageous to switch to production enhancing civics (police state, bureaucracy, state property, ...?) after max overflow is obtained.

On the other hand, overflow hammers on production buildings (forge, Palace, etc...) get punished! (for example if you complete a forge with 20 overflow, the game will only reintroduce 16 in the queue next turn, which does not seem logical because those 20 were in fact obtained without the benefit of the forge...)

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

[...]
Note, BTW, that the road networks of civs you don't have open borders with count as neutral territory, not hostile territory, for the purposes of trade routes. You can establish foreign trade routes through civs you don't have open borders with, it just poses a challenge in terms of exploration since most units are barred from entering that neutral territory.

Ah, I didn't know this. So it is not important, whether Toku likes me enough or not, I still can get to the other civs behind him?

Certainly possible. If you don't have a safe or, due to missing technologies, usable route to Gilga's cities (or just plain don't even know where they are) you will not get trade routes with them even if you open borders. Gilga, however, can get trade routes with your cities if he has his own safe route and knows where your cities are.

It can still be worth it to open borders, mind you. It boost diplomatic relations, and giving an AI access to your trade routes generally isn't that big of a boon to them, as in most cases they'll have other trading partners giving them foreign trade routes anyway.

OK, so I need to do these things practically:
1. I need to find and defog a network-path (roads, rivers, coastline) to Gilga
2. I need to make sure, there's no hostile civ or barbarian city in between
3. I need the necessary techs

Question: What about enemy units/ships, which block the path?

Yea, I thought about it. Getting his religion would give me diplomatic advantages. Declaring war to Shaka wasn't a thing they liked, although they were neutral towards Shaka.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Regarding overflow,

Every hammer you get over the building (or unit) the city finishes goes through a division, by your after the turn production multiplier on that specific building. (For example organized lighthouse overflow gets divided by 2 in between turns)

Then the result is capped to the hammer value of the completed building (60 for lighthouse),
then reintroduced in the hammer queue...

So it is advantageous to switch to production enhancing civics (police state, bureaucracy, state property, ...?) after max overflow is obtained.

On the other hand, overflow hammers on production buildings (forge, etc...) get punished! (for example if I complete a forge with 20 overflow, the game will only reintroduce 16 in the queue next turn, which does not seem logical because those 20 were in fact obtained without the benefit of the forge.)

Similarly, switching to bureaucracy (with anarchy) on the turn your capitol is finishing a building means the overflow will get punished as well (divided by 1.5)

Let me get this straight:

1. When I have 20 overflow hammers and switch to organized religion (from multiplier 1.0), I get 25 overflow hammers.
2. When I finish a forge with 20 overflow hammers, I get only 16
3. When I finish a forge with 20 overflow hammers and switching to organized religion same turn, I stay with 20 hammers

Right?

 

[soundjata]

@Master_Of_Ideas
I added one more paragraph in the previous post to clarify another case.

Building a forge (/palace etc...) will always result in a hammer penalty (hm developers?) regardless of other parameters.
Switching civics should be timed after completion to reap benefits.

 

[AcaMetis]

Ah, I didn't know this. So it is not important, whether Toku likes me enough or not, I still can get to the other civs behind him?

If you can uncover a secure route and explore the civs behind him, yes. You generally don't need to worry about AI road networks, they're very heavy on roading their territory.

Question: What about enemy units/ships, which block the path?

By themselves enemy units, land based, ships or otherwise, do not block the path. However land units can pillage improvements, including roads, destroying the path. Ships can choose to spend their turn to Blockade, which creates a sizeable zone around the unit that traders cannot go through and citizens cannot work. It doesn't have any combat effects, but it will disrupt coastal cities. Barbarians generally don't bother doing this IIRC, but hostile civs (particularly Privateers, which are special units that always count as hostile to all other civs) will.

 

[Fippy]

On the other hand, overflow hammers on production buildings (forge, Palace, etc...) get punished! (for example if you complete a forge with 20 overflow, the game will only reintroduce 16 in the queue next turn, which does not seem logical because those 20 were in fact obtained without the benefit of the forge...)

Yup that's really weird, i remember planning caravels on an Iso map..
with a forge + overflow that comes out 1t before optics.
And suddenly there were some of the 60 missing.
Strikes me as bug

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Spoiler T90 - 112 :

T90:
View attachment 735810
Maybe I was a bit unfocussed, but now the 5th city is ready. I have 2 iron sources here. This means we can attack shakas gem city now, because we can get axes, when necessary to keep his Impis at bay.

Shaka now develops his cities and kicks the jungle.

Here is the research table:

View attachment 735811

Gilga works on CoL now. Now we need to focus ourselves on Shaka, which means:

- Get many UUs
- Get the possibility to get axes
- Kick out the gem city to cripple his commerce base

T100:
View attachment 735812

Now every city contributes both on war and commerce. Now it is time to cripple him.


T104:
View attachment 735867

We made it! Now Shaka will fall behind in tech soon. But our problem is, that he and Toku cuts us from trade routes now.

Correction: I misunderstood the trade route and overflow mechanics and played rather unconcentrated yesterday. So I want to rewind the turns between T104 and T112. There was no game-relevant knowledge, which these turns would give me, so it is okay. En plus I thought about unit usage and found out, that I don't need any archers and should use a combination of axes and immortals instead. So let's rewind this.

Let's see how the game looks:
View attachment 735868
Our total production is quite strong, biggest problem in our eco is, that we don't have alien trade routes. When we fix it, we can get raw +22C.

View attachment 735869

In terms of research we have the tech lead. Actually we have meditation 122/124 and get 118 bulbs this turn. So let's make this overflow usable. When I count right, this makes 118*1.2*1.11=157 bulbs, means 155 overflow instead of only 118*1.2=142, when played with finish on turn.

Personally I think, using the bulb overflow mechanics accordingly is much more important than the research 0/100 strategy.

Let's do a strategic analysis. What are important strategic growth possibilities and what is their effort?

Spoiler Strategic analysis :

1. We could activate our trade routes to Gilga and De Gaulle and maybe behind. I have 22 domestic trade routes. Getting 10 more cities means +12C up to +22. Even more, when I expand. When they get currency, it even makes it much more worthy.
Effort: We need concentrated scouting and maybe we need to wipe out or conquer Shakas northern city on a hill. It is poorly defended, so maybe 1 axe loss. Shaka will lose a bad city and can better his eco and we need additionally 20-30 worker turns more. Alternatetively it could suffice to scout the area so that we can find a way through Tokus territory.

2. Soon our great scientist is ready. Long-term the gem-city is the best position for it, short-term it is the worst. But the additional culture could help us in our war efforts. Effort: We get only 6 bulbs instead of 10 short-term. But we boost a commerce city instead of a production city and get a mild culture comb there. Gem city vs. Persepolis:

3. We should focus more on cottaging, maybe even cottaging the calendar resources. But calendar can soon be researched. Effort: More workers, less army.

4. We even could try to finish Shaka. Effort: We need catas and delay our economic progress. And Shaka is really hard to beat in classic age. We can only effectively kill him with crossbows and masses of catas. This needs a massive amount of bulbs.

5. We could conquer a new barb city in the east, with coast, Iron, rice and banana. Effort: 3-4 immortals, some workers. Costs would be nullified by GLH.

6. We could chop out all the woods to build our army quicker. We lose worker turns and the woods for saw mills later, and maybe get some dirty workplace areas instead. But we get troops.


Effectively there are these decision:

1. Scout the way to Gilga or not? Yes, it is cheap.
2. Stop open borders with De Gaulle? Maybe our stop has no the effect on his eco, so better no. Maybe they ccan spread their religion at my spots
3. Build a big army, hit our eco and try to finish Shaka now? No, the economic progress will be hit too much. We should play this defensively and focus more on calender resources and some more workers, maybe even new front cities for the next 30 turns. We have achieved our goal
4. There's a little barb town in the west with Iron, rice, banana and much jungle. Conquer or not? Yes, but: Worker and calendar first, after that we see further.
5. Chop down every wood, including the plains woods? No, not everyone, just the grassland ones.

So what's to do?

1. Scout the west to find a route to Gilga. Use an immortal.
2. Reinforce every front town with 1 axe and 1 immortal
3. Build 2 more workers, concentrate on cottages and roads.
4. Chop the remaining woods or not?
4. Build academy at gem city
5. Research calendar
6. Get all the calendar resources

Delayed decision until T120:

1. Wipe out Shakas northern city? Maybe conquer it instead?
2. Focus the war or play defensively to get better eco & tech first?
3. Build 4 immortals and spare a worker to get the barb city in the far west?
4. Go for Mausoleum in our capital?

What are the pro gamers thoughts?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Spoiler T104 - 125 :

T112:

Our front cities are safe now, walls are on their way. And shaka is ready for peace, he even would give me 40 gold for this. I think he will declare war to me soon again, when my academy starts to take some tiles from him, so I can accept it and use the 10 turns for settling and working towards better techs meanwhile. He won't get into a relevant science state as soon.

We additionally see, religion makes harsh differences between the other civs.

Our scouting reveals, Toku is blocking the direct way towards Gilga now. I hope, I can find a road from his area to the river soon.

Learning for later: When there is Toku around the corner in a narrow path, scout as quickly as possible to find a path through his territory.

Maybe I should consider gifting him a city at the coast?

Next plans for 10 turns peace:
- Persepolis and Eastern City progress with army production (axes and immortals)
- Pasargade builds more workers
- A small troop of 5 immortals conquers the western barb city
- The workers buildup all the calendar resources
- The scouts reveal ways for the other players and try to find the last one
- We won't trade currency until one of 'em has researched it already

T113:
We got the trade routes now. Look at this s-h-i-t :

We are 1st in every production category now, and second in population, where another civ is 3 times bigger. Our land area will grow now, because we build an additional settler for settling the western coast. With every northwest coastal spots done we will pause settling and concentrating on war tech again.

Our cities will now get granaries for the growth phase next.

_______________________

T117:
First religion spread, while every other civ has a religion yet and strong differences towards their neighbor...

I sell Iron for 1 Gold to Mayans now. Toku and Gilga will be at war soon. And Mayans will be in same situation with the French. Who is the 7th guy here?

Now it is a good time to share currency for metalcasting and monarchy:

The 7th guy had build colossus 300 years ago. And he built Kashi, so he is a neutral one - like me at the other corner of the world.
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T120:

At turn 120 we have founded 7 cities and got every important city spot. We lack workers now. We are at turn to fulfill the planned goals. In 2 turns Shaka can redeclare war again, with the same weak technology, while mine has progressed to catas. The western coast is on a very weak position.

Our capital builds the Mausoleum. This is quite risky, because the capital was one of the 2 cities with barracks. The other cities may help here, but they are still weak. Maybe we have to switch now and then to army instead of the wonder...

Research focusses on machinery now, because crossbows are the best stop for Shakas Infantery based army now. But this needs maybe 10 turns...

Our cities are on a strong growth path, but this focusses more on commerce than on hammers. So we ride into a period of dangers...

T125:
Our cities seem fine now, even though we need more walls. Axes defend the westcoast now.

I build army like hell to discourage Shaka from declaring war. But there is another problem: De Gaulle seems to like Shaka and is maybe plotting a proxy war against me (as his sharpest competitor):

He sells Elephants to Shaka!

This is crazy. Shaka still cannot build catas, but now the war goes to another level...

Last guy I have seen is Wang Kon. Noone likes him, and he is not really strong in tech. But he builds wonders. I am lucky he hasn't calendar yet...

___________________

Strategic thoughts:
Shaka will soon attack with elephants. They will have no city attack bonus, that's why I can defend with crossbows and walls quite well. That's why there's no need to trade for Ivory myself. To prepare against Shaka I need 1 time promoted city defence crossbows and walls. That's why we need to change our defence plan:

1. Pasargade, Horse City and Gem City needs their barracks
2. The western coast-cities need walls and monument (for culture defence)
3. We build catas and archers until machines. Archers will get promoted.

We will decide in some turn, whether we should go on aestetics or directly machinebuilding

Spoiler T126 - 150 :

T128:
Machines are ready and we have 2 barracks more. First crossbow in 2 turns.
Shaka converted to Confuzianism. Now French, Sumerian and Zulu (the south fraction) are same religion. I see a vision: Shaka declares war, gets city and before I can conquer it back, the Pope wants peace...
Toku got the fist. He will plot against Gilga, I think.
At turn 129 Shaka gets the fist. I should prepare my defence now.

T131:
He declared war. And directly killed 2 workers... my defence is ready. Let's see, what happens.
Actually his only bigger attacking group is in the east near Gem City. They seems to be easy:

In T132 he has thrown the complete group against the city. Every attacker died without to many casualities.
Well... the city has only 39% persian culture, so he sends me war weariness with this operation...

In T133 again, Shaka sacrificed 2 units.
Gilga seems to be advanced in tech now. We sell civil service to Toku so that he can get catas in attacking. I don't want Gilga get an easy win...

T138:
Shaka destroyed one of my Iron mines. His army can only make little trouble, most problems are directly solved by my crossbows. My lack of workers now kicks in hard. We finished Literature now, which means, Capital gets Great Library and thenafter Hero Epic.

Shaka built the Hanging Gardens directly at my first attacking spot. I appreciate that. Now let's go for machine building first and thenafter we attack with trebuchets. And when necessary, pikes are ready for combating the elephants. 13 turns. I take the time to rebuild workers and the Great Library before finishing him off. He cannot do any serious harm...

T143:

We switched the goal and brought a small attacking group to the east corner of Shakas empire. I want to kick him out here. He has some workers inside. when I attack quicker, I can capture 'em in payoff for some troops. He has only archers and Impis there.

De Gaulle asked me about aestetics. I gave it to him, because he has no real chance for getting Partheon without marble. And when he gets it, so what? Then I get a good amount of failgold. Great lib needs 6 turns, Partheon 15 turns. After Great lib we build Hero Epic and thenafter spam out trebuchets and pikes there. We settled a great general here too.

T149:

We got 3 workers and a nice city spot with a new happiness resource. Shaka mobilized his infantery all over the spot, but we can defend with our superior crossbows. Now we can go into machine building.

It's a pity, our capital cannot yet build Hero Epic. We need to build trebuchets on the standard way.

Shakas war weariness of 55 begins to kick in now.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Question to the pros here:
Gilga has developed Feudalism. It could happen, that Shaka tries to be vassal of Gilga, which forces me into a much greater war than I wanted. How would you work with it or maybe prevent it? I really want to kick out Shaka completely. He has a wonder I would like to overtake (Hanging Gardens) and a quite juicy capital. I don't ant to vassal him for myself, but could imagine to do it when there's no other option...

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Spoiler T150 - 193 :

Strategic analysis:
We now have 9 cities, 6 of them strongly contributing to our efforts, 2 are actually built, one is in need. We have GLH, GLB, Mausoleum and we are working on Parthenon. We are well-suited for getting Music as First, which means a Golden Age. We are at war against Shaka, but he acts rather weak. He attacks only with infantery, while we have crossbows. Despite his stronger war attributes, he cannot do anything. We are one of the tech-leading civs and have complementary techs to our opponents.

Problems:
- We lack in workers
- We don't know enough about our opponents demography, we just see Shaka, Pacal and know about general demographics, our army is second best
- De Gaulle as our strongest opponent is in the strongest religious faction (I don't have this religion enough to effectively change)

Todo-List für next 10 turns:
- Get Engineering and build 5 trebuchets
- Get 1 more worker
- Develop Music
- Get next city Ondini

T153:
We got Parthenon. Now our Golden Age can get much more effective. We need mostly the hammers and the GPs from it. Our army is in position right before Ondini and begins to bomb the walls with catas. We will march in with trebs.

T155:
We traded Feudalism from the Mayans fpor machinery and Writing. Great!

T157:
We got Ondini and won the music race. And traded Music to Gilga against Riding and CoL. Gilga has vassaled Pacal peacefully.

Next research will be Civil Service. Meanwhile we build some axes to make it easier to finish Shaka off. Because Gilga has vassaled Pacal, it is rather unlikely Shaka is his next vassal. Shaka could be vassaled by De Gaulle, which is dangerous, but De Gaulle is far away from me and I have enough time to prepare my defence then. It seems we can kill him off freely. Shaka has 3 interesting coastal cities, one strong inland city, another one I will raze and I plan 2 more settlings for myself. This will be altogether 16 cities, making persia the biggest civ in the game.

T158:
Eeks. Wo got a Great Artist instead of a great scientist in our cap...

Next step: Golden Age.

Use: Vassalage, Serfdom (6-10 turns) -> Slavery, Organized Religion
Religion: Buddhism is most frequent now

Goal:
1. Get as many GP points as possible in every city which has enough food (Persepolis, Pasargade, Kap City), for this we whip next turn a last time. We don't use caste, because we can barely keep more than 3 GPs per city actually.
2. Use the workers for improvements
3. Build courthouses: We may only save 3 per city, but we get 2! In the end we can get much more information than before. And our courthouses are cheap.
4. Get a bit more units (axes, trebs) for conquering

T159:
Got a great general and promoted him to a special Immortal with Healing 3.
Shaka comes with war elephants. We need pikes to keep him at bay.

Last whippings now. Start GA. Switch civics like planned. Switch religion. Have fun.

T170:
The GA was played straight-forward: We got several GP points, one Great Scientist, some troops with vassalage XP power, many unit upgrades and 4 courthouses, 4 more are coming now. The Great Scientist builds an academy in Persepolis. We even stopped research.

But we got the proof, that earth is round - even though we had never build any ship, haha.

We end the GA by transforming back to Slavery and forward to Buerocracy. Now our capital builds every commerce-related building it can do. Our army is big enough now, we stop building units and set every town to research or wealth building or maybe some other base infrastructure.

In aspects of war we didn't make that big progress. We get Shakas next city next turn. We have factor 2.0 now. He has war weariness 122 and won't get back until he is dead.

T171:
Got Shakas next city. Only a granary and a Great Engineer inside. Next is the capital.

T177:
Ulundi is conquered. It has Granary, Market, Hanging Gardens and a great Military Coach. 3 cities left.

T182:
Finally got his most eastern city and captured 4 workers. Two cities are left now. We're farthest at liberalism race now. De Gaulle tried to press me Engineering. I declined. Let's prepare deff and more. He is Pope now... so we may need a peace contract with Shaka, before we can kill him off. Worst scenario is that he will be vassal of someone else.

I am a bit late at this, but now I decide to build Hero Epic in capital. I would do National Epic instead, but this production city here is too interesting. It is my military center and soon we need to rebuild the army...

At first we win liberalism, after that we rebuild. and do a cuirassir rush attempt.

T184:
Shaka is now a french vassal. So we are at war with De Gaulle. But when we look at the geography, De Gaulle cannot come to us except of the sea-way in the south. So we can kill Shaka with ease, until we work with De Gaulle.

T189:
Got another city. Only one left!

T193:
Last of shaka city was fallen today.

Now we have everything. Let's reconsolidate now and build a new plan. We see, that we will probably win the Lib race. But nationalism is researched by 2 civs instead. From every opponent Gilga seems to be the most dangerous now.

Spoiler T194 - 225 :

Strategic analysis:
We will probably win Lib Race and technologically we stand right before cuirassirs. Our most productive city is the capital, which holds Hero Epic. With marble we still have good chances for the Taj Mahal, but every turn we invest in it, we lose one cuirassir with 7 XP for our attack. The next aim will bei Toku, whom I want to attack with. Hard decision: Should we give Taj Mahal a try or not?

Answer: Gilga built 4 of the last 5 wonders, has buerocracy and marble and has Nationalism already. we won't make it. Better build the army.

Generally I have a problem: Our cap isn't specialized: It creates GPs (great lib), it has the Hero Epic, it is the best place for wonders. Maybe Hero Epic had should better be built elsewhere? For National Epic: I could build it in capital or maybe in Ulundi, which has a similar structure and enough food. The I have 2 GP farms... so I decide: Build National Epic in Ulundi. Pasargade gets Moai.

We now specialize every city. The biggest commerce cities should think about building markets. Every city, which has some more than 10H (even the commerce-cities) , should get a forge and maybe barracks.

Phase 1:
- Open Borders with Toku
- Stop the trading blockade against Wang Kong, he need to be ready, when the French attack him. And he has money!
- Trade with Gilga: Paper for theology
- Develop Liberalism, get Nationalism
- Build National Epic in Ulundi (perspectively) and Moai in Pasargade
- Settle the last open spot
- Build last buildings needed and spread Buddhism

Phase 2:
- Switch to Vassalage and Theocracy
- Build 20+ immortals, some pikes, some trebs and maceman
- While developing the prerequisites for cuirs, save money for upgrading

Alternatively:
Prepare war against the French. They have elephants. This may get hard with cuirs...

T196:
I really have bad luck: Instead of a great engineer I got a great scientist, and now instead of a great scientist I get a great artist... against the chances. I spare them for GAs later.

I will go for printing press first. This is assumingly additional +50C and I can try to trade Nationalism with Pacal.

T197:
Such a greedy bastard:

Let's wait some turns. Toku seems to be a weak target but he has Longbows in hilled and walled cities... Even for cuirs this may be harsh. But the french guy is falling back more and more in research. Ahh.... don't know, hat to do now...

T199:
Thats sounds better, but still he is crazy greedy. I won't forget about this:

So okay, let's progress with Phase 2. I recognized, that Vassalage vs Buerocratic isn't a good business, because maybe I get 17 free units more, but I lose more than 17G in capital. But I don't really need Organized religion, because most of the older cities are finished with buildings for now...

T203:
Switch to theocracy. Now every city should build immortals. We go for the French. A slower defence army for the conquered cities will be sent after:

T213:
My preparations seem to be a bit weak. I have only 10 cuirs so far and can upgrade 4 more. Even though more are build (~2 per turn), it can be hard to do this rush.

The aims are Marseilles and Avignon. We can conquer both by surprise:

Next steps:
- Start sending the slower part of the army now
- Build spies and send them to De Gaulle
- Upgrade the rest of the army for next 5 turns and wait for more cuirs
- Send the cuirs, when they are ready

T217:
Scouted avignon. A simple pike killed my cuir. Seeing this city I would assume we need 15 cuirs for taking the city. We have 18 free cuirs now and can upgrade some more. Spies on their way now.

I get some doubts: May first conquering Toku be the better idea? The French seems to be very strong in army and Toku is much easier... and the French get their uniques soon, while Samurais should be beatable by my cuirs...

OK, switch to Toku. He plots something btw.

T219:
OK, I decided to give Toku Blackpowder for Compass. I want him to start warring his plot, and thenafter kick him. I meanwhile go for steel. 27 cuirs now.

T222:
Toku seems to plot, but nothing happens. And when I would be him, I wouldn't attack Gilga either. Toku is technologically too weak. But I cannot wait anymore. I want to vassal him, get Guilds and then want to go to war with him on my side. 28 Cuirs waiting on his first city, an siege army at a second. Let's roll!

T223:
Lost 5 cuirs for Kagoshima. But well, this was worth it:

We reinforce it directly with archers and crossbows. Second city was quite OK. Lost 10 armies in total. Hey, Toku now can send his stack on my city to try to conquer back and thenafter we go for the next cities...

T225:
We got Tokio, and it is quite well built. Maybe I should conquer Toku completely, when every of his cities are so well-developed?

T227:
Japanese were harder than I thought. Even though they lost many armies, they conquered Tokio back. Let's think about this...