Do you risk early hut science penalty?

Do you open huts before monarchy?

  • Never.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Conservatively.

    Votes: 3 20.0%
  • Like Pacman.

    Votes: 11 73.3%

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Pongui

Deity
Joined
Apr 30, 2002
Messages
4,342
I've read alot of strategies that suggested I go forth gobbling. When I did this, it bombed my science, and I couldn't get out of despotism.

Now, I won't touch a hut 'till I get monarchy. But maybe that's too severe. Or should I trade hut science for monarchy from the AI? Or capture monarchy?
 
I tend to open huts whenever I can find them.

The only exception is if I have just popped a one barbarian hut. After that I may not open a hut surrounded by land within 3 to 10 squares of a cluster of undefended cities on the same continent. That is because that hut might produce 8 barbarians. However if I have both Writing and the money to bribe them; I may risk that.

If you are one or two turns away from researching monarchy; it may be worth waiting; otherwise my advice is to pop that hut.

Yes; if stuck in despotism with monarchy a long way off, do bully (demand tribute), capture, steal (diplomat) or trade with AIs for it.
 
I personally have a fairly complex set of "rules" bosed in large part on several things, including the point in the game, what science I'm researching, where my science is (how many beakers I have and how many to go) for critical advances, being pressured by the AI in the science dept, the number and size of existing cites, how much gold I have (can I affort to buy a settler to kill the city before size 2, if it's in a bad spot), is an AI unit nearby (and thus might pop the hut if I don't), the availability of supporting units (es. dips) to kill/bribe barbs that come out, and of course, can I affort to lose the unit doing the popping.

Usually, I can affort to lose the unit, unless it's a dip on teh way to do a specific mission.... those cases, esp. in early game, tend to let a later unit get the glory of the pop.

In the first few game turns, I will pop every hut, since the odds of units seem higher (I have not done a full parametric test).

The most devastating results in early game are usually trash advances (like HBR and Warrior Code), as sell as Advanced Tribes (usually in bad spots, high corruption, and happiness killers). The "best" result IMHO is a Nomad. Smash has posted some very interesting ideas about this and the use of NONE settlers vis-a-vis huts. Gold is a kind of Neutral outcome.

In many cases, the 2nd most desirable outcome is Barbs... this is esp. true when popping huts closer to AI cities, in teams of 2 or 3 units, or when you have Trireme/Caravel/Galleon/Transport support (e.g., pop, get barbs, bribe what you can, hop on ship, let the other barbs stay behind).

Usually, it seems to cost me about 2 units per game to pop huts... and usually because of John Wayne-ing it without waiting for more Dip support in the midgame.

Another midgame consideration is support. At midgame, I don't like Units that get attached in a remote area under Republic/Democracy. On rare occasions, I get a unit and have to disband it because of happiness and it's remote location.

My method is between Conservative and pacman, so I picked Conservative in the poll.

:)
 
Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
I've read alot of strategies that suggested I go forth gobbling. When I did this, it bombed my science, and I couldn't get out of despotism.

Now, I won't touch a hut 'till I get monarchy. But maybe that's too severe. Or should I trade hut science for monarchy from the AI? Or capture monarchy?
My games are usually started from an accelerated start setup(2.000 BC), so am not used to this opening tech problem.
Despotism is way of life for me in a GotM CIV game !!

I may not pop them right away, but have rarely seen a hut, i didn't pop.

My "conservative" approach is to the popping of huts is to use them as a guide, as to where the settlers should place there cities. Build another settler; pop the hut with the new settler; or oncoming units.
 
I always make sure I get all huts but usually I make sure I always have a survival plan if 8 barbarians pop out. I am a conservative when it comes to early goodie-hut popping.
 
I have a question, armor. How often do you lose with this strategy and what kind of units do you use to open the huts with.

BTW, this is my 1000th post at CFC, congratulations to me!!!!
:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
Yes, sometimes this causes me to lose. I pop them with warriors, then hopefully I get some 2 move units. Send these horsemen, chariots, elephants exploring the flatlands continue the warriors on the rough terrain. Once I get seafaring explorers take over. Oh and I try to pop at least one with my starting settler. Hm the question was how often not if. I'd say this causes me to lose 20%. It's only a game :P
 
I pop them as I find them, but usually with a good defensive unit. If I am exploring with a horseman (esp. a NON), I will let him continue exploring and send a phalanx/pikeman in to meet with the natives.

It is frustrating when you find an advanced tribe due to the typically poor city location, but I will use that city as a "springboard" city -- using it to build settlers and phalanx/pikeman only until the area is "defendable". :soldier: Consider it a gift and let it be the 'gift that keeps on giving'! :goodjob:
 
It is best just to disband unwanted advanced tribes and then either move the settler to a new location and found another city or, if the city was close to the enemy, then hot-tail it out of there and return the NONE settler to your homeland for free improvement. :goodjob:
I disband practially all of the early advanced tribes I get and only keep them if they are tactically worthwhile or later in the game when they are size 3 and I can't be bothered to disband.
 
Originally posted by duke o' york
It is best just to disband unwanted advanced tribes and then either move the settler to a new location and found another city or, if the city was close to the enemy, then hot-tail it out of there and return the NONE settler to your homeland for free improvement. :goodjob:
I disband practially all of the early advanced tribes I get and only keep them if they are tactically worthwhile or later in the game when they are size 3 and I can't be bothered to disband.
Disband Advanced cities. I suppose when you conquered the Celts and Zulus, you disbanded there very poorly placed cities.While your moving the city the population cant grow POP and produce , Goods, Science & Trade.
Any advanced city beats having Barbarians pop out by a large shot. Accept the plus on the hole/whole/hut and play on
 
If the huts never contained science, I'd gobble and love it. But isn't a Scroll of Ancient Wisdom far worse than losing a unit to barbarians? I'm trying to get monarchy asap and every Scroll hurts my development rate. At the earliest stage of the game, two or three scrolls can set the rate to 50+ turns.
 
by LordValuna to Duke o' York:

I suppose when you conquered the Celts and Zulus, you disbanded there very poorly placed cities.

As a matter of fact, I personally disband lots of cities in a game. It is more of an art than a science to decide when it is worthwhile, combined with the game strategy and the expected mode of finish, and number of turns until finish.

I disbanded Carmethan, and two others. If I had suddenly not decided to end the game early, a couple more cities were headed for the scrapheap.

But the point you make about the drawbacks is very important, and is the counerbalance for each case-by-case city disbandment.

Without getting too digressed, I personally look at the terrain and say "Ask not what the terrain can do for me, but ask what I can do to the terrain" (Sorry for the mangled quote, John F. Kennedy :lol: ). What I mean is that assuming a full and massive game, I view the terrain not as it is, but for how I will transform it and make the cities fit. If a city is out of place, I like to kill it eraly and move it to where I want it. In GOTM 016, I built one city on a hill and two on swamps and several on Forests, and fixed the terrain later. My own paramount concern is that the city grow to fulfill the trade and production tasks I envision in late game.

The other bad thing about Advanced Tribes in the early game is that I don't have MC & JSB yet, and happiness for me is literally on a razor's edge. A new city often means either chopped production or an Elvis somewhere else. And I'm hacked if it hurts one of my 10s IPRB caravan cities. In some gmes, that can domino and actually lose a wonder race. In GOTM 016, I lost the Pyramids for the first time in I don't know when.... but it was not because of Advanced Tribes, however :).
So it's all just various strategy...

And about early game barbs... I like using Dips to pop huts, and in early game, a barb horsie is only 41g to bribe... if it is closer to the AI cities, it'll be a NONE vet Calary when it grows up! Personally, I'd rather have a barb horsie than HBR in an early hut, that's almost always for sure! Just personal preference....
 
Originally posted by starlifter
And I'm hacked if it hurts one of my 10s IPRB caravan cities.

Huh?? :confused: :confused: Can you edu-ma-cate me on this, starlifter?
 
Since he doesn't seem to be here at the moment then maybe I can step into his very large shoes and help you out. :D

A 10s IPRB city is one of the major milestones at the beginning of the game. Basically, the 10s means that the city has 10 shields. IPRB stands for incrementally partial rushbuying. This is one of the best techniques to ensure you get early wonders without the enormous production capacity of factories.
When rushbuying, it is possible to buy the wonder or improvement or whatever straight off from 0 shields but this is incredibly expensive. IRPB is a system whereby you start building a cheap unit, buy it and then change the production to another unit and buy that too, buying up as many shields as possible for the lowest price possible.
EG: I want to build a caravan and my city produces 10 shields per turn. (as above ;)). I set the build orders to phalanx and end the turn. The city will produce ten shields towards the phalanx. Then I buy the remaining 10 shields to complete the phalanx. In order that the phalanx is not completed next turn, I change the build order from the phalanx to an archer (requiring 30 shields) and buy the remaining 10 shields to complete the archer. I then change this to a unit requiring 40 shields (crusader, catapult or elephant spring to mind) and buy that before changing the production to a caravan and allowing it to be completed by the shields on the next turn. This way you can have a caravan every 2 turns which will go a long way to building all those wonders you have been lusting after.

It is important to stock up some shields before buying as it is prohibitively expensive to just buy a phalanx or warrior or whatever straight off. :nono: This can of course be done with less than ten shields but since they finish the first row of production then this makes the whole process lots cheaper and you get to produce more caravans for your money.
Starlifter's point is that if he had to create an entertainer in one of his cities that was otherwise producing 10 shields a turn then this would spoil his production of caravans, lose him wonder races and cost him far more than the newer city to bring to his civ.
 
Thanks, duke! :goodjob: That helps!

I suppose another similar strategy is to multiple build the same WOTW and switch to the one you want later (e.g. right before you are ready to finish the one you are producing), or IRPB up the WOTW chain.

In several games, I have started the Oracle in five or six cities, then successfully switched to Copernicus, Michelangelo, and even Leonardo (since the AI doesn't emphasize that WOTW. And since you can even continue producing a WOTW after it has been built, you can get some of the expensive WOTWs in one turn, like Magellan, Women's Suffrage or Hoover Dam, by keeping someone producing Eiffel Tower long after it's been finished! :crazyeye:
 
I've added a new thread which explains basic jargon and terms, esp. for those that are not GOTM-ers yet. It is located here.



maybe I can step into his very large shoes and help you out.
LOL, well, size 10. But anyone can feel free to hop in and explain stuff, even if it looks like it might be slanted in my direction... no offense taken here for jumping in! The more the better!

With the new Civ 2 posters were getting now (yeah!!), I figured it's time to make a place to put all our jargon and acronyms, so now we have that link above and newer folks can have a look for reference and decoding the alphabet soup.

:)

BTW, Lest I mislead some people, I'm not advocating that everyone go out and start disbanding cities.... in general, if you don't have a reason to do it, then I'd say follow LordValuna's recommendation & play it as it lies. I just wanted to let people know that there are other strategies too.

One more thing. The way I personally kill a city is not by starving it. I make setters/engineers. With Pyramids, it can be sort of tricky to kill off a city, but I do it by supporting extra Engineers till the last moment, and let them eat that food... which in turn saves food in some other city. And with the power of the IPRB/IRB, it is just a matter of 25g per row of shields to by the city ino oblivian. And you get useful engineers in the process!

:)
 
Huts -- I probably pop too many too soon, but there are some caveats -- huts on grass or plains could be advanced tribes, huts on other terrains could be a NON Settler. With a two move piece, I’ll try to pop the hut on the first move in open terrain, saving the second move for reaction if need be. On rough terrain it usually doesn’t matter.

Very early in the game, I’ll pop what I can see (there is a tech space available en route to monarchy) nearby looking for more searchers. Also early in the game, a new Barb comes out alone -- so if I popped the hut on open terrain on the first move, my horse has a chance at veteran status, and if on rough terrain, a possible similar result. Once two or more barbs start arriving, I may have hesitations -- location then becomes a factor.

A second reason to pop huts farther away early to mid game is the increased chance of NON units & the awareness of neighbors. For example at the start, a nearby popped hut that gives a NON unit tells me that I have a very close neighbor -- which could affect production and development decisions.
 
The way I look at this, whatever I findz, I keepz. As soon as I find the hut, I pop in for a look-see. I don't care if barbs come out, as chances are my unit will survive with little or no damage (probably has something to do with the fact I build Barracks first and foremost, before any unit). Even if the unit dies, I have little to worry about as I always have a unit back at the cities to defend agains the attack that never arrives. The barbs always seem to disband if the unit that uncovered them is killed, or leaves. I once got a Horseman out by boat after uncovering a bunch of barbs. He was a Vet anyway, so I didn't lose out on promoting him. All 5 of them disbanded after his great escape. Plus, why leave the hut alone when discovered? If an opposing civ gets to it before you do, it's lost. Gone. A possible tech advance or a "friendly tribe of skilled mercenaries" or a "band of wandering nomads" lost. So yes, finders keepers, and I ain't losin' and weepin', 'cos I always grab them. What IS annoying is when I scout around with my boats, thinking it has a unit inside. I find a hut thinking ah, I can get that with my unit, then find I can't 'cause I got a free city earlier and fortified it with said unit. Damn.
 
Looks like I'm asking a foolish question about science penalty from "scrolls of ancient wisdom", because nobody addressed this yet. Is there no such thing? Or is early game despotism & hut popping preferable to getting monarchy ASAP?
 
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