Does it make sense to have Ind. Revolution and Factories in a game without consumer goods?

[historix69]

amenities system itself is very strange. why only 4 cities can enjoy a particular luxury? it has no sense.
and how population size is connected with consumer goods? reality is, poor countries are more populated and grow faster.

You are right ... in real world, amenities do not limit city growth but rather direct streams of immigration.
However even cities in 3rd world countries usually have access to cheap consumergoods from international trade, cheap food, water, electricity, TV, cell phones, internet ... (civil war areas excluded.)
People living today in average (worldwide) have 10-20 times more spending power than people living 200 years ago. Increase in spending power can be seen as increase in wealth and amenities.

 

[PeterChu]

Industrial output of a modern city with factories and powerplants in the game should be 10-100 times greater than that of a medieval city. Production per factory worker should be greatly increased.

And the future are automated factories (robots) which require only a small number of specialised human workers but have a huge output.

In a Civ game tailored to the idea of 'quick digital board game', that is not necessary, or even not good. Just some simple numbers added is good enough to push players to make 'interesting decisions' (meaning: inconsequential decisions, if you look from the perspective of historical simulation). CIv 6 in itself seems not a game based on historical simulation, but a game based on a simulation of Civ game.

 

[historix69]

In Civ1 the city production received +100% to +200% bonus with railroad, factories, power plants, manufacturing plants. The relative effects for a big city in Civ6 are much smaller, but a small city next to a big city with factory and powerplant receives a huge bonus, e.g. +5 production from trade route and +7 production from factory and power plant = +12 free production.
Civ1 was a game for building big cities due to %-boni for all buildings, Civ6 is a game to rather build many small cities since there is no benefit from a big city but from many flat boni.

 

[Arent11]

Industrial output of a modern city with factories and powerplants in the game should be 10-100 times greater than that of a medieval city. Production per factory worker should be greatly increased.

Well, I mean you have to balance it in game. The problem is that historically, industrialization was hugely "unbalancing". It completely changed the "game", population numbers became less important, mass produced armies of even small countries could dominate the world.
Translating that to a game you would have to balance it somehow. The best way would be to make industrialization require huge amounts of reseach or even to split it into several smaller techs that provide the effects separately (+1 production to mines, strong factories, railroads etc.).

 

[historix69]

In a Game making Industrialization strong means that it becomes a must-have for every civ and takes away the freedom of choice. However in real life Industrialization and Globalization meant that all kinds of consumer goods (including military equipment) became available on the world market for rather low prices and so other countries could specialize in different areas like financial products (banking), resources (oil), tourism, etc. to have an income which could be used to buy industrial goods. Mass production of goods means that you also need to sell enormous quantities of goods.

I think it should be a must-have to be one of the first civs which research and implement industrialisation, but when you miss this target, in an industrialised world with global market, industrialization should become less important since you should be able to buy everything you need. When you prepare for a world war and need masses of military units, resources and factories are still important.

 

[Arent11]

In a Game making Industrialization strong means that it becomes a must-have for every civ and takes away the freedom of choice. However in real life Industrialization and Globalization meant that all kinds of consumer goods (including military equipment) became available on the world market for rather low prices and so other countries could specialize in different areas like financial products (banking), resources (oil), tourism, etc. to have an income which could be used to buy industrial goods. Mass production of goods means that you also need to sell enormous quantities of goods.

I think it should be a must-have to be one of the first civs which research and implement industrialisation, but when you miss this target, in an industrialised world with global market, industrialization should become less important since you should be able to buy everything you need. When you prepare for a world war and need masses of military units, resources and factories are still important.

If I could decide it I would probably:

(1) take away production increases from early techs (apprenticeship) & make industrialization the first tech that raises mine output
(2) spread the districts more throughout the game & make industrial districts come with industrialization
(3) have factories as first building of industrial districts & coal & atomic plants in later stages, bascially having 3 buildings that all provide area effect

 

[historix69]

If I could decide it I would probably:

(1) take away production increases from early techs (apprenticeship) & make industrialization the first tech that raises mine output
(2) spread the districts more throughout the game & make industrial districts come with industrialization
(3) have factories as first building of industrial districts & coal & atomic plants in later stages, bascially having 3 buildings that all provide area effect

The medieval workshop would then be a production specific city centre building, much like a watermill. (For cities founded not next to a river, a windmill or a comparable mill powered by animals is still missing.)

The wide production of Great Engineer Points usually starts with Indsutrial District in medieval. Delaying the district means to rework the Great Engineers.

 

[killmeplease]

water mill: +2 production, -1 gold, requires engineering, river
animal mill: +2 production, -1 food, requires engineering, improved cattle or horse
wind mill: +2 production (+3 in hills or coast), -2 gold, requires machinery
all three are mutually exclusive, +1 GE pts?

 

[historix69]

All these ancient power supplies can be used to increase production and to haul water from a well to irrigate farmland, so they should have a bonus effect on food production on some terrain, but maybe not on Grasland or Tundra. They could also be used to allow working swamp tiles by draining the water.

Spoiler :

 

[killmeplease]

All these ancient power supplies can be used to increase production and to haul water from a well to irrigate farmland, so they should have a bonus effect on food production on some terrain, but maybe not on Grasland or Tundra. They could also be used to allow working swamp tiles by draining the water.

they served as a source of power for any crude work -- grinding grain, pumping water, crushing ore, fulling wool etc

 

[historix69]

When placed next to a river in appropriate climate the watermill should have the highest benefit.
The windmill depends on wind which is usually less regularly blowing than water is flowing in a major river.
Placing the watermill in cold climate limits the effect through to freezing in wintertime, placing it in hot, dry climate limits it during a drought in summertime.
The same probably applies to the animal mill.

 

[Scaramanga]

Are we talking consumer goods like blue jeans, cosmetics, and toys? Because they're all in the game.

 

[UWHabs]

When placed next to a river in appropriate climate the watermill should have the highest benefit.
The windmill depends on wind which is usually less regularly blowing than water is flowing in a major river.
Placing the watermill in cold climate limits the effect through to freezing in wintertime, placing it in hot, dry climate limits it during a drought in summertime.
The same probably applies to the animal mill.

They could change it to throw the watermill/workshop to being tile improvements like in some previous games. Then the theory would be that later in the game, you'd be replacing those workshops/watermills with a full industrial zone to get the full production benefit.

 

[killmeplease]

When placed next to a river in appropriate climate the watermill should have the highest benefit.
The windmill depends on wind which is usually less regularly blowing than water is flowing in a major river.
Placing the watermill in cold climate limits the effect through to freezing in wintertime, placing it in hot, dry climate limits it during a drought in summertime.
The same probably applies to the animal mill.

for a water mill the flow speed and the height gradient are the two most important things. so maybe the watermill's bonus should increase in hills and next to a mountain (up to 4 production?) It also can be restricted to non-tundra, non-desert tiles.

 

[historix69]

Are we talking consumer goods like blue jeans, cosmetics, and toys? Because they're all in the game.

In general : yes and no.
The problem with luxuries in Civ 6 is that they only give 1 amenity and usually only to 4 cities, so in a wide game with hundreds of cities, there must be other sources of amenities, e.g. the mass production of consumer goods by industrialized cities with factories. You can mod luxuries to give amenities to all cities, but then the happiness game might be too easy.

 

[bonafide11]

I would go further and say that due to the way production scales in Civ VI, the very concept of an Industrial Revolution having taken place in the game is ludicrous.

Production costs for everything in the late game are astronomical, and while some of this is somewhat reduced by IZs and Factories (although these districts are not generally considered priorities), Chopping, and other bonuses, you're still faced with the fact that building a functional district or mobilising a late game army will set you back dozens of turns. This is in contrast with the early game when the same things can be built much quicker. Production costs in real terms are significantly increased in the "Industrial" and later eras.

The relative abundance of gold strongly favours building your army in the ancient era, where it is comparatively speedy, and then upgrading them for a handful of gold. There is absolutely no attempt to simulate the historical mass industrialisation of warfare. It's a complete rejection of historical simulation which I'm not convinced is justified by the game mechanic, which isn't particularly fun either.

Overall I think this is pretty spot on. In Civ IV, when you first get factories, it's a game changer, as it should be. Civ VI it's negligible. I honestly can't remember how it is in Civ V, but I think it's probably somewhere between the two.

You might need a couple factories for some of the major projects, but it doesn't make a significant difference. There just is no industrial revolution in the game. Just a slow increase in production that is balanced with the scaling cost of buildings and units. There is just no "revolution". It's a bit of just the way the game balance is set up unfortunately. I don't see this getting fixed in this version of Civ.

 

[killmeplease]

factory bonus, cost
civ1 +50% 200
civ2 +50% 200
civ3 +50% 240
civ4 +25% 250
civ5 4+10% 360
civ6 3 390/n

 

[Arent11]

There just is no industrial revolution in the game. Just a slow increase in production that is balanced with the scaling cost of buildings and units. There is just no "revolution". It's a bit of just the way the game balance is set up unfortunately. I don't see this getting fixed in this version of Civ.

To be honest, there was. In the beginning, all factories stacked, which was an "industrial revolution". However, since people started to build many small cities close together, to get maximum numbers of factories, they removed that & had only one factory (except when you use Magnus). So, basically, in the beginning it was too strong & now it is too weak.

 

[historix69]

The players adapt their strategies to game rules to maximize output and minimize costs :
%-bonus : few big cities
flat bonus : many small cities

I think instead of limiting the area effect, they should have tweaked the production costs for late game items and factory upkeep. People loved the stacking of factories. It was fun. Removing fun elements from a game is always a bad idea.

 

[killmeplease]

i didn't like stacking factories. ics ruins the game.
if the goal is to help production-weak cities, they should make some production transfer mechanism (same for food)
possibly with a trader and a city project, e.g. if you send a trader to a city which is producing "building materials", the source city gets additional production