Dutch game: Getting spices with forts

[Mxzs]

I tried playing the Dutch (AD 600 start) last night. I met the "settle Australia" and "have most revealed map" Historical conditions easily, and I also secured 7 spices. There's no doubt I had them: the foreign relations screen said I had 6 surplus spices, and when opening up diplomacy, it told me I had 7 spices available for trade. But when 1775 rolled around, the game said I had failed to meet that last condition and denied me a Historical Victory.

Now, 3 of those spices I had secured by building forts and roads on spice resources within my cultural borders, that being the only way to get them in this particular game. (Long story, don't ask, though it does involve Isabella getting her ears pinned back in a mildly amusing fashion.) But it seems the game doesn't count spices-secured-with-forts as legitimate resources. I checked this by going into the world builder, deleting those forts, and grabbing two rival cities that had 3 spices between them. Once I had 7 plantations (rather than 4 plantations and 3 forts), the game credited me with a win.

Is this a deliberate choice on the part of the mod, to make spices-secured-with-forts not count? Is it a technical artifact of how the game "counts" secured spice resources? Or is something else going on? And has this happened to anyone else?

 

[The Everard]

You cant secure any resources with forts in RFC or the normal game. Did you build forts because they werent in your borders? I really dont understand why you didnt build plantations in anycase.

 

[Squirrelloid]

You cant secure any resources with forts in RFC or the normal game. Did you build forts because they werent in your borders? I really dont understand why you didnt build plantations in anycase.

In BTS forts within your borders secure resources. The reason to do this is that they're more defensible and if they're not in a city's fat cross, you don't care about the enhanced production from developing the land with a plantation. Even BTS RFC has forts securing resources. The question is - does the UHV know to check this. Now, as i recall, the dutch can acquire the spices in *trade*, so forts really shouldn't be an issue, even in checking... but what do i know.

 

[simakis]

Well if i remember correctly even if its not worked on it will count as long as its inside your cultural borders connected with roads to be sure.

 

[Zhuge_Liang]

????????????????????????As I know, you need 2 build plantationz????????????????????????

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I don't think you need to build plantations or forts. I plopped my settler in Papua New Guinea and had a worker ready--well next thing I know I won, because the spices were in my territory, so I "controlled" them.

 

[holy king]

????????????????????????As I know, you need 2 build plantationz????????????????????????

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in beyond the sword U can also build fortz on re-sources within Ur cul-tural borderz to accquire them as IT has already been pointed ouT in this thrEad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mxzs]

AFAIK--and I am probably wrong about this, as I am wrong about so much else--but you can't get a resource that's on an island that hasn't got one of your own cities just by improving that resource with a plantation/mine/farm/etc. So, for instance, you couldn't get that Wine on Crete just by building a Winery on it: you would have to build a city on the island. But, with the improved fort function, you could get it by building a fort and a road on it, so long as it fell within your cultural borders. [Unless there's also a tech you have to acquire before this will work. I'm not sure about that bit.]

So, in the game I've got a question on, there were 3 Spices that were on islands that made building cities either impossible or less optimal than a fort. Which is why I went for the forts. (Believe me, I'd have gone for the plantations if I could have found a way.)

1. A World Congress gave me Singapura, which has a Spice in its fat cross on Sumatra. Instead of building another city on Sumatra, I just built a fort-and-road on the Spice.

2. Cuba consists of a plains, a jungle-with-Spice, and a mountain. You can't build on the latter two, and the former was inside Chichen Itza's cultural borders. So I built a city on the island 2 squares south, threw my border across Cuba's Spice, then built a fort-and-road combo on it.

3. The other Caribbean island with Spice is on a one-square jungle--again, an impossible city build. So I built a city on the hill-island two squares to the west and again threw a border and a fort-and-road across the target Spice.

Now, as i recall, the dutch can acquire the spices in *trade*, so forts really shouldn't be an issue, even in checking... but what do i know.

Well, unless there's some trick I'm unaware of, it's not like trading for seafood after building Sid's Sushi: You can only trade for 1 spice, and then only if you've not yet built your own. At least, I tried trading for more, and only got a red-texted "You're kidding, right?" message, which is what I always get when trying to trade for resources I already have.

 

[Zhuge_Liang]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in beyond the sword U can also build fortz on re-sources within Ur cul-tural borderz to accquire them as IT has already been pointed ouT in this thrEad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

?????????????????Yeah, Ay know it'z pointid out, butt bilding plantationz iz a mutch seckyure wey 2 git da UHV.??????????????????????

 

[Mxzs]

Well if i remember correctly even if its not worked on it will count as long as its inside your cultural borders connected with roads to be sure.

I don't think you need to build plantations or forts. I plopped my settler in Papua New Guinea and had a worker ready--well next thing I know I won, because the spices were in my territory, so I "controlled" them.

I wasn't sure what you guys meant--surely it couldn't be that easy, I muttered to myself--so I tried it last night.

Well now.

So, apparently, the game checks the Spice UHV condition by looking to see if you have a Spice resource within your cultural borders. Apparently, it doesn't even need to be connected with a road, and it certainly doesn't need a plantation or a fort. But the Spice has to be on the same landmass as your city. That's makes the Dutch Historical Victory conditions even easier than I thought they were. That's definitely something that needs noting in any kind of strategy discussion for the Dutch.

Because the game credits Spice received through trade toward your 7 required Spices, I would have figured it would go looking the number of Spices you had available for trade. Huh.

Thanks guys!

 

[LukeUeda-Sarson]

Last time I played the Dutch, I expected to get my 2nd UHV at 1605 AD, but actually got the 3rd as well (control 5 spices), even though, as far as I could see, some of those spice resources where at that time within some of my cities' fat crosses but NOT within their cultural borders... (i.e. they were two squares away and I hadn't had my 1st culture pop yet). So I didn't "control" 5 as far as I could see.

However, in my first Dutch game, I had the same problem as the original poster - I controlled (as in within my cultural boredrs, and either with a plantation of a fort on them) 7 spice resources, but seemingly it didn't count any of those that were on islands seprated from their city for the UHV check - even though the computer said I had 7 according to the resources screen.

So something's a bit screwy. So my advice is plop your cities right on the resource itself to be sure. Given this UHV is about the easiest one going, you can afford to do it.

Cheers, Luke

 

[Gyprsn]

You can't settle on spice resources. They are all in jungle, so unless you get biology early, cut the jungle, then settle, it can't be done that way.

The Spice UHV is actually much easier then it may seem. I, too, thought I had to have plantations on all the spice resources to be counted towards the UHV, to my surprise, however, I got Santo Domingo in a Congress, which gave me my 7th spice, which = victory.

Basically, its very hard not to get the Dutch UHV, unless the AI goes out of its way to stop you (which I haven't encountered). In my Dutch game France had to have declared war on me 4 times from when I started, to the point where I couldn't play anymore because of memory failure. Never even bothered sending units to Amsterdam. Same thing happened when the German's declared war.

 

[Zhuge_Liang]

Yeah, I remember a goal like that like carthage. It has to be on your borders.

 

[Mxzs]

Yeah, the Dutch could stand to have their victory conditions made harder in some way. I am not a good player--it took me a dozen tries to win a Monarch-level HV as Egypt, for instance, and I cannot get the Chinese one. But in my first game as the Dutch, I not only met the three conditions, I did so while also building roads and plantation/forts on the 7 spices, which is a bit harder than just plopping a city down next to them. (I didn't get credit for the win because I was using forts to get some spices on other land masses.) Winning by 1605--let alone 1778--is not hard.

 

[Zhuge_Liang]

ME TOO. I'M NOT A GOOD PLAYER(as they said in MP, but I defeated them singlehandedly and they kicked me) Not fair just because I defeated them(in CIV 4 MP).

 

[Corm]

After this thread I gave it a blast last night. I tried two different save/methods. One was to settle the plot in S America that gives you 2 spices one was to use the island cities of Jos Van Dyke and Havana to get the other 2 Spice. Note I had 1 spice from Cochin, 1 from Jakarta, 2 from Merauke (east of Jakarta) and 1 from trade with Khmer.

The game where I had settled SA I triggered the UHV, the game where I settled Havana and Jos Van Dyke it didnt trigger.

 

[Mxzs]

After this thread I gave it a blast last night. I tried two different save/methods. One was to settle the plot in S America that gives you 2 spices one was to use the island cities of Jos Van Dyke and Havana to get the other 2 Spice. Note I had 1 spice from Cochin, 1 from Jakarta, 2 from Merauke (east of Jakarta) and 1 from trade with Khmer.

The game where I had settled SA I triggered the UHV, the game where I settled Havana and Jos Van Dyke it didnt trigger.

Jos van Dyke ... Would that be the island two squares west of the one-square island with the Spice on it? I've met the Spice condition with a game that uses Havana, so I'd bet it was JvD that was the problem.

 

[Corm]

Yup that very spot. Its got different names depending on the Civ that founds it.

 

[LukeUeda-Sarson]

I have no great problems with the Dutch UHV being (even really) easy - a range of difficulties is good. Do we want them all to be like Ethiopia? It'd be nice to be advised in-game though which ones are likely to prove easy, and which ones difficult.

Cheers, Luke

PS my bad about settling on them - I thought at least one in the Carribean was like that. But in hindsight it does explain why I didn't bother with the Carribean ones in my last game