Early BTS observations

[madscientist]

Got it loaded yesterday and started several games on marathon speed/huge maps. Here are some comments observations
1) I started on nobel with Sitiing Bull. Folund this too easy and enst game I started at Prince.
2) AI may be stupider at start. Had Victoria next to me for a good long while (I was able to research alphabet) sent a spy and great spy (from GW). Well later than 1000BC she had one warrior in London, was building the pyramids, was teching archery (I found this out from espionage). I declared war on her and send ONE dogsoldier against London. She switched production to a warrior but no in time to take the city. Taking an AI capital, on a hill, with one unit that late in the game?????
3) Espionage is great and adds quite a new twist. You can monitor certain AIs but cannot monitor all of them. Demographic charts ar enow dependent on espionage and you can also get an idea of how much the AIs know about you by an icon near their names.
4) Aesthetics are a fairly expensive tech (close to alphabet) in which the only benefit is to open up three wonders. It will interesting to see where that goes.
5) Contrary to what I heard prerelease, the Great Wall does NOT require any walls to be built but does generate great Spy points.
6) Great Spy: Very interesting GP and could be quite useful. I sent the spy on amssion to Victoria and got an immense number of EPs to use against her but since she was so week they were sort of wasted. One point of confusion, the golden age icon was not grayed out as usual when I have 1 great person and I could have launched into a golden age. Does this mean the first golden age is triggered by one GP?
7) I met Bouduca once and she did not immediately declare war.
8) Abe Lincoln seams to have a chronic migrain and somewhat condescending leading me to think that he may not be right in the head and a bit crazy in the game.
9) William of Orange strikes me as a mouse of a person who should be squashed.
10) DeGaulle seams to be typical French and I have to restrain myself from immediately declaring war!!

Well that's my early observations. Can't wait to get home and actually start a real game.

 

[Random Oracle]

One point of confusion, the golden age icon was not grayed out as usual when I have 1 great person and I could have launched into a golden age. Does this mean the first golden age is triggered by one GP?

Yes. Golden ages are now much boosted because of that and because the GPP rate is boosted by 100% as well as the fact that you can switch civics as if you were spiritual.

 

[madscientist]

Yes. Golden ages are now much boosted because of that and because the GPP rate is boosted by 100% as well as the fact that you can switch civics as if you were spiritual.

WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Charou]

you can also get an idea of how much the AIs know about you by an icon near their names.

I noticed that icon. What sense can you make out of it ?

10) DeGaulle seams to be typical French and I have to restrain myself from immediately declaring war!!

Implying that you like slamming Frenchmen ? ... like a hobby or something ?
Wow...
Am I in trouble ?

 

[madscientist]

I noticed that icon. What sense can you make out of it ?

I think it means that AI can see your demographics just like when you get enough EPs on a certain civ you can see the demographics for them (it's the cheapest first espionage thing you can do)

Implying that you like slamming Frenchmen ? ... like a hobby or something ?
Wow...
Am I in trouble ?

Nope, just after 1.5 years of playing against Napoelan and Louis in this game I have this instant dislike of French AIs, Just a kneejerk reaction.

 

[Charou]

I think it means that AI can see your demographics just like when you get enough EPs on a certain civ you can see the demographics for them (it's the cheapest first espionage thing you can do)

All of them are lit. not so useful.

Nope, just after 1.5 years of playing against Napoelan and Louis in this game I have this instant dislike of French AIs, Just a kneejerk reaction.

I know. Those two are quite cocky and arrogant.
tough to negociate with.
Historically accurate, IMO.
Haven´t met CDG yet, but I trust your judgment

 

[Gozert]

I think he compares De Gaulle to Napoleon and Louis XIV in-game, who aren't usually my favourite neighbours either .

Edit: way too slow

 

[cabert]

I think he compares De Gaulle to Napoleon and Louis XIV in-game, who aren't usually my favourite neighbours either .

although I'm french, I can understand what you think of the in-game Napoleon and Louis XIV.


About the spying system, I don't quite understand what it does.
You get Spying points, that you can use "against" a civ you know, is that it?

 

[madscientist]

OK with demographics. In warloards if I was on Pangea and had 10 AIs I met early I could go to the demographics screen and get graphs about things like power, production, GNP for all the AIs I met. Now the only AIs I can compare to myself usign these graphs are those that I have a certain amount of EPs committed to. If I meet Shaka from the other side of the continent I cannot know his power numbers from the demographics unless I spend ALOT of EPs on him. I think the spy icons by the names indicate that the AIs can see you in their demographics, so they know if you are loading up on the power numbers.

 

[Random Oracle]

The spy icons indicate that you have spent more EPs (espionage points) than your opponent. Btw, I absolutely love being able to see what everyone else is researching when I've spent enough points! Makes getting those techs like Physics which provide benefits to the first to reach them that much easier.

 

[cabert]

The spy icons indicate that you have spent more EPs (espionage points) than your opponent. Btw, I absolutely love being able to see what everyone else is researching when I've spent enough points! Makes getting those techs like Physics which provide benefits to the first to reach them that much easier.

on the other hand, if you spend the commerce into beakers instead of spy points, you get to physics earlier

 

[Random Oracle]

on the other hand, if you spend the commerce into beakers instead of spy points, you get to physics earlier

Well, I'd say the other passive benefits are well worth it -- wouldn't you like to see into the cities of the civ you're about to invade or make everything more costly for your opponent? Of course, issues such as what is a reasonable amont to spend on espionage is something that'll take a while to get worked out.

 

[madscientist]

About the spying system, I don't quite understand what it does.
You get Spying points, that you can use "against" a civ you know, is that it?

Essentially yes. You start with 4 EPs from your capital, just like 8 commerce. These are useless until you meet an AI. Once you do, these EP accumulate against another AI which you access from the spy menu. Say you meet 4, you can either divide the points equally or weight them against one, say Montezuma who is you closest neighbor.

You now need a certain number of EPs to do something to the AI, first 2 passive abilities are see demographics (usually lowest) and see research (usually 3-4 times the amount required fro demographics). Now you have 50 Eps so you can see the demographics of Monty, his power curve compared to you, GNP etc... Mansa Musa on the other side of the continent you know nothing becasue you did not put Eps into him.

Say you get 200 EP versus Monty, you can now see he teching iron working, better send some axes that way!!!

Buld the great wall and you can great spy points towards a great spy with w PHIL leader you can get one easily. Send him to monty's capital and do his great misson giving something like 9000 EPs to use towards Monty. Research alphabet and you can build a spy which can do more nasty things with the EPs (poison water, stel gold, wreck a building in progress, like maybe pyramids). You can toast Monty pretty well without ever sending an axe his way

Now the spy icon next to names means that AI is checking you out and at least has the EPs to see demographics. At least that's the way I figured it out.

 

[tboner23]

I wonder if isolated starts now have a new strategy...

cottage spam, run merchants, ie genereate tons of commerce that you can sink into espionage then simply expand peacefully and totally trash your opponents with dirty, underhanded tricks. Maybe there is now a no-war cultural win possible.

I would like to see someone try out a game where they focus on espionage. I would do it myself, but BtS requires either a new computer, or someone to decide to make a Mac version.

 

[Random Oracle]

I wonder if isolated starts now have a new strategy...

cottage spam, run merchants, ie genereate tons of commerce that you can sink into espionage then simply expand peacefully and totally trash your opponents with dirty, underhanded tricks. Maybe there is now a no-war cultural win possible.

I would like to see someone try out a game where they focus on espionage. I would do it myself, but BtS requires either a new computer, or someone to decide to make a Mac version.

The problem with being isolated is that you can't use espionage until you actually meet someone.

 

[madscientist]

OK, it means you are spending more on EP than your opponent. Makes more sense than what I thought.

 

[uncarved block]

Only played a couple games myself, and those only into the middle game, but here's some first impressions:

-I think you got lucky, madscientist, and ran into a civ that was going for a Cultural victory. Even the more traditionally peaceful AIs, from what I've seen through espionage, keep up on units, and on units other than Archers and Longbowmen.

-Espionage is really handy. Since it's a ratio, you can gain an edge on a neighbor or competitor just by using the "weight" option differently for 10-15 turns, or even throwing all your EPs (and putting them at 100% production) against one AI for two turns. The early warning re: war is great info, and saves you the hassle of moving Spy units around.

-First impression: war got harder, research got easier. With all the extra units, and the Espionage slider diverting (and so ) from some of the AIs, I had little trouble keeping up with less cities than usual. This was on Noble, mind you, but I suspect it will hold true even higher up.

-Military resources seem to be fewer and far between, but that may be a side effect of the "Big and Small" map. If this is true, though, Archery becomes a far more attractive option. But we'll see.

-Fans of AI vs AI war are going to be very, very happy. Have Shaka and Brennus in the current game, and they've declared war on neighbors twice in the first 250 turns. I expect more war in the end game.

-The "Glance" screen for Diplomacy helps me, because it gives the same info in a grid format. YMMV. Having what the AI can research next listed in the Tech Trade screen is also very handy for those of us who haven't memorized the Tech Tree by now

 

[Charou]

By the way, EPs are great too accelerate conquests.
With the nerf on siege units, castle and walls are quite a pain.
Therefore, Sabotage !!!
Or ... revolt city, drop culture defense to 0% for 1 turn, but that is more expensive.

This really accelerated my armies in ennemy territory.
But maybe I got lucky on the dice rolls.

 

[madscientist]

Only played a couple games myself, and those only into the middle game, but here's some first impressions:

-I think you got lucky, madscientist, and ran into a civ that was going for a Cultural victory. Even the more traditionally peaceful AIs, from what I've seen through espionage, keep up on units, and on units other than Archers and Longbowmen.

this is what I thought last night until I read others seeing this in teh BTS forum

-First impression: war got harder, research got easier. With all the extra units, and the Espionage slider diverting (and so ) from some of the AIs, I had little trouble keeping up with less cities than usual. This was on Noble, mind you, but I suspect it will hold true even higher up.

I agree, alphabet was like a bomb, noone was close.

-Fans of AI vs AI war are going to be very, very happy. Have Shaka and Brennus in the current game, and they've declared war on neighbors twice in the first 250 turns. I expect more war in the end game.

I prefer some ruthless diplomatic, non-wars occasionally. Let the fools destroy themselves.
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[tboner23]

The problem with being isolated is that you can't use espionage until you actually meet someone.

Right, you can't use them, but you can generate them right? With that and the apparant lowering of the AI's tech pace, and isolated start can peacefully expand, consolidate, and build defenses, all while generating EPs for when they meet another civ. Then once Caravels come around, or you run into other civs on your landmass you have a whole bunch to immediately start wreaking havoc on your rivals. Also, in order for another civ to stop espionage, don't they have to dedicate points towards whichever civ is spying on them? If so, a lead in EPs upon meeting of a civ would increase your chances of actually doing something to your rivals, because they probably haven't been creating EPs as well as you have. And, you might even have some Great Spies hanging around with nothing to do...