Early BTS observations

[Random Oracle]

Actually, I don't think you start accumulating EPs until you actually meet someone. When you meet a new civ, the EP accumulation towards them starts from 0. I'm not 100% sure though, but it did seem like my palace didn't generate any EPs before meeting someone (normally you get 4 EPs from it).

 

[madscientist]

Right, you can't use them, but you can generate them right? With that and the apparant lowering of the AI's tech pace, and isolated start can peacefully expand, consolidate, and build defenses, all while generating EPs for when they meet another civ. Then once Caravels come around, or you run into other civs on your landmass you have a whole bunch to immediately start wreaking havoc on your rivals. Also, in order for another civ to stop espionage, don't they have to dedicate points towards whichever civ is spying on them? If so, a lead in EPs upon meeting of a civ would increase your chances of actually doing something to your rivals, because they probably haven't been creating EPs as well as you have. And, you might even have some Great Spies hanging around with nothing to do...

Not sure about that. A few of my games it took awhile to meet an AI so ithought since I accumulated 4 Ep/turn I had a bunch to already divy up amongst newly found AIs. Nope. Apparently EPs cannot be saved up, at least the way I have seen it. Makes sense in a way, you can build culture, gold, science not knowing anyone else is out there but how do you justify spying when you don't theoretically know there are other civilizations out there?

 

[LlamaCat]

on the other hand, if you spend the commerce into beakers instead of spy points, you get to physics earlier

I found this to be the case exactly. I was thinking this is why it seems AI tech pace is slower... they do seem to be spending a lot on espionage in the early game. so as a result I am ahead in techs more so than I would be in Warlords, but always behind in espionage. I don't know, something is preventing me from investing more than 10% in the espionage slider, and often I leave it at 0%. I still feel the need to stay ahead in techs and have yet to feel like I really need more espionage.

 

[Welnic]

The espionage slider doesn't appear until you meet someone. I don't think that the espionage from the capital happens either.

 

[InFlux5]

Right, when you meet a new civ you both start with 0 EPs toward each other. But this quote makes little sense to me:

The problem with being isolated is that you can't use espionage until you actually meet someone.

Well, obviously you can't do anything involving another civ until you meet someone. So any isolated strategy is going to be subject to this caveat. But I don't see espionage being more or less suited to an isolated start than any other strategy.

Basically, if you have a lot of commerce then espionage could be a viable strat. You can't begin accumulating EPs until you meet someone, but you can accumulate gold, which will then later be turned into EPs.

Of course, accumulating gold means you aren't accumulating research, which is a problem given that isolated starts tend to be weak on research. Still, if you build up a solid economy in the run-up to Optics, you could set yourself up to be able to flip your sliders and begin wreaking havoc on over-seas opponents.

Just throwing out some ideas. I haven't had a chance to test much yet.

 

[colony]

One of the biggest differences I've noticed is that you no longer have to nearly completely destroy an AI to force them to capituate, and they seem to take the power rating more into account than in Warlords. Even in the Middle Ages they seem to become willing to offer a lot sooner than before.

The AI stacks are far bigger now after the end of the Medieval era than they were before. Seeing 26 Protective Rifles (Saladin on Monarch, so I dread to think what Shaka on Emperor's like now ) in one stack heading towards me was nice in a slightly worrying way.

Spending huge amounts on espionage isn't really necessary, keeping up with the AIs that could be a threat looks like it works ok, but some AIs, particularly the Aggressive ones (I noticed Ragnar and Boudica do at least), seem to spend a lot of gold on it really early on, slowing their tech speed down a lot.

 

[Random Oracle]

Well, obviously you can't do anything involving another civ until you meet someone. So any isolated strategy is going to be subject to this caveat. But I don't see espionage being more or less suited to an isolated start than any other strategy.

Basically, if you have a lot of commerce then espionage could be a viable strat. You can't begin accumulating EPs until you meet someone, but you can accumulate gold, which will then later be turned into EPs.

Consider that buildings that normally produce espionage points (palace, courthouse, etc.) don't actually do this until you meet someone (AFAIK). Accumulating gold and then turning it into EPs by running at a deficit is possible I suppose, but a lot more inefficient than getting EPs from other sources as well.

 

[Yeosol]

Anyone thought of this before? I think EP's help with balance in isolated starts. If your alone you don't need to spend any gold on EP's thus alowing you to tech as fast as thouse who can trade? Dose this work out or am I missing something?

 

[cabert]

Anyone thought of this before? I think EP's help with balance in isolated starts. If your alone you don't need to spend any gold on EP's thus alowing you to tech as fast as thouse who can trade? Dose this work out or am I missing something?

sounds right (mind you, I don't have BtS yet!)
but if there are 4 or 5 AIs trading happily, they could divert 60% of their commerce to EP and still be ahead of you.

 

[Martinus]

I think Aesthetics also opens to Literacy, which lets you build the best World Wonder in the game, Great Library, so it is always very high on my priority list (especially as I usually play SE).

 

[uncarved block]

Ah, cabert, that's where the other changes come into effect. Unless you get really unlucky, one of those 4 or 5 civs will be aggressive, and now those AIs will declare war sooner or later-- and all the rest of the inhabitants will still build up a big military, just in case. (Of course, the aggressive civ may have vassalized a couple neighbors by then too, but that hasn't happened in one of my games to date.) The other change I've noticed is that the AI will REX like crazy- even worse than before- which means their early research rates really stink. May not make a huge difference on Monarch and up, but it's very notable so far on Noble.

Hope you get the game soon-- BtS is two steps better than Warlords was, and I thought that was a nice expansion.

 

[Dirk1302]

I think Aesthetics also opens to Literacy, which lets you build the best World Wonder in the game, Great Library, so it is always very high on my priority list (especially as I usually play SE).

I'm also a big admirer of the great library. Essentially since you need alpha anyway it costs you a tech as expensive as alpha to get there compared to the old situation. Of course Aesthetics'll have big trading value since i don't imagine AIs will go for it anytime soon but still you could have been researching monarchy or COL in this time , both are very important.

I think i'll give this path a rest unless i have marble. Since literature isn't behind alpha anymore researching alpha has been nerfed to some extent too and i'm certain to try early monarchy paths in some circumstances more now.

 

[futurehermit]

7) I met Bouduca once and she did not immediately declare war.

This made my day thanks!

 

[Indibil]

Saving a Great Spy to infiltrate a Civ when going to war against them is great. Instant intel, seeing which cities have buildings&wonders which make them worth keeping and the ability to steal a tech or two with regular spies as the costs lower a lot and the chances of success skyrocket