Early Golden Age Vs. Late Golden Age

[RainyCloud]

I've read lots posts here and see most people believe a golden age triggered at around medieval era is the best. At first, I thought so too, but now I have a second option - we should not measure the GA bonus in absolute quantities. Of course, when you have 20 cities, a GA would provide much more income/production bonus than when you have 5 cities, but how is that bonus related to your TOTAL production output? I say we should measure it in one standard: the turns your GA saved you.

Civ3 is a turn based game, thus most actions take multiple turns to complete. In the early age, your production is so low that the turns seem fly so fast that you can hardly notice you spent 10 turns to build a settler. If you could somehow trigger your golden age at this time, you could easily get 30-50% bonus to your TOTAL food/production/commerce output. Those bonus are HUGE if you can realize it. For the 20 turns within GA, it could at least save you 5-10 turns to complete a few settlers, or build a granary to grow. This will result in every new city get founded a few turns earlier, and the cities they later found a few turns earlier. See the snowball effect? Later on when you have 20 cities on hand, this is no longer the situation, as 1 more food/production/commerce per square can only be described as "Nice bonus" instead of "Critical".

One more thing to note is that at the beginning, your surrounding terrains are less likely to be fully developed by worker, and the GA bonus will be relatively much higher than when you cities are working on fully developed zones. If your undeveloped land give you 1 shield and 1 commerce, add GA you get a 100% increase in both shield and commerce; if that land has road and a mine, GA only give a 50% increase for both.

So, should we consider an earlier GA?

 

[Lynx]

since i make enormous amounts of money at all times except the begenning, i try to get it ASAP, but im building wonders to get them.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

I try to avoid early GA's, especially due to the limits in despotism. However, if I'm building wonders that will trigger a Golden Age at a time I don't want it, but definately want the wonders, I'll accept the early GA. A GA in the Middle Ages is what I prefer, since by that time I can get out of Despotism, and that's when many of the wonders I like come up, like Sun Tzu, Leonardo, etc. Generally, I also play as the Chinese, so the UU-triggered GA is at the appropriate time.

If you take into account the bonuses you get from a good starting location and compare them to those of an early GA on the same starting position, it would still end up the same shield production, basicly, due to the limits of despotism.

Generally, you don't really need enormous amounts of cash in the beginning... under despotism, the only way to rush is with the whip. The only reason you might want money would be to catch up in tech, but generally you wouldn't end up too far behind, and the techs don't cost too much anyway.

Well, anyway, that's jus my opinion.

 

[Lynx]

If you know how to use despotism well, you can easily make 200 per turn even without golden age.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

I'm sure you can, but definately not at the beginning of the game. Later, yes, but not when you have 2-3 cities.

 

[Lynx]

It usually happens around 2000 BC, i got at least 20 cities by then, so its easy.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I like to have lots of cities before I trigger a GA. I try to plan it out so that it happens when I have a sizeable empire (15+ cities). I think that 20 cities by 2000 B.C. is pretty impressive, though.

 

[RainyCloud]

Originally posted by DiamondzAndGunz
I try to avoid early GA's, especially due to the limits in despotism. However, if I'm building wonders that will trigger a Golden Age at a time I don't want it, but definately want the wonders, I'll accept the early GA. A GA in the Middle Ages is what I prefer, since by that time I can get out of Despotism, and that's when many of the wonders I like come up, like Sun Tzu, Leonardo, etc. Generally, I also play as the Chinese, so the UU-triggered GA is at the appropriate time.

Yeah, exactly what I used to believe. However, if you can utilize the early GA bonus very well, then the "snow ball" effect might result you to be a lot of less depended on a mid age GA to produce the good wonders, not to mention you will be left with a better economy after producing those wonders.

If you take into account the bonuses you get from a good starting location and compare them to those of an early GA on the same starting position, it would still end up the same shield production, basicly, due to the limits of despotism.

That's true... I'd say if you have a few cows and a river and tons of bonus grass land as start position, the early GA could be less effective. But that's pretty hard to come by. Even then, before those land are well developed, the GA still give you a larger bonus compared to a fully developed country side.

May be we can research this down to exact numbers? I'll do it later on if I have time.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Well, I generally have a good time in my early game, so I don't really require the extra boost a GA might give. But on higher difficulties, then, perhaps it would help out a lot more, since the early game could probably be more important, and tougher to get ahead in.

Generally, if you start out on grasslands, you will most likely get several bonus grasslands, which will be worked first by citizens. If they are unmined, you will get the shield bonus, but no food bonus. if you start out on plains, then you might get a substantional bonus, in which case a GA would be nice. If you have an even worse starting location, you have more urgent things to worry about then when the GA is going to occur .

And I'd rather not do any number crunching... it's supposed to be my time away from school and schoolwork and such... But I'd be happy to look at any calculations you might do...

Anway, I guess it all comes down to wether you need the extra bonuses to boost your early game and expansion, or whether you need it to churn out knights ( or riders in my case ) and wonders.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by Lynx
It usually happens around 2000 BC, i got at least 20 cities by then, so its easy.

You have to be exaggerating at least a little here, or using some sort of mod or cheat, or got like 3 settlers from goody huts or something. There is no way you could get 20 cities after you've only played 43 turns. (2030 B.C. is turn 43).

1000 B.C. (80 turns) is much more reasonable. 1500 B.C. might be possible (60 turns) with a fantastic start and a free settler (or two) from a hut.

 

[Lynx]

well...lets just say im a little fast. its more like i have at least the capability to make 20 cities by then (i have the settlers).

 

[Bamspeedy]

Oh, are you using accelerated production? Then it might be possible. Forgot about accelerated production. You should note when using that because most people play standard rules (and thinking standard rules when they read tips and strategies).

 

[Lynx]

no, i dont use accelerated production, its kinda supid to have anyway.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Well, I sure would love to see a saved game then of where you got 20 cities (or settlers) by 2000 B.C. Building a settler every other turn (on average!) that early in the game just seems to defy all logic if using normal (unedited) Civ3 rules.

 

[Lynx]

well, im the type to defy logic and I enjoy doing it.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I call your bluff, let's see a saved game.

With no granaries, the fastest you can build a settler is every 8 turns. Even if every city was able to build a settler this fast (having the terrain somehow already roaded and improved to do all of this, this quickly) you still wouldn't have nowhere near 20 cities/settlers after only 43 turns. Building a granary will let you build a settler every 4 turns at best, but building the granary takes time and doesn't really pay off until AFTER 2000 B.C.

Unless you've edited the shield cost of settlers down, and/or only have them cost only 1 population point instead of 2, or changed the terrain values, or given yourself free settlers at the start of the game.

 

[Lynx]

like i said, i defy logic...

 

[Lynx]

and just how fast do you go, 'expert'

 

[Tacit_Exit]

Originally posted by Lynx
and just how fast do you go, 'expert'

Last resort of the damned

 

[Oceanus]

I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.