Early war and unit combat

[Hawkster]

Started a new game last night - just expanding nively when Zulu's start bugging me - right time to get rid of them! So just about to kill off the Zulu (one town left somewhere - just need to find it) when Persia attacks me - barstewards! So call off the Zulu wipeout and defend against Persia - after a few rounds we agree peace as we are too evenly matched to inflict much harm on each other (for now.......)

Anyways during this little war one thing I noticed (and hadn't before) was that my horsemen did much better against the Persian immortals than my swordsmen -and when attacking the Zulu - bowmen seemed to be more effective against the Zulu impi in the Zulu towns again better than swordsmen or horsemen.


So the question is - do certain units have a slight advantage over others or is it just dumb luck. If there is a system whereby some units are better against others then has anyone been able to put a list together of the combinations ?

Any comments or am I just hallucinating ....

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

no advantages. but the random numbers are so weird that I also often get strange things

 

[TheNiceOne]

I don't think there are any advantages either. I've seen some claim that pikemen has defensive bonus against horse-mounted units, but I don't beleieve this is true.

So I guess it's a result of the random number generator.

Btw, Killer, the RNG is supposed to be weird according to human perception. That is: I've read about tests where humans were set to generate strings of numbers that should be as random as possible.
All of them created strings that were very balanced and symmetrical and quite far from real random strings. A natural random string normally looks weirder than we expect.

Btw, for the first time I have (almost) had the famous tank vs spearman syndrome happen to me. I say almost because it was an Impi, but the veteran unfortified impi on plains defeated my attacking veteran (full HP) tank. And no, I don't think that sucks at all.

 

[D9phoenix]

I have had a conscript spear defeat a veteran tank. The spear was in a grassland city size 3 with a wall.. my jaw dropped when it happend.

As for Hawksters question, maybe its just me.. But i have noticed that certain units tend to win more in certain situations. The biggest factor for me in combat seems to be the terrain and the RNG only plays a small part in it. Though most of this is from Killers mod. Where the HP's have been correctly (imo) adjusted.

 

[thomson_2001]

I found that egyptian war chariots could easily kill off swordsmen (cariot att of 2 against sword def of 2) whereas longbowmen (att of 4) were either badly injured or lost a lot! I dont know why but i find that mounted units have a bonus against offensive foot soldiers.

 

[murewa]

A Spearman-Ranger group facing a dilemma about stopping an advancing Panzer-tank column:

Spearman Private:
"This is is everything we have. Seventeen iron-tipped spears, eleven pairs of socks. Got the two bazookas but we don't know how to use them. Assorted small stones. We had a, a sixty motor but a huge metal rock fell from the sky and took it out."

Spearman Private:
"Might as well be spitwads if they roll on us with tanks."

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"Which they're sure to do."

Spearman Sergeant Horvath:
"What you thinkin, sir?"

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"Well, I'm thinking they're gonna try to whip around the flanks. Unless we can draw them up this main road here in between the buildings where all the rubble makes a bit of a bottleneck."

Spearman Private Ryan/Damon:
"Disable them?"

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"If we can. Make that tank a sixty ton roadblock, we'll do that. We got a fighting chance on the flanks."

Spearman Corporal Henderson:
"Yes, sir. That's good. Let's split them up. Don't let them mass anywhere."

...
(more discussion about positioning men and blowing up bridge)
...

Spearman Private Reiben:
"Well yeah, it's not the worst idea ever, captain. It's just that everything depends on getting the tank onto this main road for us to know out, right? So how the hell do you plan on doing that?"

Spearman Sergeant Horvath:
"Reiben's right. As our esteemed collegue pointed out, what we got here are a bunch of spitwads. So how do we stop the tank if we get it to commit?"

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"Give it a rabbit to chase. We could hit the tank in the tracks."

Spearman Private Ryan/Damon:
"Yeah, but with what?"

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"Well, we could try a sticky bomb."

Spearman Private Ryan/Damon:
"Sticky bomb, sir?"

Spearman Corporal Henderson:
"Sir, are you makin' that up?"

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"No, it's in the field manual. You check it out if you want to."

Spearman Private Ryan/Damon:
"Well, we seem to be out of field manuals, sir. Perhaps you could enlighten us."

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"All right, well you have some demolition, don't you? Some saltpeter composition B maybe?"

Spearman Private:
"Yeah, that sir, is the one thing we got plenty of. I got that bridge wired with enough speter composition B to blow it up twice."

Spearman Captain Miller/Hanks:
"All right, you can spare some then. You take a standard issue Spearman Army Issue sock, cram it with as much saltpeter comp B as it can hold, rig up a simple fuse. You coat the whole thing with axle grease. And when you throw it, it should stick. A bomb that sticks, it's a sticky bomb. Come up with a better way to knock the tracks off a tank, I'm all ears."

Spearman Private Reiben:
"This is good. Now we gotta surrender our socks."

Spearman Private:
"All the way."

(That's how spearmen generally think.)

Edit: Lengthened it a bit.

 

[D9phoenix]

ROFL.....

 

[thomson_2001]

lol! Im pretty sure by the time you reach late industrial your spearmen actualy represent ******** old men who didnt make it to infantrymen as young lads. C'mon, your entire population drives cars,uses computers and listens to the radio but then you get some stupid ass guys weilding a long piece of wood with a metal tip, wearing a helmet and robes! eh!?

Civ 3 should automatically disband units from the ancient era when you reach industrial or disband medieval units once the modern age is reached. Either that or automatically send the old gits to the nearest barracks for a quick lesson in the use of guns. lol

 

[Masquerouge]

I agree with you, Thomson ! I've read an interview of a CTP programmer who said he liked having obsolete and archaic units in the moder ages because it could be used as cannon fodder...

But I think you should not be allowed to, say, keep bowmen and spearmen in the XXth century ; either you upgrade them, or disband them. This is one of the very few things I don't like about civ (1, 2 and 3, mind me).

The problem is, keeping spearmen is a viable strategy because they CAN win against modern armor, and a stack of 30 bowmen is a pain in the butt...

I said that before, but combat was a LOT better in Call To Power.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by thomson_2001
lol! Im pretty sure by the time you reach late industrial your spearmen actualy represent ******** old men who didnt make it to infantrymen as young lads. C'mon, your entire population drives cars,uses computers and listens to the radio but then you get some stupid ass guys weilding a long piece of wood with a metal tip, wearing a helmet and robes! eh!?

Civ 3 should automatically disband units from the ancient era when you reach industrial or disband medieval units once the modern age is reached. Either that or automatically send the old gits to the nearest barracks for a quick lesson in the use of guns. lol

Ah, but there are spearmen in the 21st century -- the Swiss Guard. And they not only use halbards, but guns, trucks, radios, etc. Meanwhile, there are mounted swordsmen in the Sudan who lop heads and raid villages for slaves.

 

['Copter Pilot]

Ah, but there are spearmen in the 21st century -- the Swiss Guard.

Now that explains why no country ever dared to attack Switzerland.

Dictator: Shall we attack the Swiss, then?
General: No. They've got spearmen. Our tanks would have no chance against them. Let's see if they're interested in some trading instead.

 

[Baleog]

In civ 2 there were such advantages as "pikemen have 100% defence bonus against mounted units". And it wasn't just limited to that.

Howitzer: Ignores effects of city walls.

That's all I can think of. But these weren't brought in to civ 3 to my knowlege.

 

[thomson_2001]

why the hell would you want a bloody halbard when all you need is a decent gun and a knife for short range combat.

Swiss Guardman: Em sir ive spotted some enemy tanks on the East hill! What shall we do sir?!

Swiss comander: em well we do have these very nice shiny halbards...hmmmm let em come closer, i dont like guns anyway - they make me look fat and dont go with my lovely helmet. Off you trot now.


NEWS REPORT: 1000 swiss guards were killed yesterday by 2 enemy tanks and a stray dog. Eyewitnesses say that the halbards badly scratched the paintwork on the tanks and the tank commander is very upset! Stupid swiss.lol

seriously though, those troops are mostly used for ceremonial/historical reasons.

 

[sabo]

Yeah I think the Swiss Army gaurds the Vatican, Since they are spearman it's like what copter pilot said. "No wonder no one has ever attacked Switzerland" and now we know why the Vatican has never been attacked either

 

[sabo]

Those swiss army guys look kinda gay

 

[Polaris]

They look like they should be siging " We are Knights of the Round Table....when we are able...." or some other Monty Python dittie.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

they may look gay, but their suits stem from a time where it was vry important to be recognisable as a friend in battle - or as a foe.... thus the coloured "jumpsuits", designed by non less than Michelangelo!

About the Halbard: a verrrrrrry nasty weapon, a tin opener in Knight size...... cut down the horse, open the Knoights armour, kill him, all in 5 sec..... so don't underestimate them.......

today, that stuff is ceremonial, they have real guns, too

 

[LittleDragon]

Don't knock the Swiss Guard. Imagine having a halberd and being allowed to hit someone with it

If someone has a halberd I usually don't note that they look gay to their face.

 

[Gastric ReFlux]

The thing that you must remember about a Civ3 spearman is that if you see one around the time of tanks, it has very likely been in existence since the year 1000 BC, or has comrades who were. So we're talking about a unit that could have 2500 years of training and combat experience. Also one would expect that in that time they probably have well-organized spearmen guilds.

We're really not talking ordinary spearmen anymore. These are ninja-masters, men who could pick up a dull pencil and wield it as a deadly spear.

 

[Masquerouge]

You're absolutely right, Burpman (AKA as Gastric Reflux)
2,500 is a minimum, suppose you start with bronze working, then in 1,500 AD your spearman would have... close to 5,000 years of training.
I guess in such a long time you can masterize your body pretty well....