Embarrassed to Admit This But...

[Aristos]

Bulbing Great Scientists
The amount of science is the accumulation of the last 8 turns of science you have generated. In my last game I kept all Great Scientists from the 1 I got from the Porcelain Tower to when I wanted to rush to Telecommunications. At the time I bulbed them(3 at that time) I was generating 800 science and it allowed me to steal the CN Tower from China who was several techs ahead of me.

You might argue that creating Academies would be the best approach but I was surrounded by grassland and wanted to focus on growth/culture/science via specialists. sometimes its best to keep your Great Scientists for the opportune moment.

Careful. This is not correct anymore. Amount of beakers for bulbing gets fixed to the amount WHEN the Scientist is born. Saving them for the future will not increase that amount.

Mathematically, you will have to compare the amount of bulbing beakers with the average beaker creation of an academy plus the amplification factors in the city where the academies serve (can take 18 as an average rule of thumb for a well developed Science city, usually the capital), times the number of turns you expect the game to go on (or the tech target for comparison).

 

[Browd]

Sorry, you're in error. Great Scientists still deliver 8 turns worth of beakers based on the turn on which they are bulbed, not the turn on which they are generated.

If you are skeptical, generate a GS (faith buy if you have to), select the GS and mouse hover over the bulb icon. The tooltip will tell you how many beakers you would get if you bulbed the GS on that turn. Instead of bulbing, hit next turn a couple of time and then check the bulb tooltip again => different number of beakers.

 

[cinattra]

Sorry, you're in error. Great Scientists still deliver 8 turns worth of beakers based on the turn on which they are bulbed, not the turn on which they are generated.

If you are skeptical, generate a GS (faith buy if you have to), select the GS and mouse hover over the bulb icon. The tooltip will tell you how many beakers you would get if you bulbed the GS on that turn. Instead of bulbing, hit next turn a couple of time and then check the bulb tooltip again => different number of beakers.

So does that mean the best time to bulb is during golden age???

 

[EK834]

So does that mean the best time to bulb is during golden age???

Golden Ages don't increase the science ouput in Civ 5, just production and culture and add 1 gold per tile producing at least 1 (GA were nerfed with BNW, since so few tiles produce gold anymore...). The most profitable time to bulb them beaker-wise is after the discovery of Plastics and putting up your Research Labs in your science cities. You're in theory close to your peak of science production in the game. Technically they peak on your last turn of the game, since your population keeps increasing, but they're already really strong eight turn after you built the late game's science building.

Some people stop building Academies with them after building public schools, and wait until Plastics to bulb those they get from that point on.

The math is easy, as a previous poster described it. Early on, if you do build all your science buildings, take the right SP that give you % modifiers and boost GP tiles etc. and plant all your GS for Academies as soon as they spawn and around your best science city, the Academies produce more beakers until the end game than bulbing them after Plastics does, thus you gain more techs, and gradually, by planting those than by keeping them to bulb them late game. Your late game spawn or bought GS will also be all the more potent that those Academies can seriously boost your science ouput.

Great Scientists still deliver 8 turns worth of beakers based on the turn on which they are bulbed, not the turn on which they are generated.

For having bulbed one just an hour ago, I confirm this.

What they changed about GS is that they now get scaled properly according to game speed.

 

[beetle]

This thread seems to taken a new direction, so I thought I would chime in with my two bits on the original topic...

I like to play sprawling civ's with a strong military but on Prince this seems hopeless.

I think that all you have to do is build half as many units and twice as many building. A strong military campaign is pretty easy up to king in my experience. You just have to make sure you are using your units. You don’t have to be super efficient or anything, but units are too expensive to just be sitting around looking intimidating. Also, make sure you are mostly puppeting conquered cities, non annexing them.

At some point, you might want to dial it back and try building all the National Wonders. That is hard with more than a handful of cities. After the NW are all done, you should be in good shape to steamroll the other civs. That might be a latter domination victory than you are used to.

 

[kb27787]

on Prince? (basically the AI stops giving you handicaps but they don't get any advantages either) Just make sure your cap is bigger than theirs = insta-win! (ridiculously easy to do as the AI does not get bonus tile yields and will stupidly work market slots)

The only thing you have to do is put all your cities on food focus until t200 and I guarantee that alone will win you the game. Don't bulb your GS until modern era, plant them instead.

Warmongering has been heavily nerfed in BNW and I suggest going for it only if you can already win easily with all the other VCs on that certain difficulty.

 

[Aristos]

Sorry, you're in error. Great Scientists still deliver 8 turns worth of beakers based on the turn on which they are bulbed, not the turn on which they are generated.

If you are skeptical, generate a GS (faith buy if you have to), select the GS and mouse hover over the bulb icon. The tooltip will tell you how many beakers you would get if you bulbed the GS on that turn. Instead of bulbing, hit next turn a couple of time and then check the bulb tooltip again => different number of beakers.

We are talking BNW, right? I am pretty sure it has been changed for BNW, and even remember reading it in the release or some early patch notes... hmmm. I am still pretty sure about it, but will try to re-re-confirm next time I play... are YOU sure?

 

[Browd]

Absolutely sure. Just had one last night spawn shortly after getting research labs. Initially could only bulb for about 6K beakers, but 4-5 turns later it was over 9K.

 

[gsmart04]

Curious here: About how many turns into the game do you wait to launch your second city?

 

[Aristos]

Absolutely sure. Just had one last night spawn shortly after getting research labs. Initially could only bulb for about 6K beakers, but 4-5 turns later it was over 9K.

Well, I be damned... I stand corrected. I don't know where I got this "certainty", but it was wrong. I just tried it. What I did not see clearly is the "8 last turns of science output", the bulbing amount always seemed less than the total science of the last 8 turns...

Good to know anyways.

 

[YourHarry]

Golden Ages don't increase the science ouput in Civ 5, just production and culture and add 1 gold per tile producing at least 1 (GA were nerfed with BNW, since so few tiles produce gold anymore...). The most profitable time to bulb them beaker-wise is after the discovery of Plastics and putting up your Research Labs in your science cities. You're in theory close to your peak of science production in the game. Technically they peak on your last turn of the game, since your population keeps increasing, but they're already really strong eight turn after you built the late game's science building.

Some people stop building Academies with them after building public schools, and wait until Plastics to bulb those they get from that point on.

The math is easy, as a previous poster described it. Early on, if you do build all your science buildings, take the right SP that give you % modifiers and boost GP tiles etc. and plant all your GS for Academies as soon as they spawn and around your best science city, the Academies produce more beakers until the end game than bulbing them after Plastics does, thus you gain more techs, and gradually, by planting those than by keeping them to bulb them late game. Your late game spawn or bought GS will also be all the more potent that those Academies can seriously boost your science ouput.



For having bulbed one just an hour ago, I confirm this.

What they changed about GS is that they now get scaled properly according to game speed.

I usually bulb my GSes. I don't have the math down to prove that I am right, but to me it seems that having the right tech at the right time is crucial.

Bulbing typically saves me 6-7 turns in reaching a particular tech. If the tech that I am trying to reach is, say, Civil Service then I get the benefit of +1 food from all river-adjacent farms for 6-7 additional turns. I would say, typically I am working about 10-12 river side farms by this time. So, bulbing gives me extra 60-82 food over those 6-7 turns, which in turn gives me more base science output and additional production (and some unhappiness). It also allows me to get more culture and faith bonuses from city states. Open border is usually not that important at this time (in my experience), but also allows that option if AI's borders prevented you from scouting previously. Also, importantly, it allows building the key wonder Chichen Itza 6-7 turns faster, which not only allows you to have a better chance at building the wonder, but depending on the timing, it leads to earlier accumulation of GE points as well as possibly 4 additional Golden age turns.

But I USUALLY don't get GS that fast.

But the similar argument applies for other techs. If I can research Observatory that much faster, I can meet city states and civs in other continents faster. Which allows more resource trading and happiness, embassy selling (minor) and city state bonuses and some petty cash. It also allows building the observatory 6-7 turns faster, which allows more accumulation of science.

Same for education. Earlier universities. Earlier research agreement. Earlier chemistry and fertilizer. More population more production more money (also more unhappiness though). More population = more science. More production = faster buildings. More money = well, more of the same.These effects accumulate in exponential manner.

Of course, I don't have the exact math worked out. But at least, I think a case can be made for bulbing GS early in the game.

So it's not the TOTAL amount of science that you get from your GS. It's what the positive feedback looped benefits by acquiring key techs earlier would bring you by the late game - when all these benefits accumulate starting 6-7 turns earlier.

 

[Arcaian]

YourHarry, that is true for certain key techs - Civil Service maybe, Astronomy. Maybe education. But in general the easier rule is plant till at least Public Schools (better to wait for research labs) and then bulb, much less tricky if you're new

 

[greygamer]

I don't think your experience is different to that for many players. The strategies you use at the lower levels may not be successful when you move up a level (the reverse can also be true). Each time I moved up a level (I'm currently playing on Emperor) I found I fell behind on techs. It was so bad I would be a tech era behind by mid-game. Eventually I would find ways to boost my research just enough to win. After that I would usually win comfortably, so I would move up a level and find my skill was still lacking. I had to learn the rest of it.

At King level I learned to take full advantage of Universities and Observatories (specialists) as well as research agreements. Eventually I got to the point where I did not need to take Rationalism just to keep up.

Now at Emperor level I have needed to learn to give population growth a much higher priority, trade routes with the AI also help. But I can get level with the AI even if I delay Education, I doubt that will be the case when I move up to Immortal. I will have to learn to be even smarter with my strategies.

So take heart. Many of us go through the same process, and in my case it took a long time before I figured it out.

• Grow your population quickly
• Scout out good city locations and be prepared to fight for them.
• Be stingy with your units, use them don't loose them - make the AI waste production in wars of attrition.
• Don't be afraid to improvise, there is no perfect build/tech order
• During Golden Ages work gold tiles
• If you have unhappiness switch to production tiles while fixing the problem.
• Use game settings that work for you - raging barbarians or Epic/Marathon speeds are valid options for certain play-styles.

 

[EK834]

Bulbing typically saves me 6-7 turns in reaching a particular tech. If the tech that I am trying to reach is, say, Civil Service then I get the benefit of +1 food from all river-adjacent farms for 6-7 additional turns.

I do this too, but far more rarely, if for instance I'm still much behind the AI and I really, really could make a lot out of grabbing a Wonder and tech before them.

Otherwise, and while I admit the math is a bit beyond me and I go more intuitively for this (and grabbed advice from this site and strategy guides), it seems to me my Academies in my super tall capital with NC are often the key to catching up the AI for good, and thus Wonders and advantages finally become mine. 1 GS = 8 turns saved. 1 Academy is adding 8 raw science to your city permanently. It's like adding 8 citizens for each one (for science), and I often start with three when I get my first GS from University specialist slots + 1 from Porcelain Tower I sometime finish with Pisa's GE. My capital is usually around 25-30 by then, to which I add 16 citizens (science-wise), in the Renaissance. That's a huge boost, which gets multiplied by the NC and University immediately. How long those 6-7 turns you gained by bulbing for CS will take to get you 16 more pop? Later I get the Freedom tenet that add +4 (50%, in effect) to each improvement and those 16 become like 24 extra citizens for science production. I usually end up with 6 Academies, so it's like adding 60 to 72 population for science production... All that multiplied.... Do your 6-7 turns produce as many extra population by the endgame? I don't know. My late game, post RL GS, I often spawn/buy/get from projects/Wonders at least 6, are extremely potent (around 36,000 to 39,000 beakers on Marathon), able to get the first future Tech in one turn (but I typically use them to enter the Information Era in style by buying several techs...)

 

[ante185]

when I play, usually on prince, I always make a b-line for the Great library and while building it I also research calendar so I can use my free tech on philosophy, then I research a tech that would be useful in the position I am in, most likely mining. I tend to lock my capital with wonders all the time and that might not be good considering I usually never found any new cities, and when I do it's most likely a bit further into the game.

 

[greygamer]

when I play, usually on prince, I always make a b-line for the Great library and while building it I also research calendar so I can use my free tech on philosophy, then I research a tech that would be useful in the position I am in, most likely mining. I tend to lock my capital with wonders all the time and that might not be good considering I usually never found any new cities, and when I do it's most likely a bit further into the game.

You can still do that up to King for sure. On Emperor it seems to go around t48-50, still possible but you have to be quick. I have learned to live without getting it for quite a while now.

 

[ilik]

G&K, right?

Okay, so you should basically really pay attention to science. Research Writing and build libraries FAST, and build NC quick too.

Also, start with a scout (unless you're playing large islands), then a Monument. Tradition is generally the best tree to go for, unless you're like playing the Maya or China etc. and should go Liberty due to a UB. Get early granary, and try to go for at least one ancient/classical world wonder. Wonders like Great Library are gonna be hard unless you have mining, a worker, and a of forests nearby. Trade luxury resources for flat gold, and use that gold mainly to buy science buildings. Make sure military production doesn't screw up your growth, and get your settler at least in production by turn 40 or so. Use most land for farms-not trading posts. Put trading posts on spare jungle that you haven't cut only, and if your city has large growth. Make sure to get an early shrine to get your pantheon, and don't over focus on military. Make sure to have plenty of scientists for GSes, because academy is really useful.

And maybe try another victory type for a change. And don't forget you can raze cities to save happiness.

 

[Sayjimwoo]

If you are struggling to get a good foothold, watch this short video. It has some of the basics and does work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UbRjh5ufoA

 

[gsmart04]

G&K, right?

Okay, so you should basically really pay attention to science. Research Writing and build libraries FAST, and build NC quick too.

Also, start with a scout (unless you're playing large islands), then a Monument. Tradition is generally the best tree to go for, unless you're like playing the Maya or China etc. and should go Liberty due to a UB. Get early granary, and try to go for at least one ancient/classical world wonder. Wonders like Great Library are gonna be hard unless you have mining, a worker, and a of forests nearby. Trade luxury resources for flat gold, and use that gold mainly to buy science buildings. Make sure military production doesn't screw up your growth, and get your settler at least in production by turn 40 or so. Use most land for farms-not trading posts. Put trading posts on spare jungle that you haven't cut only, and if your city has large growth. Make sure to get an early shrine to get your pantheon, and don't over focus on military. Make sure to have plenty of scientists for GSes, because academy is really useful.

And maybe try another victory type for a change. And don't forget you can raze cities to save happiness.

If you are struggling to get a good foothold, watch this short video. It has some of the basics and does work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UbRjh5ufoA

Thanks, Ilik. I have tended to build military units too quickly and roads prematurely.

Sayjimwoo: Very interesting video! I'm never ahead on points by turn 100.

 

[Segwin]

Seven civs on a Huge TSL Earth map with no CSs and Domination as the only VC is not a recommended setup. Might seem luxurious to have all that empty space, but as you are finding, neither you nor the AI have the resources to sop up all that space, so the barbs are multiplying (N. Africa is nearly carpeted with barbs).

It's turn 122 and you only have 4 cities (capital - 6 pop and 3 expos with 3, 3 and 1 pop), despite taking Liberty. A big part of the problem is that you only have 2 unique luxuries to support those cities, and you have no duplicates to sell to raise your gpt (gold mine coming on line in 2 turns in Hispania will help a bit).

You shouldn't build roads until the population of the smaller city equals or exceeds the number of road segments. Given how small your expos are, you are paying 7 gpt in maintenance and only generating 4 gpt in trade route income. Markets will help a bit, but will take a long time to get built.

You really don't need the Great Lighthouse -- too many hammers and all of the civs you need to kill are located on the Eurasian landmass, except Japan.

Each of your cities needs a granary. Given the number of farmed river-side hills, the farms can't contribute to growth until you get Civil Service, which is a long, long way off at your current tech rate -- you only have a library in your capital and no National College (Philosophy is 30+ turns away, assuming you chose to focus on it after finishing Currency). Granary will generate +2 food by themselves and +1 food for every camp -- and there is a fair amount of deer on this map.

On religion, I don't understand why you built a shrine in Alexandria, after settling next to Mt. Sinai, and then aren't working the Sinai tile. Also, instead of taking Ceremonial Burial, you should have taken a gold-giving founder belief, like Church Property (Tithe would be wasted here, given how sluggishly the AI will grow its cities). You also need to spread your religion to your other cities. Those happiness beliefs are wasted if you don't spread. Also, 2 of your cities can't build gardens, so they won't benefit from Peace Gardens (might try to build Hanging Gardens in one of those cities, but they are too small right now to finish HG before about turn 180.

Wow... As one that is just starting out I'm left a little speechless. I'd ask how you learned this stuff but already know the answer -time.

Good stuff.