Enhanced Achievement System (Golden Years) [ACCEPTED]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I know we have a lot of topics on the list already.
But I thought I could suggest another one of my old concepts.

Currently the Achievement System is quite boring.
Yes, it triggers beautiful immersive images with nice flavour texts, but that is it.
(There is absolutely no gameplay effect.)

It could however become much more:
"Enhanced Achievement System that triggers Golden Years"

Game Concept:

Achievements could grant "Achievement Points", the player can collect.
If you have assembled enough "Achievement Points", then "Golden Years" could be triggered.

The "Golden Years" could e.g. last 5 just turns and give additional +10% Production Bonus.
It could e.g. also cause a flat +2 for "Happiness" while the "Golden Years" last.

Every "Golden Years" would of course also require increasing "Achievement Points".
(1st "Golden Years": 50 "Achievement Points"; 2nd "Golden Years": 75 "Achievement Points"; ... )

And of course every time "Golden Years" trigger, the required "Achievement Points" are substracted.
(Displaying the current amount of "Achievement Points" on Main Screen would be a piece of cake.)

To spice this up, we could make "Achievements" a small competition.
(e.g. only the first Nation to get it, would get 100% "Achievement Points", the others only 50% "Achievement Points".)

Other Aspects:

• Of course balancing values in GameSpeedInfos.xml and HandicapInfos.xml.
  
• Achievement Points of each Achievement in AchievementInfos.xml
• Entries in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml for balancing the configuration (base value and) increase for each "Golden Years".
• Maybe a new "Achievement Screen" in Colopedia to list all possible Achievements

Effort:

Implementing the base functionality for this is relatively easy.
Creating graphics, configuring and balancing Achievement is effort though.
The "Achievement Screen" (not the one ingame we already have but for listing all of the possible ones in Colopedia) would also require additional effort.

Summary:

We could get a new small strategical component for "Achievement Hunting" to trigger Golden Years.
Since it would only last 5 turns and only give 10% Production Bonus, it would not break balance though.

------

Feedback?

By the way, this is definitely not "high priority". This is just a "nice to have".

But if team and community like it, I would implement it - once the more important stuff is done.
(But of course I would need help creating "Achievemet Graphics".)

 

[raystuttgart]

By the way:

Achievements are not a Vanilla feature.
They were created by Dale and snoopy369 (for Patch Mod).

Patch Mod was later integrated into TAC - together with many other mods e.g. from Netbandit.
(TAC is itself the mother mod of RaR and thus grandmother mod of WTP.)

Spoiler :

Dale, snoopy369, Netbandit, Ekmek, TC01, koma13, cephalo ... were some of the absolutely first pioneers of modding for Civ4Col.
True legends that sadly hardly anybody remembers anymore ... but their work and heritage still lives.

 

[Schmiddie]

Creating graphics, configuring and balancing Achievement is effort though.

About what graphics do we talk about? What do you have in mind?

 

[raystuttgart]

About what graphics do we talk about? What do you have in mind?

Nothing specific yet.
(Because I have not yet thought about the specific Achievements we might want to add.)

Basically it is still just 2D images for new Achievements.
(Just like now.)

If we would "enhance" Achievement System to Triggger "Golden Years", we might also create new ones.
(That would of course also need graphics.)

The "Achievement System" would probably need to get a bit more systematic attention.
(Meaning a balanced and logical amount of "Achievements" for gameplay.)

 

[Schmiddie]

hm, this is indeed a lot of work, although we can use the existing ones - such new achievement graphics are a lot of work.

 

[Nightinggale]

The "Golden Years" could e.g. last 5 just turns and give additional +10% Production Bonus.
It could e.g. also cause a flat +2 for "Happiness" while the "Golden Years" last.

If we do this, I propose making the golden years function by adding a CivEffect and then removing it once the golden years are over. That way we have all of the effect in xml and the code is much easier to reuse later. It's also the way to do it when considering performance.

I'm still not sure about the feature though. How do we get achievement points? Are you referring to all the "first to build 5 docks" type of quests?

 

[raystuttgart]

How do we get achievement points?

By the "Achievement System".
It is those "small pictures and texts" that pop up:

• "You have met 3 other Native Nations."
• "Your first Galleon."
• "Your first 2 Scouts."
• ...

The "Achievement System" does not give any rewards at all currently.
It is just for a bit of flavour.

It is completely independent of "Python Event / Quest System".

I'm still not sure about the feature though.

It is basically just to have a WTP specific feature similar to "Golden Age" of Civ4BTS. I always liked that.

If we do this, I propose making the golden years function by adding a CivEffect and then removing it once the golden years are over. That way we have all of the effect in xml and the code is much easier to reuse later. It's also the way to do it when considering performance.

Sounds ok for me.

 

[raystuttgart]

hm, this is indeed a lot of work, although we can use the existing ones - such new achievement graphics are a lot of work.

Well, yes we of course use the existing ones.

But they have been created a bit "chaotically" without having in mind that it could become a gameplay feature.
Meaning there was no systematic approach for it to e.g. have a well balanced coverage of our other game features.

That is why I currently feel:
If we use this for "Golden Years", we should take a look at the list of Achievements and try to structure it systematically.
When we do so, we might notice, that a few more Achievements (e.g. for features that currently do not have an Achievement) should be created.

But again, I currently do not know.
(I have not invested the time to check and structure Achievements systematically.)

...such new achievement graphics are a lot of work.

I know. Especially since you always invested lots of time to create theses scenes using ingame materials.
(For me, it would also be ok to use atmosperhic images though that simply fit the time period. :dunno.)

 

[devolution]

I assume that it will be much easier for players to "chase" achievements than AI players ? What about the natives, shouldn't they get something ?
We have to carefully balance this feature so that it doesn't just cause even more "yield inflation" (aka "moar stuff").

Perhaps we could tie this in with a victory condition of some sort ?

 

[raystuttgart]

I assume that it will be much easier for players to "chase" achievements than AI players?

Yes of course.

AI will not be able to use it strategically, but it also gets Achievements "accidently" anyways.
(E.g. "Build first ...", "Meet 3 Native Tribes", "Meet all Eurpeans", "Discover the Pacific", ...)

What about the natives, shouldn't they get something ?

I would not waste time and effort for Achievements that "only Natives" can get.
Natives are not the "main actors", they are just "side casts".

And they really hardly "develop" at all. (They do not build Buildings, they do not acquire specific Units, they do not ...)
Quite the contrary - they start getting fewer and less powerful as the Europeans expand.

We have to carefully balance this feature so that it doesn't just cause even more "yield inflation" (aka "moar stuff").

I agree but that can be balanced easily by e.g. "Achievement Points" (given by Achievements and needed for "Golden Years").
Also the benefits and duration of "Golden Years" should not be overexagerated.

Perhaps we could tie this in with a victory condition of some sort ?

Would be possible.
We could have a new Victory Condition "Achievements" (that triggers at a certain amount of Achievements collected).

 

[raystuttgart]

So ok, this here seems to be accepted as well.
(At least the poll looks like it and there were not vetos.)

It is however not my current priority, since I have bigger fish to fry at the moment.
(I consider it "nice to have" and "something small in between when I am bored".)

Maybe this is even something that one of the new modders might be interested to try.
(The programming itself is really simple.)

 

[Schmiddie]

Hm, maybe the achievement system is something that might be brought together with a tech tree and a kind of "era" system - i.e. if an achievement has been reached, new techs will be unlocked...something like this.

 

[raystuttgart]

Hm, maybe the achievement system is something that might be brought together with a tech tree and a kind of "era" system - i.e. if an achievement has been reached, new techs will be unlocked...something like this.

Let us not unnecessary mix or try to abuse the systems.
(Each of them has its own purpose, its own mechanisms and its own triggers.)

Achievements is normally just a "Collecting Images for the Gallery". Purely cosmetical.
--> It is extremely simple though to programm a little hook into it, that simply calls other logic every time a new Achievement is gained. (I will hardly touch the Achievement core logic itself.)
--> For the primititve and simple concept I have in mind for "Golden Ages" it is good enough. (All I need is a system that can make a simple call to another more complex DLL function.)
--> It is however definitely not designed as any "Progress System" because it is too static.

Eras is basically just a "Music" and "Art Style" switch that originally would simply check for "Key-Techs". Purely cosmetical.
--> It was abused in DoaNE because they did not want or could not implement Techs and their concept was simple enough to work that way.
--> I will obstain from giving any further comments on this, because I would sound too critical.
--> Eras can by default not be triggered for "one nation only", they are global.

Techs is the actual "Progress System" and much much more powerful. (Lots of interweaving into other real functional Systems.)
--> We will have progress over time that is reflected in both graphics and functionality by default.
--> We will at some point implement a solution much better than everything comparable ever done in Civ4Col.
--> Tech progress is specific for a single player, not global.

Please trust your programmers if they tell you that Techs is the much much better concept for anything that should reflect Progress.
(It is much more flexible, better visualized, more powerful, more performant, more differentiated, better integrated with other systems, ...)

 

[Schmiddie]

Sorry, but in this case I disagree with you , ray. It would not be an unnecessary mix. To my view achievements as they currently exist would no longer exist and in combination with for example techs and eras it would be the graphical part of the tech development - each time when you reach a new tech this might be shown by an achievement graphic.

To my view these parts can be brought in line with each other respectively they could work very good in combination.

 

[raystuttgart]

To my view achievements as they currently exist would no longer exist ...

What?

Trust me, the Achievement System and all Achievements we have will continue to exist.
(Do not worry about it, it is technically completely independent and really has nothing to do with Techs or Eras.)

Why throw the Achievement System away?
(It also exists in Civ4BTS together with Techs, Eras, ... to my knowledge.)

An Achievement is trigger if you have a certain amount of something.
e.g.

• 3 Units of XXX
• 3 Buildings of YYY
• 500 Gold
• 10 Contacts to other Europeans
• ...

This has absolutely nothing to do with Techs, which is the technical and social Prorgress System.
And it does not count Units, Buildings, Gold or anything similar. It is normally triggered by some kind of "Research Yield".
(Unless we heavily change the default implementation for which there is no reason and thus no intention to do so.)

... graphical part of the tech development ...

What?

The Tech System can trigger movies and display images totally by itself.
(It has never needed the Achievement System for that and never will.)

Implementing the Tech System will change absolutely nothing about the Achievement System.
(They really have nothing to do with each other.)

We can simply copy / adapt the Tech System of Civ4BTS (as design pattern).
Of couse we will add a lot of WTP specific stuff as we always did.

-----

I really do not understand why you insist on mixing technically totally independent Systems with each other with absolutely no need.
Technically nothing you say makes any sense to me and I thus do not understand where this discussion is supposed to lead to.
Maybe @Nightinggale understands though what you are trying to say ...

 

[Schmiddie]

Ray,

I'm sorry, but at the moment I just don't find your way comprehensible. Why are you trying to lecture me here about such things? I thought we were having an open discussion, but apparently you only seem to accept your point of view.

I don't want to mix anything here. I just wanted to contribute to this (open?) discussion. My understanding of your approach was that you want to completely abolish the existing achievement system because it's just a graphical thing, but otherwise has no further use in the game. In your first post you wrote, "Currently the Achievement System is quite boring" - so my impression was that you want to abolish or change it. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding.

I'm still trying to understand here what exactly you want to implement. We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. But I don't like the way you're conducting the discussion at the moment. I didn't just join yesterday either and I don't let myself be treated like a beginner. I just posted a few ideas and you dismiss me here like a beginner. I don't like that and I'm not going to continue this discussion on that basis.

 

[raystuttgart]

... so my impression was that you want to abolish or change it.
...
Maybe it was just a misunderstanding.

Yes, it probably was.

I would never "abolish" it.
(Sorry if you thought that was my intention.)

All I want to do is to add a little gameplay purpose.
(Just have it become a little more than "just cosmetical" display of nice images.)

This is my intention:

It could however become much more:
"Enhanced Achievement System that triggers Golden Years"

Nothing more and nothing less.
(The current functionality of the Achievement System will continue to exist.)

I just wanted to contribute to this (open?) discussion
...
I don't let myself be treated like a beginner.

Sorry but I really did not understand that the discussion about Techs and Eras was about brainstorming ideas.
I thought we were having a technical discussion between modders.

It was thus totally confusing me and I was trying to get clarity in this confusion again and explain how the different systems technically work.
So sorry again if it sounded like lecturing - it kind of was because I thought I had to.

I misread some parts of it as technical claims (that the systems would actually work like that) and was thus totally shocked about "obviously wrong information" being spread to community.
(That is why I reacted as strongly as "Technically nothing you say makes any sense to me and thus I do not understand ..." .)

I am probalby simply tired already today ...
(Have been sitting too long.)

Summary:
I really excuse for the way I formulated and lectured.
It was absolutely not appropriate.

 

[Schmiddie]

to bring the discussion back to the original theme:

I like the idea of "golden years" and changed my vote.

Just a question: wouldn't it be nice to have some opposite effects as well to make game more challenging? I mean something like "oh my god dear player, but an indian uprising has harrassed your colonies" or "Crop failures have brought famine to the settlers. Immigration suffers as a result"

 

[raystuttgart]

Just a question: wouldn't it be nice to have some opposite effects as well to make game more challenging?

General thoughts about gameplay and immersion:

Actually a really nice idea, I simply did not think about.
(Just thought about "Golden Ages" of Civ4BTS with positive effects ...)

It is immersive and makes sense from gameplay perspective to have negative effects.
(And considering the "design rule of balancing a feature", it is good game design.)

Logically thinking such Nation Achievements cause:

• Own Nation to get proud and happy.
• Other Nations to get jealous and angry
  
• (Global Market to react on it)

----

Thinking about reasonable compromise between gameplay and efforts:

It however makes the concept more complex and thus more effort to implement than the current one.
If too many effects are needed, programming effort and risk of this originally small feature will explode ...

I would however need at least one more modifier (or maybe max 2) so also negative effects can be implement reasonably.
And the negative effects need to be triggered more directly and more selectively so they match immersive gameplay.

... <brain working> ... ... <generating first ideas but effort is still too high> ... ... <generating first idea without overexagerating effort> ...

e.g. Diplomacy Effects / Attitude Malus
(effect duration by random between min 10 turns and max 30 turns - each time such Achievement is triggered)

• Player founds his 3rd / 5th / 10th city / ... --> -1 Attitude of Natives towards Player (because player is expanding and thus taking land)
  
• Player has 3 Line Infantery / 5 Ship of the Line / ... --> -1 Attitude of Europeans towards Player (because the player starts getting a military thread)
  
• Player trades 300 Coats / 300 Rum / 300 Guns / ... --> -1 Attitude of King towards Player (because player gets economically independent by producing "manufactured goods" by his own)
  
• ...

----

The only other thing I could currently think fo that makes sense would be "market reactions".
(e.g. buying prices or selling prices for Goods in Europe increasing or decreasing.)

Of course these effects would be temporary as well like the effects above.

I will simply see if I will need it or not to make this interesting and immersive.
(This concept may still change a little once I really start implementing.)

But more than 2 modifiers (in Achievement XML and according logic in DLL) for negative effects of Achievements to balance "Golden Ages" I will not do.
(I need to keep my efforts reasonable.)

----

Backloop to recheck original "Golden Age" balancing if it needs adjustments:

Since we now also have negative effects to balance, the positive effect of a "Golden Age" can also become stronger.

New Balancing of Effect of a Golden Age and introduction of a small randomization:
(Effects listed from "strongest" to "weakest".)

• In 25 % of the Golden Ages --> +10% Production Bonus for min 5 turns to max 10 turns
  
• In 25% of the Golden Ages --> +2 flat Happiness Bonus for min 5 turns to max 10 turn
• In 25% of the Golden Ages --> +20% Bells Bonus for 5 turns to max 10 turns
• In 25% of the Golden Ages --> +20% Crosses Bonus for 5 turns to max 10 turns

So 2 randoms in there:

• reward type random (some stronger, some weaker)
  
• reward duration random (sometimes longer, sometimes shorter)

Reminder:

A "Golden Age" needs accumulation of increasing numbers of "Achievement" points.
(Every "Golden Age" needs more "Achievement Points" than the previous.)

-----

Finetuning Overall Balancing and avoiding Exploits:

So the temporary "Production Bonus" or temporary "Happiness Bonus" effect (of an accumulated Golden Age),
will be balanced by several small temporary "Attitude Malus" effects (triggered by specific Achievements).

• Both gameplay sides of effects (postive and negative) will be temporary
  
• Balancing is "asymetric" (one big accumulated positive effect vs. many small directly triggered small negative effects)
• Avoiding "negative effects" and thus abusing the system will be very hard with reasonable gameplay (since expansion and trade are needed normally)
• Duration and effects wil be randomized (with thresholds) to make it less predictable

-----

Summary:

It makes sense for gameplay and to my opinion can be done immersively.
If we do not overexaggerate the additional little bit more effort is still doable.

 

[raystuttgart]

Just bumping "ACCEPTED" old concepts so they get further up in the queue again.