Espionage etiquite in MP game

zarakand

Prince
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I played my first couple BTS games online today and had a great time. I won some and lost some. However, in one game in particular when I knew I was loosing but could not feasibly be invaded for a while I decided to attempt to mess up the lead civ via espionage.

I halted all research jacked up the espionage points and sent over hordes of spies. As a result I was able to hold him back and most likely cost him the game. I can't stress enough how powerful espionage can be with changing civics constantly. Obviously he was rather annoyed and considered my actions malicious since I knew I couldn't win. Initially, I thought that's stupid its a game. Not every civilization is going to be a super power and be able to win the game.

What do you guys think? Do you ever use espionage in your mp games? I never do in single player games. Would you consider it cheating to use it to hinder an opponent even when you its obvious doing so will not help you win the game? I'd love to hear various responses. Thanks.
 
Would you attack a civ simply to weaken him, even though you know you can't win the game?

I think the answer to that would be a yes, so I don't see why anything would be different for the situation that you mentioned. Did he try to diplomatically resolve the issue with you? That's one possible out right there.
 
No there was a lot of cursing, it reminded me of why I stopped playing online. However, I had very positive experiences in the other games I played.
 
I admit, sending non - spiritual civilization in constant revolt can be a pain. But this game is all about ability to adapt, MP or SP. Did he at least try to match esp points and run counteresp missions? As a bigger civ it should be even easier than cursing...

Just yesterday i survived only thanks to spies. My opponent was way more advanced than myself, but I had at least 1.5 larger country and practically finished essential buildings, catching up in techs with my late-rifles and his almost-tanks. Then he completed Manhattan Project.

Despite I couldn't see that coming, it was the time esp points (I was throwing only at him for half the game) did their job. I managed to sent circa 10 spies into his land, go for only uranium and 4th one succeeded. He managed to complete only two ICBMs and by the time they hit me I had shelters in every important city. My spies got rid of uranium a couple times more, then finally I put first Tact Nuke in a fort near his border and added fallout on the top of this. My poor spies died before I could realise where I left them :rolleyes: And then, instead using his almost modern-armor army on my meat shields he simply quit.

The point is, he had massive esp points, the graph was mind-blowing. Yet he neither sabotaged my uranium, nor sent me into revolution madness. I admit, I simply forgot about such possibility. Assuming I could afford it, I would not hesistate though. "Nuke or be nuked" scenario doesn't leave much choice :).
 
Ideally, you play to win.

Part of diplomacy is doing one's best to minimize the odds of losing players trying to screw them without leaving.

The one thing that really bothers me is when someone just...doesn't vote after someone quits...that ruins it for everyone.
 
Yeah we need two fixes for 3.18:

- "votescreen now has 2/5/whatever minutes timer after which any still undecided player is autokicked"
- "voting is no longer unanonimous - with three or more players one vote against all is overruled by default after previous timer"

BAM! In an eyeblink most of the trolls go back to lobby or whatever pit that spawned them. In worst case they choose to appear in pairs from that moment :lol:
 
prze, sounds like some pretty awesome strategy by you. Well played....
since i thought this thread was about espionage ettiquette itself..
i'd say its rude to send in spies into people's territory where the both of you think you are 'allied'..
i'd hate the screen to pop up saying explicitly that it was my civs spy that got caught.
i would however send in great spies to inflitrate, being able to see ur opponents cities throughout the game is invaluable, it will warn you of any advanced preperations for attack..
and re your final post:
the vote screen system is brokeennnnnnnnnnnm, civ4 has been out for years and they still havent sorted out this madness. i hope civ5 has a much more intuitive vote screen system...even a half decent ping monitor in the lobby might be nice....being able to see the people who are serial quitters too...
i've lost count of the times people have sworn at me just for me taking their civ, or retiring/quitting without saying GG...not enough mutual respect me thinks.
 
I think its situational.

If the player has treated you badly in the game (either on board or in chat) by all means get as much revenge as possible.

But if you pick on a random player just to ennoy him/her without any follow up plan from yourself or from a possible ally, I think you should retire.
 
Heh :blush:, let's just say I learned a thing or two (thousands) thanks to this forum :rolleyes:.

if you pick on a random player just to annoy him/her without any follow up plan from yourself or from a possible ally, I think you should retire

I wish this simple rule was used more often in general sense. Could work wonders especially with useless wars no one can (or want to) win. Not to mention strange behaviour of DoW on everyone when quitting. I'm not sure why, but some people think it appropriate :crazyeye:
 
Rather strange rule there. If I can attack at turn 10 and have a shot at taking the guy out I will. If I fail, I just park my warrior in his land, usually on a forested hill to annoy him. Many cry foul, as if I just killed him and myself. But soon it becomes apparent to them that early war does not slow me down in the least. One game today for example I had the guy I tried to take out end up sending what 5 warriors into my land... what a poor bastard, I'm sure 50 hammers spend better elsewhere. While all he managed to do was waste 50 hammers, in the same time I got 2 workers 2 archer 4 warriors and a settler. While killing 4 of his warrior in my land...

On the flip-side however I had someone attack me today that had no hope of even taking 1 city. Maybe he thought he could do something. And it's true I couldn't remove his laughable army from my land instantly due to having built library, grainary, barracks, and courthouse in each of my 8 cities. I still had enough spears in all my cities to prevent him from taking it with his stack of what 4 elephants one vulture and 6 catapults. All he managed to do was tick me off by pillaging 3 towns, which really was nothing of consequence. He also got one worker. So yes that was more of a frustrating thing. I killed his army and the units he sent in after them in next 7 turns. another 15 turns later I took 3 of his cities, which was more than half his empire. Including his capital. The game was pretty much over then as he was last remaining human player. Rest have thrown in the towel or been killed.
 
It's rather impossible to tell if there's a shot at all at turn 10 with a lone warrior. Even if there's no visible warrior in cap, it's a pure gamble, for it could appear the very next turn. There's no "planning a war" with one or two warriors, that's russian roulette in leader-playing sense. With espionage or open borders war can get at least a bit predictable. And this rule states clearly "with no follow-up plan". One could notice choking IS a follow-up plan. At least compared to quitting. Or dying to a backstabbing neighbour.

That last one will (quite often) result in screaming "FFA! that's FFA you ****!", which is rather hilarious considering FFA means " I don't care if you are at war, I play for my own success". But that last one is also rare, so, sadly, there's no need to involve it. The most common failure of such "war" is the defender being unable to negotiate anything. That's the problem. The gamblers with one warrior are just a minor annoyance. With everyone ignoring 1000-years war following failed warrior rush it's (just) another RTS skirmish, which some players may simply like (for unknown reason :crazyeye:). But with the attacker unable to admit this 1000 years brought next to nothing, it's just a waste of time unless defender enjoys occasional mass production of archers and other no-resource units (in worst case scenario). Catapults will eventually end such choke, but it's hard to see a winner catching up with the others in techs and GPT after prolonged "mostly-units-building" period. War is won, game is lost, congratulations.

But that's the "analysis" of pretty uncommon cases, involving determined defender and determined attacker. With everyone already dead or left, as you wrote, I admit it's a moot point. One could wonder how many left because of similar reasons. Because in practice one side throws a towel within few turns and leaves war-of-gamble to AI. If initial rush is lost, it's the attacker that leaves and looks for another game. If initial rush is a success, defender dies or leaves - it does not matter much with one-two cities. But if the main (or the only) part of a plan is to force bored (try not to be, while having to build endless stream of garrison units and hit Enter) defender out of a game with no other actions but mass choking and no tangible prospects of winning, then it's not exactly a "war plan". It's a distant cousin of spamming the chat, maxing every turn and stalling on every possible occasion. Yep, in such cases people will leave too and it will have a little in common with gameplay as well. But then again, it's just an "if someone's intent is winning purely through boring the hell out of an opponent" case. Not exacly possible to prove unless someone states so :rolleyes:

That bigger war you wrote about involved way more than initial units. And there's hardly an excuse not to determine own chances before attacking, when at least a power graph can give a hint. Spies? I never heard of them :rolleyes: While I won't share so detailed story, I can only say it's been a major disappointment for me so many times. Neighbour gathers attack forces => attacks VERY soon => 1. SOD dies attacking/defending; 2. SOD withdraws and peace negotiations start (yeah, in a what, 5% cases?); 3. I die unprepared (well, more than 5% cases :lol:); 4. We both enjoy stone age while rest of the world is polishing their knights (most of the time if I feel like whipping some units while not facing overwhelming odds and/or early catapults). The point is, how many of such useless wars are started because someone feels bored? No strategy, no some detailed analysis of choking efficiency (unless ex post of course, everyone can play a wiser man then), just a pure boredom. Not exactly different than DoW on everyone before quitting. Simply quitting a bit later in most cases of failure. That's why I agree with TeraHammer - rather than start a war without a single piece of information - retire. And in case of boredom - retire, period.

Espionage won't solve that last issue as it can't fix someone's character or boredom. But it is the best way to prevent senseless suicide. I have a feeling we're talking about different games though. I'm not a fan of "always war" setting or 1vs1/2vs2/3vs3etc. scenarios and in such cases early, half-blind rush is sometimes essential.
 
Shoulda told him to stop being a crybaby.
 
I dont have BTS (Thinking about picking it up though) but I always play to win. I'll often have people send me a private message and ask to be allies and I say "SURE!" THen when I build up my army I invade them they cry, whine, moan and scream to all the other players my injustice.

I guess it teaches them the life lesson never to trust anyone but yourself.
 
"The world considers you a villain" should apply here at least :D

But honestly, who believes in eternal alliances anyway? Not to mention that games with backstabbing as a feature are most likely to be really memorable if at least few players actually act like diplomats and use this crying and screaming for setting up a temporal coalition.

In BTS espionage will make such backstab harder though. Unless someone is extremely naive and spends esp points on every civ except "friendly neighbour" :rolleyes:
 
I think espionage wouldn't be in the game if not to be exploited. I've lost games because of espionage, but I've won games with it too. I say do whatever is in your power to bring down the leaders.
 
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